Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin Yank

Rob: And I'm Rob Lloyd.

Kevin: And we are here one last
time to talk about Star Trek: Lower

Decks, season three, episode 10.

The Stars At Night was our season finale.

Rob: And what a ripper it was.

Kevin: Look, it was, it was alright.

In my mind, it was not one of the
season's strongest, but this has

been such a strong season that even
a week episode is a strong episode.

This had a lot going for it.

There was a lot of spectacle
for a season finale.

It felt like a season finale in
the way that it felt like a little

movie, uh, with all that all the
production value brought to the table.

But I think it continued the trend from
last week where it still felt to me, not

like an episode about our lower decks
characters, but about a story told on

a, the bigger canvas of the Federation,
about The Cerritos and, we learned this

episode, the California class starships.

So I think I agree with you now, Rob,
I think you've called it that Lower

Decks is transitioning from a story
about ensigns that never see any of

the action because they're working
below decks, to a show about the lower

decks of Starfleet, the lower class
ships, in this case, the Cerritos.

And in a sense, I suppose that may
have been inevitable, like Starfleet

officers, at least the good ones,
they grow, they get promoted.

And so maybe that was always gonna
happen here, but I think I expected this

show to be a little more like frozen
in time, the way many sitcoms are.

That you know, the family
around the couch never changes.

No one ever moves out.

No one ever goes to college.

It is frozen in time.

And I guess I was expecting seven seasons
of seeing these people scrub the decks.

Rob: Yeah, it's, it, it is interesting.

I mean, it's, it, it shows, uh, that
this was the next inevitable step,

because there's a specific reason why
they chose the Cali class to be the

ship that these lower deckers were on,
and they've, they're starting to really

ingrain that into the whole show now.

And now it is a part of it.

That, you know, this entire class is
the lower deck within the Federation.

And so even the people who
are on the bridge are working

their way for recognition.

And so, it's not one of the, the big
ships, it is the one that, you know,

uh, Captain Freeman has to work so
hard and fight so hard for recognition,

especially within that hierarchy.

Kevin: I'll be curious whether, come
season four, it goes back to the formula,

we return to the lower decks, or if
this is a more permanent progression.

In the same way that Voyager became
about Seven of Nine, a character

that didn't exist at the start of
the show, maybe Lower Decks will be

about the Cali class, a ship that
we had only seen one of for most of

the first, few seasons of this show.

Uh, but we'll see.

I think I'm, I'm on board either way,
but Lower Decks, in hindsight, it

did start so strong and it did give
us something so fresh and different

from what we get from other shows,
I do mourn that loss a little bit.

Rob: Right.

Yeah.

I mean, I really liked it.

I know cuz um, I love that
whole camaraderie of all

the Cali class coming in.

I love that, you know, beautiful
cliche line of the going,

You can't do this alone.

That's why I called all of them.

And, you know, wham, wham, whamm, wham.

They're all, all coming in and just,
they're going, the Calis are there to

support one another and a great Jack
Quaid doing an amazing job listing off

all the, all, all the California cities.

Kevin: Yep.

Uh, it was great.

I just, I think it is a shame that
Brad Boimler now seems to be a minor

character at the conn rather than the
protagonist of this series, or one of

the two protagonists of this series.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's very much a case of, um, yeah,
expanding out that the, the bridge crew

to now become a part of this larger
ensemble, uh, finding that time for

everyone to get their moment to shine.

And so because they've had
so much focus, you know.

It, it did seem a little bit
weird at the end when Migleemo

had his moment with Tendi.

I'm going, um, What's Tendi
really done this episode?

Did she get her moment?

You kind of wedged this in.

Kevin: Something, something, science.

Rob: Something, something, science.

But then she has a beautiful run
in with the, with the, the Vulcan.

That was a little bit ham fisted.

Kevin: Yes T'Lyn coming in as had
been promised in the behind the

scenes stuff from the beginning of
this season, like Mike McMahan has

been saying in interviews, Oh, that's
not the last we're gonna see of our

Vulcan crew and, and, and T'Lyn.

They're coming back for season three.

And I was expecting a whole
other, uh, you know, across ships,

across races Lower Decks episode.

But what they were promising was a
very last minute arrival of her as a

new regular character for next season.

Rob: And you know what that means?

Now they can play baseball.

It's great.

It's good.

It's good.

Kevin: Uh, judging this episode
on its own terms, though, rather

than wishing for what it isn't, I
think it was a really strong one.

Some of the plot does not quite
hold up to close scrutiny.

Like I do not understand why the Texas
class automated ships being successful

means the Cerritos, or the California
class is to be decommissioned.

Like that seems like a very
odd, if this then that.

They do hang a lantern on it a little bit
with, uh, with Captain Freeman saying, uh,

oh, I, I came up with this mission race.

Oh, I made it up in the spot.

Don't, don't think of it too closely.

Like there is a bit of that don't
take this too seriously projected

over this whole episode, but, uh,
yeah, it, it was a little strange.

Rob: It is very much a case of, uh,
it happens a little bit in, uh, the

Steven Moffat era of Doctor Who, which
is sort of like, it's the, uh, the

morning after of, of storytelling.

Um, when you're sort of like,
in that moment you're there

going, This is incredible.

This is amazing.

Oh, it's so heightened
emotion, and it's incredible.

It works.

And then the morning after you
go, Oh God, what have I done?

Oh God.

Your, your, your, your mind and your logic
goes through the walk of shame of going,

Oh, how could I be convinced by that?

Oh, why did I believe
that was so dramatic?

Why did

Kevin: There's a little bit of that here.

The whole idea of automated
ships, uh, takes us back to a, uh,

original series episode called The
Ultimate Computer, in which Dr.

Daystrom uses the USS Enterprise as a test
site for a, an automation system that will

run the ship without any crew members.

And ultimately that computer, which it
is revealed has been patterned off of Dr.

Daystrom's own brain, uh, goes crazy,
destroys some ships, and has to be

forced out of control of the ship.

Uh, as usual, Kirk convinces the
computer to shut itself down, uh,

as punishment for its own crimes.

But the idea that that occurred, uh,
roughly a hundred years before this

episode in Star Trek history, and
seemingly they have learned nothing.

Uh, and the, the reference is there
to be seen, because the screen of the

automated Texas class ships in this
episode, the, the kind of, uh, blinking

lines, horizontal and vertical lines,
that is the screen of the M-5 multitronic

unit in The Ultimate Computer in TOS.

Rob: Listeners, if you could only
see the physical representation

that Kevin Yank is doing right now.

Kevin: Dance of Geometry.

Rob: And also the fans
of Interpretive dance.

It's a, it's, it's a great
combination of maths and art.

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: They finally, um,
sorted out, uh, Rutherford.

So we found out, um, that it was
all, uh, the admiral's fault.

Kevin: Okay, so Rutherford, his implant
has an AI in it, and it's the same

code that runs these ships, because
Rutherford programmed the ships.

I, I just don't, I don't

Rob: And it had something to do
with, um, was it, uh, Badgy as well?

Kevin: Yeah, well, he used his own
code from his implant to create Badgy.

And apparently that code also is what, in
his forgotten life, he used to create the

prototypes of these Texas class ships.

But, Rutherford is a cyborg.

I don't understand why that
means he has an AI in his head.

Rob: Yes.

It's a wave of the hand and the captain
going, Oh, I'm making it up as I go along.

Kevin: In a, in a sense, I'm kind
of glad that this storyline is over,

because if it was never going to
make sense, I'd rather put it behind

us and move on with the character.

Rob: Yes, very, very true.

Um, and, uh, Rutherford's having a
good moment of like, you know, you're

keeping the cybernetic implant?

And it goes all dark
going, Plus it's cool!

Kevin: But it's so cool.

Rob: And my talk last week about
how's this gonna be healed?

This is like,

Kevin: Mmm.

Rob: Uh, a mother disowning her daughter.

Kevin: Yep.

Mariner comes back and
says, It was all my fault.

I handled it worse than

anyone.

Rob: And the beautiful line of
going, I'm sorry I didn't trust you.

And he goes, Well, I've kind of been
spending the last couple of years, proving

to you that you shouldn't trust me.

Um, I'm there going, That is
very mature of you, Mariner.

I, I, maybe it's a little bit of

Kevin: Almost too mature.

I think we've happened on the
conspiracy for next season,

is Mariner's been replaced.

Rob: Mariner's Been replaced by a, an
ancient sarcophagus, mask led, um, spirit.

I really loved Boimler's arc with
Shaxs and how emotional Shaxs

got and how up upset he was.

I love how emotionally in touch he is.

And his parade of honor, his
march of honor as he's running

down and they're all, All right.

Well done, sir.

And he goes Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Kevin: To eject the Warp Core,
which is also, it's not just Shaxs

who loves to eject the warp core.

Nerds everywhere love the
idea of ejecting warp cores.

We could do a whole episode around all the
times they almost ejected the warp core.

Rob: Exactly.

Kevin: I love the little, uh, montage
before the mission race where the Cerritos

was trying to like do some last minute
training to make themselves ready for it.

And Ransom's like, Here's
how you sit on a chair.

You throw your leg over
it, and then you sit.

And, T'Ana out of nowhere has a riding
crop now that she carries around.

I'm not sure I've seen that before.

If it isn't new, I noticed it for the
first time today, but it didn't go away.

She was carrying it around for
the whole rest of the episode.

Rob: That's a whole other
Holosuite program with Shaxs

that we haven't seen yet.

Kevin: Yes.

And the first good advice
we've gotten from Dr.

Migleemo.

Tendi, that's cantaloupe talk.

I want you to be a can-aloupe.

Rob: It took me, I had to, I
had to pause, go back and just

to go, did he just, just, I

Um, so yeah, I, I had
a lot of fun with this.

The battle scenes at the
end were genuinely exciting.

Like,

Kevin: they were really good.

Rob: the skid out of warp when they
eject the warp core and the spinning

around, and then they're, yeah.

Kevin: I can't believe I didn't mention
it before now, but this, this entire

episode being centered around Douglas
Station, this beautiful starbase like

my favorite model apart from maybe
Enterprise D in all of Star Trek history.

We got, we got to see it from every angle.

We got to, you know, weave in
the, in between the towers of the

office complex spikes on its top.

We, we saw it up close in more detail than
we have ever seen that kind of starbase,

and uh, that was a delight for me.

Rob: Yeah, we saw its defense
mechanisms as well, and

Kevin: We, we saw its insides hanging
out after it was peppered by phaser

Rob: That's what I was
trying to figure out.

Has, has that space station
been attacked in that way.

I mean, obviously in Star Trek IV, um,
the probe goes past it and just blacks

out, but it's, I don't think I've ever

Kevin: Never been under direct attack.

No.

No.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it was fully under attack.

Like we saw people get explooded
all over the place, Kevin.

Kevin: Yes.

Here's my petty detail of the week,
which is at the climax of this battle,

when Captain Freeman gives a command,
I think, to either ram the ships or

abandon ship, something like that.

She gives the terrible order we don't
want to have to carry out, and Mariner

swoops in just in the nick of time.

Mariner's voice comes over the
comm and says, Belay that order.

So does Mariner on a non Starfleet
ship have the ability to just listen

in to whatever Captain Freeman is
saying on the bridge of the Cerritos

to countermand an order like that?

Um, these are the things that do
not hold up on second viewing.

Rob: That's, Yeah.

That, that is, that is the
morning after of going.

Wait a minute.

Okay.

It's a cool moment, but let's
just go back and work on the

logistics and the logic of this.

So, I mean, the, these, these
future archeologists are good,

but they're not that good.

All right.

So, um, you know, I was so, boisterous
at making grand statements about how

this will change the Federation and
the continuity of this franchise.

And of course it's a
conspiracy with a bad admiral.

Those damn admirals!

They give anyone an
admiralcy in the Federation.

Come on.

Kevin: So we are gonna talk about other
memorable bad admirals here today.

Rob: Uh, would you like
to go first, Kevin?

Who is the bad admiral that you
have, uh, drawn attention to first?

Kevin: Do you want a
good one or a bad one?

Like a good bad admiral
or a bad, bad admiral?

Rob: Oh, see, I went to bad, bad admirals.

Kevin: Oh, right.

I'll start on the bright
note with a good bad admiral.

This is the time they did it right.

This is Admiral Satie from the
Next Generation episode, The

Drumhead, season four, episode 21.

It is revealed that a Klingon exchange
officer that was on board the Enterprise,

uh, may have been responsible for
the sabotage of a system on the ship.

And admiral Satie comes
aboard to sort things out.

What's going on on this ship?

I'm gonna get to the bottom of it.

And she is an admiral, uh, and
has all the weight of that.

But she is not one of those admirals who
like commands ships and things like that.

She is an investigator.

She is here, uh, as almost a, a
judge, jury and executioner to conduct

the internal investigation of how
did things go wrong on the onboard

the Enterprise, uh, in this case.

And she, she gets carried away.

She, uh, sees conspiracies everywhere.

She suspects everyone.

She, uh, unmasks an officer who it, uh,
who is a perfectly innocent officer,

um, who is posing as half human, half
Vulcan, but she reveals that he's

half human, half Romulan and destroys
his career in Starfleet for it.

But he is a completely innocent guy.

He just lied on his CV in
order to get into Starfleet.

And, and that moment when she, she
ruins the career of this person who had

nothing to do with the investigation
is the turning point of the episode at

which Picard goes, She's going too far.

This is a witch hunt.

I need to stop her.

Uh, and like a number of other really
great, uh, Star Trek episodes, this

ultimately ends in a court room drama,
where Picard turns the proceedings around

on the judge and reveals the judge for
being the completely maniacal out of

control power-mad person that she is.

Um, yeah.

And the observing admiral stands
up and, and kind of leaves.

And that's like the, there is no moment
of, well this is completely over with.

Like it is the subtle thing of the
admiral who was like quietly lending

his credence to the entire proceedings,
he just stands up and walks out.

And, and Admiral Satie is
just like devastated by this.

You just see all the air go out
of her and, um, it is beautiful

character work by an amazing actor.

And, uh, I, I love this evil Admiral.

Admiral Norah Satie is
played by Jean Simmons.

Rob: Is that like the Jean Simmons from
like, um, Spartacus and Guys and Dolls?

Kevin: Yes, that's right.

Rob: Oh my God, it's Jean Simmons!

Kevin: Absolutely.

Um, yeah, so if you're gonna get an
evil admiral, cast, an Academy award

winner, I think is what we have learned.

What have you got for me?

Rob: It's a favorite of ours, we've
talked about a couple of times.

A certain movie that doesn't get
as much recognition as it should.

Um, but yeah, there's a, there's a
nasty bad admiral all going out for his

own good, um, to harness the fountain
of youth that is there and through

deception and taking the people, the
rightful inhabitants of that planet away.

Uh, we're looking at Admiral Doherty
from Star Trek: Insurrection.

Kevin: Yeah.

We've watched a bit of, uh, Insurrection
recently for another episode, so I was, I

got a nice refresher on Admiral Dougherty.

I agree, he does not get the praise
he deserves for the subtle job he

does of playing this character.

Rob: Very much so.

Normally the admiral would be,
sorta like the puppet master behind

everything, but it turns out you
think, Oh my God, it's all him.

And then you find out, Actually no, he's
just, uh, a pawn of, uh, you know, F.

Murray Abraham, who's

Kevin: He's in too deep.

He, he got into it for the right
reasons and then just small

concession by small concession.

He ended up being

Rob: Death by a thousand cuts.

Yeah.

And then gets his face
contorted to all get out.

Wow.

Kevin: Yeah.

I think that death is a, the opposite of
a death by a thousand cuts in some way.

Death by a thousand, pulling
in different directions.

Rob: It is, is by far one of the, uh, most
gross forms of death that we have seen

in Star Trek from what I can remember.

Kevin: Yeah.

Pretty gruesome.

Rob: Um, but yeah, it's a, a subtle
reveal, and I like those, like I've

mentioned, that, that layer upon
layer of, you know, of how, yeah.

And how he has evolved from,
You think it's all him, but he's

actually just a, uh, you know, he's
been undone by his own goodwill.

You know, the road to hell
is paved by good intentions.

Kevin: The, uh, the opening of that
movie with Data going, uh, a little

haywire because his emotion chip uh,
objects to the ethics of the situation

going on on the planet is lovely.

Like we know Data is in one
of his most vulnerable states,

and he's away from the ship.

What's gonna happen to him ultimately
is in control of this admiral who

we've never met before, and he's a
little too, uh, quick to request the

schematics and, uh, and suggest that
he might have to be, uh, killed.

And so, yeah, you are set up to
distrust this admiral from the

beginning because he's a danger to Data.

Rob: Yes, and I mean, it's, it's,
it's quite a big achievement because

from my outside looking in the view
of the TNG world, you'd be able to

give me a clearer description of that.

You know, apart from the little odd,
uh, conflict and standing up for his

people, Picard and his Enterprise crew
are, compared to former captains and

future captains, they kind of toe the
company line, you know, quite well.

They're sort of like the model… not,
I wouldn't go so far as to say Boy

Scouts, uh, but they are very much.

So for them to be pushed so far
to extreme to do, said, titled you

know, the titular insurrection.

Um, and that's a, that's, that's a big
achievement from Admiral Dougherty to

be able to get those who believe and
support the Federation far more than

any other captains we'd seen before.

That's a, that's a huge
step to get to that point.

Kevin: Yeah.

Okay, I'll go next.

And as promised, I have a bad bad admiral.

Rob: Well done.

Welcome to the squad.

Kevin: Here we are in another movie.

I think this is, this is a movie
thing, uh, Rob, that, movies, when

you need to justify the budget of a
feature film, you have two choices.

One is universe ending war,
and the other is bad admiral.

Uh, and we got a bad admiral here in Star
Trek Into Darkness with Admiral Marcus.

Rob: By the beautiful,
incredible Peter Weller.

Kevin: Yes.

Uh, certainly what was bad
about him was not the actor.

If anything, it was just so obvious
that he was evil from the beginning.

You don't cast Peter Weller to
be a, a fine, upstanding citizen.

Rob: Unless he is in full metaled
armor uh, and, yeah, and, and

saving Detroit in the future.

Um, but yes, uh, I mean there's a lot I
could talk for hours about the things that

are wrong with Star Trek Into Darkness.

Um, but especially, yes,
he is so very much arch.

He puts the, you know, the arch into
arch villain, so there, there is, at

no point where you do not think that
he is, you go, Oh, it's that guy.

It's, it's, it's, it's the one who's

Kevin: Has anyone noticed how evil he is?

Rob: That's where you need a
Boimler to stand up and go.

How about the guy who's
acting really evil?

I think he's the evil one.

Kevin: Did you notice he has his
ship on his desk, the secret ship

that is going to try to end the
universe in the climax of this film?

Yeah.

His credentials include not just being
an evil admiral, but a member of Section

31 as well, if there weren't enough
evil in Star Trek Into Darkness, this

is a Section 31 admiral, if you please.

Rob: Something we didn't even mention
is the post credit scene in uh, The

Stars at Night, episode 10 season three.

Kevin: Badgey's back.

Rob: Mm-hmm, or is it a little bit of a,
a Section 31 adding more things to their

Kevin: Oh, maybe.

Maybe So.

Yes.

So yes, the plot of Into
Darkness is a heck of a plot.

In this alternate universe in which
the Federation and Starfleet are a

little more militaristic because,
um, of the events of Star Trek

2009, Section 31 is the organization
that discovers Khan's stranded

crew in space, not the Enterprise.

Rob: You're right.

Kevin: And evil admiral, Alexander
Marcus decides to attempt to recruit

Kahn as an asset in Starfleet.

And he has Khan design and build
photon torpedoes, and design and build

this amazing warship, the Vengeance,
which is revealed at the end of this.

And the plot of this film, ultimately,
is how Khan cannot be controlled.

Um, Admiral Marcus fails to keep
Khan on a leash, Khan gets away,

gets a little out of control,
and uh, and his cover is blown.

Rob: and kills Christopher Pike

Kevin: Yeah!

Rob: there's that moment Where Khan
introduces himself and he speaks

it with such gravity that's not for
the actors or that's not for the

characters in the scene cuz they
have no idea who the hell that is.

But that is specifically just for
the audience to go, Oh my God.

And it's just, it's a ridiculous
moment that takes you out of any

type of connection to that film.

Cause it's there going, You are not
speaking to the characters at all.

You're just speaking to directly to the
audience cuz it's meant to mean something.

to them

Kevin: Yes.

This is pure JJ Abrams storytelling, that
the point of the story is the surprise.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: Cuz I think, if memory
serves, in the lead up to this

film, people were like, So who
does Benedict Cumberbatch play?

And they were like, Oh
yeah, this guy Harrison.

Rob: Oh, it's John Harrison.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: It's Harrison.

He's.

Kevin: And people were like, Is it Khan?

It was like, it's definitely not Khan.

And so when it was revealed it was
Khan, it was like, okay, so you had

to lie to us in order to surprise us.

That feels like you failed.

Rob: Um, so yes, Peter Weller, chewing
up all the scenery and really filling

that cinematic role of, I'm an admiral.

I'm bad.

Get used to it.

Kevin: Yeah.

In a way I think he's a interesting
mirror to Dougherty, where Dougherty's

heart was in the right place.

He believed that he was doing the right
thing even after he started breaking

rules and his ethics in order to do
it, until suddenly he was surprised to

become the villain of his own story.

Peter Weller's admiral, though, feels
like he was like, I'm gonna do some evil.

How much evil can I get away with
and still have this awesome desk?

Cuz that's my, plan.

Rob: I have found the perfect
balance of evil and deception.

Kevin: So there you go, Admiral Marcus.

Not, not great.

Um, and not played with the
subtlety of Dougherty, either.

Rob: No, no, no, no.

Peter Weller is definitely, uh, hamming
it up to the extreme and it makes you

yearn for the days of him being, uh,
subtle and precise as he was in Robocop.

Kevin: Have you got one more?

Rob: I do, I do have one more.

This is my first encounter with a bad
admiral and it shocked me to my core.

Um, the first time I met him, he was
endearing and helpful and put in danger

and, I wanted him to be saved and.

Kevin: Well, hang on.

Let's be clear here.

Since last week's shocking twist that
you had interviewed one of our cast

members, when you say you met this
admiral, do you mean you met this

Rob: No, I have not.

if I had met this admiral,
I would've been, I would've.

Uh, yeah, I would've had many,
many, many conversations.

And if I only had a 20 minute, um,
limit, I would've gone No, no, no.

I haven't even touched
on To Kill a Mockingbird.

Um, so yes, uh, I fell in love with him
as generic friendly, you know, admiral

in distress, but then becomes one of the
key figures in the ultimate conspiracy.

Oh, how the mighty've
fallen Admiral Cartwright,

Kevin: Yeah,

Rob: Uh, Brock Peters from, Voyage
Home and, uh, the Undiscovered Country.

Incredible actor of course,
uh, did amazing work on Deep

Space Nine as Sisko's daddy.

Um, but here Cartwright is, um, right
off the bat, he is a lovely character

sorting out all this issue with the
President who was conveniently played

by Santa Claus, and with Sarek as
well, and all this type of stuff.

And you know, they're
heading for the bridge.

Oh my gosh, don't kill this admiral.

He's amazing.

Kevin: This is how you do an evil admiral.

You do a whole extra movie beforehand
to set him up as a nice admiral.

Rob: Exactly.

And then he comes in and oh, he
is, uh, nasty personified with,

uh, the issues with the and not
wanting to trust them at all.

Kevin: Klingons will become
the alien trash of the galaxy.

Rob: If we, uh, do an agreement
with them, there'd be suicide.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, by the way, another link to
this, uh, season finale of Lower

Decks: all of the Starfleet Command
scenes occur in the same conference

room in which Admiral Cartwright
is seen in Undiscovered Country.

The Only Nixon can go to
China conference room.

Rob: You vouched for me?

Only Nixon could go to China.

Um, oh, now I've gotta go back
and watch it again, just so I

could go, Oh, is that that moment?

That's where they all come in.

And that's, that's where,
that's where Uhura says that

she's been lecturing and, oh.

Kevin: They've got a much bigger
view screen behind them now, but

the desk and the lamps are the same.

Rob: Yes.

So Cartwright is, uh, introduced
as a wonderfully, uh, you

know, the, the admiral you're
rooting for and supporting for.

And then hates the Klingons so much.

He goes into a conspiracy agreement
with them to destroy their.

own Accord.

it's a very messy, messy, convoluted

Kevin: It is.

If there is one problem with Star Trek
VI and the edit where, uh, we get the

Scooby Doo moment of, of flashbacks to
all the conspirators to make it clear

to the audience who the baddies were is
a symptom of this is, it's not entirely

clear unless you're paying real close
attention exactly what the conspiracy was.

Rob: And also you have to have watched the
television version where they added in the

scenes where you've got Rene Auberjonois.

Kevin: Well, the good news is this 4K
Blu-Ray release has both versions on it,

Rob: really

Kevin: can choose which one to watch.

Rob: only one to watch.

It's the extended one cuz you've
gotta see Rene Auberjonois with an

arc eyebrow and a killer mustache

Kevin: and.

A flip chart,

Rob: And a flip chart, even though
they're in the future, they go,

Don't you wanna use a screen?

We've got PowerPoint here.

No, no, no, no.

I've gone old school.

I've still printed it out.

And then you find out at the end that,
you know, Rene Auberjonois is actually

the Klingon who's shot by Scotty.

But in the original theatrical
one, you just think it's a Klingon.

Kevin: That's right.

So, Cartwright is involved
in framing Kirk and Dr.

McCoy for, for the assassination of
Gorkon at the start of this film.

But I feel like the reveal of the,
the conspirators at the end of

the movie is so far from the, the
murder of Gorkon that you kind of

forget what even the mystery was.

Rob: Yes.

And hearing who the co-conspirators
are through, a mind meld is,

um, a little bit confusing.

Yes.

Yeah.

Cartwright Yeah.

that was a big shock for me when,
especially when he comes in, he's so

full of, you know, piss and vinegar and
he's all out of vinegar at the start, and

they go, What's happened to this great,
I was happy to see Cartwright back,

but now he's like, and like he's, and
he's smarmy up to Kirk when he's there

going, uh, better you than me fella.

And I'm there going, What
is, what has happened?

And then he,

Kevin: Such a generous, uh, role
I think in Star Trek VI for him.

Because like famously Valeris
the character was created because

they originally wanted to make
Saavik turn evil in this film.

But like Saavik, everyone loves Saavik.

Saavik can't be evil.

We need to create a new character.

And here, nice Admiral Cartwright
turns evil and that was played.

Like we allowed the character that
people liked to become a baddie

and for that to be shocking.

Rob: Yes.

It's a great moment of storytelling and
it's a great moment of sort of like, what

would people refer to as now ret conning.

But it's that case of going, now
this, we, we were honored to get.

You know, Brock Peter's in for,
for, for our whale story and um,

well let's bring him back for
this one, Nicholas Myer is back.

Let's, you know, and Nimoy and the writers
going, Well, let's make him a bad guy

and let's get him go full Iago style,

Kevin: Mm-hmm.

Rob: which is great.

Kevin: It has so much more weight
when, um, we see that someone can

turn evil under the right conditions.

It gives us this, this sense
that the choices we make matter.

We see ourselves as good people, but
we're gonna have to work to stay good.

People aren't born evil.

Rob: And it was a bit of a twist
as well because it, you know, Like

they brought Kurtwood Smith as the
president, so they didn't bring back St.

Nick from episode four.

And we didn't have Brock Peters
there in, uh, Star Trek V.

So to have him back is sort
of like, Oh, cool, okay.

They brought him back.

Hey, remember this character?

Yeah, he's kind of here and now.

Oh, cool.

He'll just be in the background again.

Well, welcome to have you back.

It's good to have, Oh my God.

Not only is he back, he's a
crucial part of this whole thing.

Kevin: So do you want more evil admirals
or is the inevitable, lampooning of the

pattern here in Star Trek: Lower Decks a
sign that the evil admiral thing is done?

Rob: Well, that's the thing.

Do you think they were lampooning it or,

Kevin: Carol Freeman says to
him, Uh, Buenamigo don't tell me

you're of those evil admirals.

And I think at that point, when you're
naming it in the text of the show,

in the dialogue, I think it's done.

Rob: Maybe, maybe I was just, Yeah.

In my re watches, I was just too caught
up in it going, This is, I, I go, Huh.

That's a good self reference.

All right.

Yes, it is real.

Uh, we've talked about this a
little bit, previous weeks as

well, Sort of like, okay, okay.

This is revisiting old ground.

This has been done, You know, you've
been going almost 60 years, guys.

What, what new stories are there to tell?

What new, uh, challenges
are there to face?

And we haven't seen it within lower
decks, but we've definitely seen it within

the, uh, within the star Trek cannon.

Um, it is very much an easy gimmick
to get out within the cinematic world.

Oh, it's someone from the inside.

It's a guy we've never met before, or
a person we've never met before, but

they've won an Academy Award in the past.

So, you know, give 'em a scene
with, uh, with Patrick Stewart.

Kevin: I think for me it's
all things in moderation.

As long as we have more good admirals
than evil admirals, and as long as

the story is worthy, uh, the, and the
character and the performance is, is

bringing something new to the screen,
then I'm on board with more evil admirals.

Rob: Yeah.

And if we could make a point of admirals
stop swearing at Patrick Stewart.

I'm all right with it, you know?

Um, if we could just cut down
on, you know, stop having

the potty mouth in front of.

John Luc Picard.

Okay.

Kevin: All right.

Well, uh, next week we are
diving into Star Trek: Prodigy.

Rob, you've got, uh, you've
got some catching up to do.

How's it going?

Rob: I am doing okay.

I'm up to, I think around
about season one, episode six.

So

Kevin: That's not far.

You got like four or five
more episodes and you're

Rob: I dunno if I can do spoilers or
anything like that, but I've just,

the end of the episode is, uh, Janeway
and the crew of the protostar have

just, um, discovered that the former
captain of the Protostar was Chakotay

Kevin: Mm, may or may not play into
the episodes we have to discuss here.

Rob: Gee, isn't Kate Mulgrew great?

Isn't she just amazing

Kevin: Yes she is.

Rob: hologram or otherwise?

Kevin: Will, will Janeway be an
evil admiral, is the question?

Rob: Oh, well, Is she she's not admiral
on in the hologram is she though.

She's Captain Janeway in hologram form.

Kevin: Yes.

We need to talk more next week.

Rob: Oh, that's right.

Oh, yeah.

Um, uh, we'll, we'll it's, it's
like those old, uh, talk shows

where they sort of like fade out