Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Star Trek.

Rob: It's it's another week.

It's another Star Trek.

Kevin: I feel maybe I've, I'm
overstepping my bounds here by

welcoming people to Star Trek.

This is of course Subspace Radio,
but it feels like this is where

you and I talk about Star Trek.

This is where Star Trek
happens in my week.

Rob: Look Star Trek is
everybody, and that's Starfleet.

Oh God, I can't believe
I just quoted Discovery.

Kevin: We are here to talk about Star
Trek Picard, season three, episode

five, Imposters, and especially to
focus on the return of one Ro Laren.

Rob: Look, as I've said many
times, in many weeks, my my time

in front of the screen watching
Next Generation is minimal.

And I am aware of the character
of Ro within the Star Trek lore.

I had no idea what happened to them.

So this was a good introduction, and
also conclusion for this character.

But I am hugely familiar with
the work of Michelle Forbes.

I adore her work as an actor.

She's one of those quintessential jobbing
actors who has never had any type of

lead type role or developed enough of
a following to be the figurehead of

their own show, but have just popped
up in shows and movies for decades.

Just working here and there and
creating solid work, and I'm always

a pleasure seeing her on screen.

Kevin: Yeah.

In the second half of this episode, I
will be educating Rob about Ro Laren.

And Rob will be educating me about
the further works of Michelle

Rob: I'm very excited to hear
more about Ro Laren's work and

I'm very excited to share my
favorites of Michelle Forbes's work.

Kevin: But first, something is
very wrong with Jack Crusher, Rob.

Rob: There is.

He uh, we open with a very
violent scene, very much akin

to earlier seasons of Picard or,

Kevin: Yeah, this whole thing of
someone imagines killing everyone

on the bridge with a phaser.

It's been done once or twice before,
and I think they need to come

up with another violent fantasy.

Rob: They used it a couple of
times just in this episode.

Again, let's show violence and
horrifying things of, oh, but guess what?

It's just an illusion.

Kevin: It Is until it isn't.

Rob: until, yeah, again but
he was killing nothing but bad

Changelings, so that's okay.

But he didn't know at the time!

Kevin: I'm reminded of there's, there
is this trope, I don't know what the

name for it is, but this like seemingly
civilized person who wrestles with, just

below the surface, with a, an ability to
do violence that threatens to come out

at every moment, and then when it does
come out, it saves the day and everyone

is congratulating them, but they are
horrified of what has been let out.

Rob: And it is a beautiful, horrifying
ending where she goes, how did you know?

And he goes, I didn't.

It's a really great
moment of going, oh, okay.

So it, it was just pure luck.

And

Kevin: They looked at me wrong.

Rob: And serves them right too.

So yeah, it was a um, a ploy
used a few too many times.

That's been used way too much recently.

But definitely in this episode it was
the shock value was used and going.

All right.

Okay, let's just let's move on.

Let's find something else.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Finally returned back to
what Worf and Raffi are up to.

Kevin: Yeah, that is the, that feels
like the, it's probably split half

and half again, but the fact that they
were completely absent previous episode

makes me like, lean into that story this

Rob: Yeah, me

Kevin: and follow their pursuit
of a way onto Daystrom Station.

It does like this plot of, of Raffi
and Worf, like trying to get to the

bottom of things, it is starting
to feel a little strung out.

It could have been the first underworld
contact they approached, the first

person in Worf's little black book of
names of people to go and shake down.

Could have been Sneed
who had all the answers.

But no, it wasn't Sneed,
it wasn't the next guy who

turned out to be a Changeling.

It's kind of the next
guy, this mean Vulcan.

Rob: Yeah.

Played, I, I've seen that actor around.

He's very, very good.

What's

Kevin: He is good.

And the idea of a, a Vulcan who
has determined that organized

crime is logical, because a
utopia cannot exist without it is

Rob: It was a really interesting, yeah,
it was fully, Bronx gangster Vulcan,

which was weird to see, but worked.

Kevin: Mmm, Krinn is the name of the

Rob: Krinn.

Played by

Kevin: Kirk Acevedo.

Rob: Acevedo.

Very good.

I've seen him around in stuff.

I think I've seen him in some
Law & Orders and stuff like that.

Kevin: I don't know if it was just
the pointed ears, but he looked to me

like a mean elf in Lord of the Rings.

Rob: Yeah.

Something like from the early
noughties Dungeon and Dragons.

Kevin: He had that I'm
so much better than you.

And even if I wasn't, I'm immortal.

So I got all the time in the world.

Like he had that air about him.

He was wearing an IDIC pendant, which
uh, you know, is the Infinite Diversity

in Infinite Combinations pendant, which
infamously Spock wears in a season three

episode of Star Trek The Original Series.

And Shatner and Nimoy refused to
do the scene because they saw it

as a cheap merchandising ploy.

And they're like, I'm not
gonna wear this stupid thing.

I'm certainly not gonna spend five minutes
talking about what it means and why the

fans should buy one for $19.95 right away.

And uh, Roddenberry, who was pretty
checked out from the series by that

point, was called down to set to talk
them into doing the scene and had to

rewrite it on the spot to make it less

Rob: Less product placement?

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: That's amazing.

That's a great little nugget of a story.

I hadn't heard that.

Yeah, I am getting that sense
of, I did get that sense in

this episode that, yeah, okay.

I'm, I think it's the, it's
poor Raffi as a character.

Raffi is just, not engaging for me at all.

It's always been a struggle to make
her feel relevant within this show.

They've tried so hard to show
how important she is and how much

she means to Picard and how much
I should be engaged in all this.

It was a relief that, I knew it was gonna
happen, that finally the subplots of

Worf and Picard finally merged, but I'm
there going, yeah, this is episode five.

You could have got to
this two episodes ago.

Kevin: Yeah.

And I feel the same about Raffi.

I wanted to get somewhere
for her character.

And what I wrote down in my notes was
some of the stuff of when she's sparring

with Worf and she's like twirling
the sticks and is starting to, she's

starting to inhabit the persona of the,
to jump franchises, the young Padawan.

The impatient cadet who's like,
let's just go and kick their butts.

And then the seasoned Jedi that is
Worf goes Patience young Padawan.

There is a bit of that dynamic starting
to happen, and I think Raffi could do

worse than become a Luke Skywalker in
the Star Trek universe, but she has

had so many character shifts to this
point that it's gonna take a while

before I believe anything from her.

If she sticks with this, I think
I could get there and enjoy her

in that, but I need to feel like
Worf needs her for something.

Rob: Yeah, it does feel like she's
just there because she's been

kept over, and it, there's been
so much character, backstory and

plot thrown in there, but nothing
really substantially worked through.

So I'm there going who, who are you?

I've seen you for two and a bit seasons,
and I still don't know who you are.

Kevin: It was telling to me that at one
point in this episode we were not watching

Raffi, it turns out we were watching
a holographic simulation of Raffi.

But no one could tell the difference.

Rob: Yeeeeeeeah.

Kevin: Uh, But I was
pretty proud of myself.

I did spot the mobile emitter
on her arm before before she was

shot, and I was like, are they
both wearing mobile emitters?

Ah, they're probably like hiding
away, and this is like the decoys.

Uh, So I was.

yes, I saw it.

Awesome.

Rob: And of course, yeah, the shocking
twist of, Oh, she's killed Worf!

No, she hasn't killed Worf.

They're not Worf right
now, no one believed that.

And of course, we get the beautiful
lines of I am bleeding quite profusely.

I have lost quite a lot of blood.

Camile tea will not be able to heal.

Kevin: This was a good day to die.

This was a worthy death.

And I was sitting there going,
you deserve better than this Worf.

This better not be real.

And Jess and I looked at each
other and went, nah, he's not dead.

Rob: No, they're gonna, they're, yeah.

We've had, the biggest disappointment
of deaths of, Oh really?

So Kirk just fell off
a cliff and that's his.

Right.

That's what his great death is.

Okay.

Kevin: I noted something
that will delight you.

When they were looking up that Vulcan
underworld boss's name in Worf's little

black book, right above him was listed.

Morn of Luria.

Rob: Probably still at the bar.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

Rob: So, but yeah, the biggest reveal
of this one, a massive shock, is

the return of Ro into the canon.

Now, I knew who she was because I knew
that she appeared later on in the Star

Trek series, so this was a big reveal and
this caused a lot of turmoil for Picard.

And there seems, are they
turning Picard into Kirk?

Because he's becoming
the dawg of the universe.

Like he's got his Romulan love,
he's got his Beverly love.

Kevin: I don't want you to misread it.

There was never they
never went there with Ro.

There is a scene before Ro appears
in this episode where Picard tries to

convince Jack Crusher to join Starfleet
in the hallway, and Jack goes Not

for me, I'm not the Starfleet type.

And Picard walks away, turns almost
said something, and then decides not

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: Not in those exact words, but
that exact pattern occurred with Ro,

where Ro had convinced herself she
was not Starfleet material, she had

been court martialled and thrown into
prison for disobeying orders and getting

eight people killed on a away mission.

And she was pulled out of prison by, as
it turned out, a bad admiral who wanted

her to go on a covert mission for him.

Rob: Those damn bad Admirals.

Kevin: And at the end of this
adventure, Picard says, you should

stick around, stay on the Enterprise.

And she goes, Oh, you gotta be kidding.

I'm not Starfleet material.

And Picard gave her a pep talk of
the best Starfleet officers I know

are the ones who feel like Starfleet
has as much to learn from them as

they have to learn from Starfleet.

And everything you feel
you're missing can be learned.

Give it a chance.

This could be the thing you've
been looking for in your life as

you've been bouncing around through
one misadventure to another.

And I love that that is there to discover
on second viewing of this episode.

Now that we are reminded of Ro, for those
of us who lived with that character in

the nineties, seeing Picard almost decide
to attempt that with Jack, but decide

not to, that is an echo of how Picard
feels, ultimately, he failed with Ro.

When she chose to leave Starfleet
and join the Maquis, that was,

that is what broke Picard's heart.

Not that there was a romantic flirtation
there, although there was a, there were

at times a little bit of chemistry and
in a dark corner of a bar where they were

pretending to negotiate her price as a
prostitute, as they exchanged Starfleet

intelligence, there was a little bit
of spiciness in the air between them.

But uh, no, it was never
anything more than that.

So this is not a lost love of Picard's.

This is a lost child of

Rob: Right.

Okay.

How long was Ro on the
show for just a season?

Or was

Kevin: She appeared in eight episodes,
most of them in season five, and

then she had one episode in season
six and one final episode, the one

immediately before the finale, season
seven, episode 24, Preemptive Strike.

Rob: I might be mistaken, but I think
the intention was for Ro to be the

Bajoran officer on Deep Space Nine.

Kevin: It might have made sense.

Certainly, she is the proto Kira Nerys.

The damaged member of the Bajoran
race from the Cardassian occupation,

there isn't quite as much freedom
fighter or rebel in Ro's background.

She is much more just someone who grew up
in the camps and whose father was tortured

to death in front of her by Cardassians.

And she is, she certainly bears the
scars of the occupation, but if anything,

she is someone who feels guilty about
not fighting for her people, whereas

Kira chose to take up arms for her

Rob: And fought most
of her life, actually.

Yeah.

So it was, it was a good bait and switch
and I think they played it quite well.

I dunno how you felt it, but I'm
there going, because they did the

whole thing of, she showed, she cut
herself and then that inter cut with

Beverly Crusher going, oh my gosh.

They can keep the form,
even the bloodline until,

Kevin: They keep doing this to me
this season where I know exactly

what is happening and then they
make me believe the opposite.

Just for a second.

Yeah, it's, it was great.

Like in hindsight, I should never
have believed that here in the final

season of Star Trek Picard, when the
promise to the fans is we're giving

closure to all our favorite characters'
stories, you bring back Ro, she's not

going to be an imposter who you shoot
down in the hallway and go, Whew!

Lucky that wasn't the real Ro!

I, I guess she's still
out there somewhere.

Of course it was.

You bring an actor back, you're going
to bring back the real character.

We should have known that about Riker
earlier in the season as well, that if, I

mean, maybe you could believe that Riker
would be revealed to be a changeling,

and then real Riker takes over.

Um, But uh, when Michelle Forbes shows
up, we should have done the math and

gone, okay, she has to be real because
nothing else would be satisfying.

And yet they managed to make us
believe it, or they, they got to me

Rob: They got to me, they got to me.

And it wasn't until she put the
gun down in the bar, remember

they went back to the bar.

Again.

Kevin: Again, with the bar!

Rob: And a justification of, oh,
we can, we can speak normally here.

Yeah.

Michelle Forbes is great.

So

Kevin: Yes.

She has never given a bad
performance, and all eight of

her episodes are worth watching.

They're all good

Rob: Amazing.

So because she's only in so few,
she's not just becomes a regular part.

She just pops in when she
needs to have be a focus.

Kevin: It's really interesting.

I would say that only her first
episode and her last episode are

truly like they required Ensign Ro
because they were about that character.

Yeah.

The first episode is her being pulled
out of prison and going on this

covert mission, but she's actually
a double agent working for this bad

Admiral, and Picard brings her around.

She decides to trust Picard and
then uh, Picard decides to trust

her and she stays on board the ship.

And then she spends three seasons
effectively being an ensign.

She is Ensign Ro Laren at that point.

Five seasons in, all our other
characters, all our other regulars had

achieved a level of competence that
it no longer felt possible for them

to fail or sometimes even have flaws.

So they started bringing in these
like second tier of characters:

Reginald Barclay, Ro Laren.

They are two of a kind, where they
often, appeared just sitting at a

station on the bridge and had one line
in an episode and like some of her eight

episodes, that is literally all she did.

Cause and Effect the time loop one
we've talked about several times,

she is at the conn for that episode.

She has a couple of lines over
the intercom, but she does

not play a core part in that.

It feels somewhat luxurious to me to have
an actor of Michelle Forbes's caliber,

effectively playing bit parts in a number
of episodes to maintain the continuity

Rob: she is there.

Kevin: presence on the ship.

And then there are a number where
she does play prominent parts, and

we'll talk about them in a minute.

Rob: Awesome, awesome stuff.

Yeah, she really knocked it outta the
park and there's great scenes with her

and Patrick Stewart right near the end.

Her ultimate demise is
incredibly well done.

And her her performance is
just stellar, just stellar.

And beautiful stuff about how intelligent
the character is and the passing on of

the Bajoran earpiece and what that means.

Kevin: That earpiece, for those who know,
the very first appearance of Ro she, she

like beams in on the transporter platform
and Riker is there to greet her and he is

upset that a disgraced Starfleet officer
has been assigned to the Enterprise.

It is possibly the meanest we've
ever seen riker be, greeting her.

And she steps off the transporter
platform and his first words to

her are, You will follow Starfleet
uniform code aboard this ship, Ensign.

And she takes off her
earring and hands it to him.

And that is the same earring that gets
handed off in this final appearance.

So beautiful bookend.

Rob: bookend, and of course that opens up.

But that's the thing, of course they use
the ultimate return and ultimate sacrifice

of uh, uh, a character to open up the
door so that now Worf is in communication

directly with our other heroes.

Kevin: I loved that Ro Laren was
Worf's handler, and Worf knew.

He, he asked what happened
to Ro Laren, and yeah.

Rob: For a second I thought it
was like a recorded message.

Went, no, they can see each other.

Why aren't they, why aren't
they waving at each other?

But yeah, that's where again, like
with the previous episode, we're going,

well we're out now, there's still
the mystery that needs to be solved.

We need to repair the ship.

But this chapter has come to an
end, this one going, now we've

got all the pieces together.

Let's move on to the next chapter
of bring them all together and

stop this changeling scourge.

Kevin: Yeah.

So tell me a little bit about
Michelle Forbes outside of Star

Trek, and then we'll come back
to to the rest of her story here.

Rob: I was, I first became a aware of
Nichelle Forbes from my favorite show

when I was a kid growing up in the
nineties, a show called Homicide: Life

on the Street, created by Barry Levinson
and David Simon and Paul Attanasio.

It was a revolutionary show in
the early nineties where it didn't

follow the cop procedural show of
car chases and gun fights and um, why

they wanted to create a show, which
is about day-to-day police work.

So it's about investigation
and about research and about

confessions and interviews.

And it's an ensemble
cast, incredible cast.

The late great Richard Belzer got his
start as John Munch, who he played for

23 years, who just recently passed away.

Andre Braugher, who's gone onto
great success in Brooklyn 99.

Michelle Leo, who's won an Oscar.

Um, Yaphet Kotto, Ned Beatty,
the list of actors go on and on.

And around about season four
they were rejigging things.

So some of the original
cast were moving on.

Ned Beatty was moving on.

The show was constantly in this struggle.

It was a revolutionary show.

It was an ensemble cast.

There was no two lead actors.

Each episode would shift from
one detective pairing to another.

Through the course of its
season, the longer it went, the

network kept on wanting it to
become more and more mainstream.

So what made it so beautifully
original was slowly eaten away.

It was a death by a thousand cuts.

So it limped along to seven seasons
and by the end of it, season seven

looked nothing like what Homicide was.

So in season four, they brought
in a couple of new characters.

They brought in Mike Kellerman, a young
detective who worked in arson and came

over to homicide and they introduced Dr.

Julianna Cox, and she was the one
who worked in the coroner's office,

this young rebellious chief medical
examiner who conducted all the coroner

reports and examined the bodies,
and gave all that information away.

So they go, Hey Doc, tell
us what, what killed them.

And her first appearance, she's riding
really fast, this car's driving really

fast, convertible, powering through.

She's pulled over by a
police officer on a bike.

She gets a report and she says, I'm here
to work in homicide, and drives off.

And, and, And gets her
ticket and drives off.

And her final episode when she leaves
in season five or six, I think.

She stays for about a season or two.

She drives out the exact same way,
and before she leaves Baltimore, she's

pulled over and given another ticket.

And she was great, incredible.

Brought a new energy and she matched wits
with some of the most established actors

in the show's history and was amazing.

They tried to push a whole
romantic relationship between her

and Mike Kellerman's character,
that never really worked out.

And I liked how they two ships
passing in the night type thing.

But she was a bright energy, and a strong
energy, and she was brought in to be

the young, hip attractive one, but the
character was so smart and intelligent

and clever and witty and strong.

That she didn't fit in with,
this, popular view of how women

should be in, nineties television.

Just incredible performance.

And so

Kevin: Yeah, wow.

I thought for sure you were gonna
tell me she played a cop and I

guess she played a cop of a sort.

But I imagined her, chasing people
down an alleyway and, jumping them and

cuffing them and interrogating them
in the room with the two-way mirror.

That's what I imagine Michelle
Forbes kicking ass at.

But she's also a great
deliverer of exposition.

Rob: Great exposition deliverer,
and great foil for a lot of the cops

who'd just come in and go, Hey Dr.

Cox, how's it all going?

And she'd match with them
and do really great stuff.

She was a welcome addition.

I was a bit hesitant at the start
cause I want my original cast.

That's all I want.

Any new characters are just diluting it.

And she grew on me cuz
she's such a great actor.

Such an incredible actor,
so dynamic, so charismatic.

I love what they, and I, I really got
upset when she left Homicide cuz she

was a wonderful addition to the show.

But she's just a jobbing actor.

She's done California.

She's done Escape from LA.

She's just been bit parts in, in
every, she was in Hunger Games, the

second last movie, or the last movie
as one of the um, soldiers there.

And one of her other crucial
appearances was in season two of

True Blood, which I kind of got into.

I dropped off True
Blood after season four.

I went, that's it, I'm done.

But in season two, she plays a
character called Maryann, who's turns

out to be the big bad, the season arc
villain, which has become a common

thing within genre based shows.

And she plays Maryann who turns out to be
this mythology creature who's a descendant

of the Bacchi who worshiped Dionysus.

And if anyone knows Greek mythology,
the Bacchi is about, women who worship

Dionysus and drink and merry and
dance naked in the woods, and who go

against the conventions of society at
the time, and they can be possessed

and immune with the power of Dionysus.

And so they become rabid and, they
unleash all your deepest desires

and all that hedonistic behavior.

And she's this incredibly warm,
receptive, friendly, opening,

supportive person who looks after
people who are homeless or lost, or.

Kevin: Wow, that would be a very different
color from what we get from Ro Laren.

Rob: The more, the more you see her,
the more her menace comes out and her

darkness and her manipulative nature.

And it's a great powerful performance
when True Blood was actually, doing

some really interesting stuff back
in its early seasons before it

Kevin: I haven't watched anything, any of
True Blood, but that sounds worth checking

out just because of how different it
would be from Ro Laren, who is so guarded.

And even when she lets her
guard down, she's guarded.

She tears up a bit and it's great,

Rob: Oh my gosh.

When she tears up in that episode and
like even Patrick Stewart is as well.

You go, this is really,
this is something special.

Kevin: Yeah.

And yet there is a sense of
never quite letting herself go.

Uh, Yeah.

Rob: She has that, that strength and
ability to have a hard exterior, but

there's so much more beneath that.

Kevin: So that's why I'm so intrigued
by the idea of her as a, a big villain.

Rob: Yeah.

And you don't realize just how she
plays it so undertoned and, and

plays the emotion as opposed to,
like we talked a couple of weeks ago

about arch scene chewing villains.

She plays it the other way
and it's the best way to.

Yeah I highly recommend
anything that she's done.

She's, she hasn't been the lead in
any type of movies or shows, but

she's always there and when she is
there, she does incredible stuff.

So tell us about her connection with Star
Trek and what are some of her highlights?

Kevin: The episode to go back and
watch if you want to understand what

is behind the powerful scenes in
Picard this week is season seven,

episode 24, Preemptive Strike.

It is the last episode before the finale
of the series, and you get the sense

they wanted to give a launching point
for the Maquis into the other series.

It was already something that was being
tossed back and forth a bit between

the Next Generation and Deep Space Nine
that we're airing at the same time.

But perhaps Voyager was already in
development and the idea that that

would begin with a Maquis crew getting
stranded with a Starfleet crew, I think

they needed to give one last, big push
for the Maquis being a going concern.

And so this episode is very much about
the politics of the Cardassian-Federation

border the fact that the Federation
and Cardassians were in an uneasy

peace treaty and the Maquis were caught
in the middle, especially Bajorans.

There were people whose planets had
been handed over to the other side as

part of a signed piece of paper, and
they were choosing not to go along

with it to fight for their homes.

Rob: this the first
appearance of the Bajorans?

Kevin: No, there was, the Maquis
were previously established I

think earlier in season seven of
Star Trek: The Next Generation.

But this is the last the last big push
for it, the last Maquis story in TNG.

And Ro, who has by this point become a
respected, promoted Starfleet officer.

She's now a lieutenant, and her
absence on the ship is explained by

her returning at the start of this
episode from Advanced Tactical Training

at Starfleet Academy, where Picard
had recommended her specifically.

She'd gone away, she was the star
of her class, and she came back.

And Admiral Nechayev, who we will remember
from several other, like she's the

one who showed up when the really big
missions were, when Picard needed to be

sent on the really high stakes missions.

She comes on board and she says,
we have a mission, and it's not

for you Picard, it's for someone on
your ship, and it's for Ro Laren.

By this point, Picard and Ro, like
they establish in this episode,

that their trust has grown deep
enough that he's at times referring

to her on a first name basis.

He will call her Laren.

And it sounds like it sounds important
and it ends up being important because

Ro is sent undercover to join the Maquis,

Rob: yes.

Kevin: and ultimately to lead
the Machi into a trap where the

Federation can capture them so that
they stop attacking the Cardassians.

So this is the Federation
working for the Cardassians

through Ro Laren, who is Bajoran.

And from the beginning, Picard is
like, If you don't feel like you

can do this, I would understand.

But she says, I wouldn't
wanna let you down.

Fulfilling your trust in me
is the main reason I feel like

I should take this mission.

And it's a very like, they lean real
heavily on this mission is the proof

of fulfilling Picard's trust in her.

And she goes off and, as happens
so many times when you're

undercover, you sympathize with
the people you're undercover with.

And she, she meets a cell leader
who reminds her of her father, who

tells stories of old Bajor that
she had separated herself from her

Bajoran identity, but he brought
her back and melted her heart.

And uh,

Rob: all in one episode.

Kevin: All in one episode,
she comes back to Picard and

says, I'm not sure I can do it.

Picard says, tell me now because I can
pull you out, but it's not gonna be good.

And she says, I'll go through with
it, but ultimately she doesn't.

In the final moment, she pulls a
phaser on Riker who's been sent

undercover with her to supervise, and
Riker is surprisingly understanding.

She says, can you tell
Picard one last thing for me?

And he says, Of course, anything.

She says, thank you for trusting me.

And she beams off and
goes and joins the Maquis.

And that is the last we see
of her before this episode.

Rob: There you go.

So that's a real big
cliff hanging out of the

Kevin: Yeah, and I can you can
certainly now see it as a cliffhanger,

like an unresolved thread.

But in the, at the time it felt like the
end of her story that she came, she joined

Starfleet, she thought she had found her
place, but ultimately what was going on

with the Maquis, the injustice for the
Bajoran people was too much for her to

take and it cost her Starfleet career.

That felt like an end
of the end of a story

Rob: But she did find that
connection with her culture, which

is in many ways more important.

No matter how much Picard says
Starfleet is the only family I need.

Kevin: The first episode of hers
back in season five, episode three

is entitled Ensign Ro, and that
is the one I talked about where

she's working for the Bad Admiral.

Rob: That, yeah.

That's what I was, what I meant
earlier was, is Ro the first

appearance of a Bajoran in Star Trek?

Kevin: That episode, Ensign Ro is the,
is when the Bajorans are established.

They were called the Bajora back
then, and it was like that turn

of phrase was quietly sunset.

I think it maybe even
appeared in some early DS9s.

They talked about the world of the Bajora.

They became the Bajorans eventually.

But yeah, this is the first one.

Ensign Ro isn't the first uh, Bajorans
we see there is a, terrorist attack by a

Bajoran ship, a Bajoran freedom fighter.

And then Ensign Ro is brought on
to, to be the kind of cultural

advisor on the mission to go and
try and stop these terrorists.

Rob: And is it true in my memory
that they it wasn't just the

creases in the, between the eyes.

There was a little bit of with
the Bajorans' design back at

the Bajora design, there was a
little bit of enhancement to the

eyebrows or the, some lines there.

Kevin: That's interesting that you ask.

I don't remember it that way.

But certainly that those
n nose ridges did evolve.

But I don't remember it
being much more extensive.

I'm just trying to see if I
can find an early photo of her.

Yeah, there.

I mean there were some, yeah the
ridges did go like halfway across

the eyebrows early on, so yeah.

They, they were a little bigger.

Rob: they just took it all the way
and just focused on the ridges on the

Kevin: Yeah.

I think that maybe they decided
it made them look angry and

they wanted, they wanted major
Kira not to always look angry.

Rob: Well, she, she, that was
certainly her default for the first

Kevin: Yeah.

But yeah, there are a couple
of other memorable episodes

for the character of Ensign Ro.

One of them has a lot of Michelle
Forbes and one of them doesn't.

The one that doesn't is Rascals.

And this is the episode in which
Picard, Ro, Guinan and Keiko are all

transformed into their child selves.

So, uh, Yeah, they get de-aged and so
it's completely different actors playing

these four characters, going on a caper.

So the young girl who plays Ro does a
great job with the character is very

believably Ro, so much so that when you
asked me like, what are great moments of

Michelle Forbes as Ro, I was like, oh, I
loved when she played herself as a kid.

Rob: She's that good.

She can de-age herself.

Kevin: Yeah.

But that is a good Ro
episode, not necessarily a

good Michelle Forbes episode.

The last I'll touch on is season
five, episode 24, The Next Phase.

And much as we were talking about Worf
the other week, where I really liked

the episode Parallels because it was an
episode where Worf was central, but it

was not about Worf's culture or heritage.

It was about him as a
character, in his own right.

And Ensign Ro's version of that episode
is The Next Phase in which she and Geordi,

returning from helping a damaged Romulan
ship, they come to the rescue of a Romulan

ship whose warp core is malfunctioning.

They go aboard as part of a
repair party, and when they

come back their, the transporter
fails, and they apparently die.

But then Ro and Geordi both wake up on
the ship, and find themselves walking

around, but no one can see them.

And when they try to touch people
and things, they pass through them

and they meet up and Ro is convinced
that they have died and that this

is basically Bajoran purgatory.

That in her religion before you go
to Paradise, you have a time haunting

the people that you lived with,
and you are supposed to use this to

make your peace with your departure.

You're supposed to tell truths to
people, admit how you feel, say

goodbye, and that ultimately then you
fade away when your business is done.

Geordi, as the scientist, the engineer
is like, I'm not having none of it.

I can see you.

You can see me.

The ship is still here.

We're still breathing.

I'm going to engineering to
figure out what's wrong with us.

And so it's a beautiful like
tension of they both respond to

the same situation in opposite

Rob: And that's very much
the Bajoran culture as well.

It's very much religion first
and everything uh, secondary.

Kevin: And it is a beautiful opportunity
for Ro to tell all these characters

what she really feels about them because
she is so guarded the rest of the time.

But she spends several long
speeches telling Riker, telling

Picard what, confessing to them
as they can't see or hear her.

She like stands in Picard's ready
room while he's drinking tea

and pours her heart out to him.

And it is, it is great stuff.

A really great showcase for Michelle
Forbes, both that, that tension of

disbelieving the situation and then
ultimately Geordi talking around

that, that they're not actually
dead, and there is a, there is

a science problem to be solved.

But before that, she uh, she pours her
heart out and then is embarrassed by what

she has done even though she's not dead.

So yeah, I would say if you want,
if you want one episode to really

understand what we saw this week in
Picard, it would be Preemptive Strike

her swan song, and everything you
need is right there in that episode.

But if you're gonna watch a
second Ro Laren episode, go

and watch The Next Phase.

It's it's a pretty typical episode
of the week for TNG, but it's a

lot more than that for Ensign Ro.

Rob: Excellent.

Well, Thank you for those recommendations
and and I hope I've inspired you to

go and watch some of her other work.

She's done

Kevin: Yeah.

I have to decide whether
to watch Homicide or uh,

Rob: True.

There's also she's still working.

Like she was being she did the Bourne
Identity spinoff TV series, Trenchstone.

She was a lead character in that.

She's got a reoccurring role in
New Amsterdam, the medical drama.

So yeah, she kept on powering
through and doing some incredible,

and she's still working to this day.

Like she hasn't stopped.

Kevin: I'm, and I'm gonna have to watch
some of this stuff if I ever wanna

see Michelle Forbes again, apparently.

Like I keep forgetting that she dies
at the end of this one, and then I

remember, and it, hurts all over again.

She went out in fitting form.

She made the difference this episode.

She, she closed the doors that needed to
be closed, and then she heroically flew

that ship into the engine of the Intrepid.

So well done to giving a character
due before killing them off.

Nevertheless, it is heartbreaking
having been given a taste of what

more Ro Laren could be, to now
know that we're not going to get

Rob: Well that's, that's
the thing, isn't it?

Cuz you, you'd feel cheated if it was
one of the Yeah, the originals come

even if it was will Wheaton coming
back and comes back sacrifices?

You'd feel cheated.

You'd go, no, that's wrong.

But with Ro Laren, you're there
going, you have a focus on her

for the A story of this part.

Has that resolution, has that arc,
and does the ultimate sacrifice.

But they're only in eight episodes.

So you go, you still feel upset and
heartbroken, but you're there going, okay,

they came back, they went out like a boss.

And that's not something to be really
feels, like short short changed on.

Kevin: But I am angry with
those Changelings, now.

I, up until this point I was like, maybe
they're just misunderstood, but now it's

Rob: They've taken Ro Laren out.

Yeah just send Jack over
and just sort them all out.

But it is good, because he's a
stubborn Chicago bastard, but

whenever Shaw finally, yeah, it's,
they played us like a book with Shaw.

They set him up as the bad guy.

You learn to love him even
though he is still spiky.

He doesn't change completely.

He's still a spiky prick.

Kevin: I'm gonna step outside
so that the three of you can get

your bullshit story straight.

Rob: And then at the end
goes, just go look, Shaw.

They're powering up,
they're gonna shoot us.

He goes oh, now we better get outta here.

But, but, but.

Kevin: But they were gonna arrest you!

Rob: You're gonna

Kevin: really wanted to see that.

Rob: Yeah.

Another really good episode, a great
little surprise return of a character.

And now we move forward into those
pieces finally coming together.

Now we've got, Riker and
Picard teaming up with Worf.

Let's get them in the same space, now.

Kevin: It feels like we're primed
for storming Daystrom Station next

Rob: I think that's the main, and
they're setting up like a heist.

They're going this is the, the AI system.

You've gotta break this code.

I'm expecting the Ocean's
11 music to kick in.

Do, do, do, do, Do.

Maybe they'll have their own
Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang episode.

I said, why are you
dressing in the tuxedos?

Why are you dressing up in a tuxedo?

Forget about it.

Let's walk in slow motion
along the promenade.

Kevin: I'm going to walk in slow
motion until next week's episode.

Rob: Looking forward to it.

Can't wait to see what
happens in episode six.

Kevin: Yeah.

We're more than halfway now, Rob,

Rob: We

Kevin: This is traditionally where
it all falls apart with Picard.