Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello, hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It is your two favorite Star
Trek nerds online, ready to talk

about the latest episode that has
dropped in the world of Star Trek.

That's right.

It's me, Rob.

And joining me as always
is Kevin, how are you?

Kevin: Yep.

Hello.

I'm well, thank you.

Rob: Excellent stuff.

And we are here to talk about the
most recent episode of Picard,

which is the most recent episode
of Star Trek, just to drop.

And we're getting close to the sticky end.

We're getting close to
the end of season three.

We're up to episode eight
of season three, Surrender.

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: And we are here to talk about that
episode, and that, of course, is gonna

spiral us off into inspiration, into
a deeper topic to explore that topic

throughout Star Trek larger cannon.

First off, what are our initial
thoughts about episode eight, Surrender?

Kevin: I feel like when we boil it down,
there is not a lot to this episode.

I think you could sum it up in
about three sentences, and a lot

of it is speeches that are just
characters showing their character,

actually saying a lot of substance.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: What did you think?

Rob: After the rewatch, it is very much
a case of that prolonged section of the

Titan being taken over and the agonizing
drawing out of that, to lead to the

glorified fan fiction stuff right at the
end that everyone has been crying out for

decades, and especially for the last seven
and a half, seven, three quarter episodes

to get to that good stuff where we can
just pile upon pile of of that sweet,

Kevin: mean where they all end up
around the one conference table

Rob: Well, yeah, there's all the
usual stuff of, you've got Geordi

and Data walking down a corridor.

You've got the entire crew,

Kevin: their friendship to each other.

The bromance is stronger than ever.

Rob: bromance is strong with this with
this pairing and everyone reconnecting

and in some of the longer shots, I've paid
particular attention the second time round

where Michael Dorn is just clocked out.

He's there going, the camera is
not on me, so I am not engaging.

I could see like his eye in
profile just wandering everywhere.

I'm going, he is not
focused in this particular

Kevin: Now I've gotta watch it a
third time cuz I did not catch that.

Rob: Everyone's being so
deep and meaningful and

resonating and all this stuff.

And like you could excuse it as, oh, it's
Worf just wanting to get to the stuff,

and he's not fully en engaged in these
human emotions that he is trying to.

But there's also a point is this
the actor Michael Dorn just,

just a second away from yawning?

I'm not sure.

Kevin: He had an early
morning in the makeup chair.

What can, what can we say?

Rob: And yes, and leading finally to the
next step, which we didn't really get.

Like the promise of cliffhanger
episode seven was, let's find

out who you really are, and we

Kevin: It's time for you to find out who
you really are after the next episode.

Rob: But it is definitely that
setup for our final two-parter,

which is a apparently, yeah, nine
and 10 are connected is with a

with a, to be continued at in the
middle, which like they're going on

sale in America to watch in IMAX.

Kevin: They've ratcheted up all of
the tension and like the only real

release we got is the defeat of Vadic,
dot, dot, dot question mark, here.

Rob: But it, yeah, it
looked pretty definitive.

Kevin: Seemed pretty pretty definitive.

So I can only assume there is
an even bigger bad to be brought

in for the last two episodes.

Vadic's boss, mysterious
floating head, goes, oh well,

I guess I do everything myself.

Rob: Exactly, or is even that
floating head just another,

conduit to the bigger bad?

Is it gonna be something we know?

It's gonna be very interesting if
they pull out something we didn't

expect, and that's gonna be a surprise.

But then everyone's expecting something to
come back that we all expect, so therefore

that expectation isn't really unexpected.

It's it's interesting how
they're gonna balance that.

And Terry Matalas has been balancing
that well, better than the previous two

showrunners from season one and two.

But he's laid everything out
on the table and it's gonna be

interesting to see where it goes.

Kevin: Yeah.

So big picture here, like the
plot movements were hostage

situation on the bridge.

Jack comes clean to his parents and
finally says out loud, I'm hearing voices.

I'm seeing red doors.

I can control people with my mind.

And they're like, oh, cool.

Go to the bridge then.

Rob: And Geordi's daughter got
very okay with it very quickly.

Kevin: Yeah, was.

She's like, okay, well he is telling
everyone, so it's not about me.

Rob: Sure he violated my mind,
but he's doing it to everybody.

So that's okay.

Kevin: It wasn't personal.

It wasn't personal.

Rob: Thank you?

Yeah,

Kevin: He goes to the bridge holding
this orb that the computer helpfully

identifies as an unidentified object.

He holds it up and a computer
voice offscreen with no one

having asked the question says,
unidentified object detected.

And I think it is just there so that
no one thinks to ask the question,

what is that object you're holding?

It's unidentified.

Don't bother asking.

Nobody knows.

So that at the end, when it's revealed
not to be a bomb, but a shield

generator, we're like, ah, cool.

Fair game.

But if the computer hadn't asked, I'm
sure Vadic would've said, what is that?

And then he would've
had to tell the truth.

That's the rules, right?

Rob: That, that is the rules.

That's how the higher ground
is by being very truthful.

Kevin: I feel like on rewatch,
the strength of the characters

and the broad sweeps is all there.

But a lot of the small bits of this
season are held together with people

not quite saying what they mean.

There's been a lot of Picard saying to
Jack, tell me what's going on with you.

And he'll open his mouth and a couple of
words will come out, but he won't quite

say anything of substance and Picard will
change the subject, seemingly satisfied.

And that's happened several times now
and every time it happens it buys us

another episode of people not knowing
what's going on with each other.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: But it's wearing a bit thin for
me, so I'm glad we are getting to the

pointy end where all is to be revealed.

Rob: Yeah, I think I
have mentioned it before.

It's very much a case of as there's
criticisms towards the most recent

Obi-wan Kenobi series with Ewan
McGregor coming back, and it was very

clear that was meant to be a movie.

And then they took that movie script
and turned it into a six episode series.

And you can clearly tell when
it works, is the movie sections.

And you can certainly see those stretch
marks and you see that here as well.

People going, you've got 10 episodes of
Star Trek Picard with the original cast,

and then you get to episode two or this
one, it's been covered over with duct

tape and a lot of hope and nostaglia.

Kevin: And it's mostly worth it, like
it buys us time for the character

moments, I wouldn't give up any of
them, but it's hard for the plot to make

room for that many character moments.

Rob: Exactly.

There's a lot of leaps of faith put
in there, and we've been finding that

a little bit in this whole season.

But we did get moments like
Riker and Troi reconnecting.

Kevin: Before we go to Riker and
Troi, blowing the escape hatch on the

bridge, nice callback to Star Trek
IV, although that escape hatch on the

bridge was on a Klingon Bird of Prey.

Rob: It was literally like a
submarine hatch, whereas this up

with the doors and shut very quickly.

It opened very slowly for dramatic effect,
and then said, okay, got the bad guy out.

Shhp.

Kevin: Yeah.

But did you catch it when Seven
decided to stay on the bridge?

Vadic says it is.

She says something like it is
appropriate that you of all people

would be here to witness this.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: And so I'm thinking Yeah, it's
very, it's sounding very Borgy, now.

Like, further to my comments last week.

Rob: Yes.

It started out the whole episode with
the, the possession of the Titan.

It was very brutal.

It was very vicious.

It was very violent and very
You hear the, the crying of

Kevin: Yeah.

You hear screaming and you
hear her like conducting the

orchestra of misery on the bridge.

Rob: And then there was a crew
member hanging up by like a

dagger stuck into her throat.

I'm there going, a lot of
crew are dying right here.

Kevin: Yeah.

That's what we've chosen as our topic this
week is like one very prominent Vulcan

dies on the bridge and among the several
deaths in this episode, it stood out as a

moment of someone we barely got to know,

Rob: That's a big thing
that we get in Star Trek.

We have a prominent supporting character
and how much do we show, how much

do we not show, and how much do we
invest in the tragedy of their loss?

And whether that's reflected upon.

So this character has appeared in the
season pretty much since episode one.

Kevin: Relatively few lines, but each one
you're like, that's an interesting person.

That was an interesting line reading.

I want to know more about that character.

Rob: Exactly.

But with their demise, I dunno
if the emotional weight, there

was meant to be some emotional
weight, but there wasn't as much.

And maybe

Kevin: It was really weird.

They lined up the bridge crew
and then Vadic got two of them

to introduce themselves to her.

And I was like, this is really
hanging a lantern on the fact

that we as the audience don't
know any of these people, either.

Like, just like on Discovery, we've
got an entire bridge crew and we

don't even know their names, really.

Rob: Yep.

And so when one of the bridge crew dies
in Discovery, we have to do a flashback

sequence, but more about that later.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

It's probably, for me, it's less
of a problem here in Picard where

the point of the show is the other
characters, not the crew of the Titan.

Nevertheless, if you're gonna line these
people up on the bridge and make us

worry for their safety, you probably owe
us some investment in their characters.

And it was funny to me, in a grim sort
of way, that we got introductions to the

two people who survived and then Vadic
goes, I'll shoot the one you don't know.

Rob: It was definitely
the old bait and switch.

But that's the thing.

There's no gravity there because
we have Seven of Nine say what

happens and actually say the
character, the crew man's name.

And I think that was more for us to go,
remember this is the character's name.

We've never heard it.

But then there was no
acknowledgement afterwards.

And so later on we're all happy
and joyous because we've got

the old crew back together.

They're going, quite a
lot of crew have died.

Is there we don't have
time to reference this.

We've gotta move on to, Geordi and
Data sharing a moment where they look

into each other's eyes dreamingly.

Kevin: They did some work off screen,
like there's some, been some stuff

in the interviews and the kind
of social media material of this

Lieutenant T'Veen, the bald Vulcan.

And the story that she had worked
out for her character was that her

grandmother was Deltan, just like Ilia
from Star Trek The Motion Picture.

Why she had the bald head and she had
a bit of that kind of sensual, you must

take a vow of celibacy to, to serve on the
ship sort of thing going on around her.

But it was all just background for
the actor's process, ultimately.

What actually made it on screen was a
Vulcan who is very interested about the

nebula readings in that one episode,
and then took a phaser hit to the head.

Rob: And that's the thing.

It loses that visceral, emotional
connection as soon as someone's

phasered and they disappear.

You don't have that even like that
crewman who I've never seen before,

but who died with a dagger stuck in
them, that was a, for me, that was

a visceral reaction of Oh my God, as
opposed to they're just phasered away

and I didn't even know who they are.

So the only one, one of the only phaser,
like complete phaser destructions

that really work for me is in Star
Trek II with the with the captain

Kevin: captain who's got the earworm and

Rob: Yes.

And kill and he shoots himself.

Beautiful performance and a
beautiful sort of like, moment of

wow what he sacrificed to, to go.

So yeah, for me that
opening part was quite grim.

And I had to keep on remembering that
this doesn't seem like Star Trek, but

it was very much previous Star Trek.

And it has been in like Star Trek II
there's a lot of that grim violence

and stuff with the scientists
discovered by McCoy and Kirk.

So it is a part of Star Trek.

It just still felt quite
a little bit jarring.

Kevin: All right.

Moving on from Jack and the hostage
situation on the bridge, we had Riker

and Troi reunited having some deep
and meaningfuls in their holding cell.

I really enjoyed this stuff.

This and the Data and Lore stuff that
we'll get to in a bit, they both worked

a lot better for me than the main plot,
which really for me, hung on Vadic's

performance, which continued to be strong.

Really loved her in the captain's
chair going, Ooh, this is comfy.

I'm gonna take this with me when I go.

Rob: Lot of smoking

Kevin: Oh.

Lots of smoking.

But uh, yeah, this B and C plot of
the reuniting legacy characters,

they were generally strong for me.

What did you think of Troi
and Riker uh, finally sharing

their feelings with each other,

Rob: I, I adored the scene and the
acting was top notch and it was good.

That stuff you're talking about earlier
where you felt a little bit Frakes

didn't really give himself good direction
while he was directing episodes.

So this was a good episode that
he was out of the director's

chair so that he could just focus
on, there was a lot of beautiful

naturalism between the two of them.

This beautiful natural back and
forth, almost overlaying of dialogue.

And they seeped that in with
Star Treky techno babble.

So they do these beautiful
moments of, oh, I wish I'd taught

you more words to describe me.

And then they talk
about, oh, this and that.

And then they go on to talking about, the
bridge codes and all this type of stuff.

This beautiful seeping in of
natural conversational banter,

connection done within this universe.

It was some of the best one-on-one
acting I've seen in Star Trek.

Just natural conversation.

Kevin: I can't believe how much I have,
until now, craved hearing Troi talk

about her profession as a professional.

As a therapist who helps people
with their mental health, this is

something I live with or something I
can observe or an opinion that I have.

We got seven seasons and, what was
it, four movies with that character,

and I don't feel like we ever got to
see her truly being a professional.

Like there were times where she would
come into the captain's ready room

and say, look, no one else is gonna
say this to you, but I need to express

my professional concern for you.

But her like, expressing a professional
opinion and showing competence, citing

best practice or lessons she should know.

The, you can't skip to the end of healing
line really hit me as not only is that

a great character moment, but it, so for
the first time makes me buy her as someone

who is trained in a profession and is
better at the things she does than anyone

else that we've met in that universe.

Rob: Exactly, yeah.

She's got those natural gifts
from her species and actually

turning it into a profession.

So it's that case of she has
to follow a code and practice

and all that type of stuff.

And yeah, it was an incredible line for
that to be discussed by two actors who've

known each other for decades and are
just, as comfortable with each other as

actors, as they are as characters, to
really bring out the best of each other.

Kevin: The idea that they were both
city people who were staying in the

country because they thought the
other one liked it was glorious.

Rob: Do you see the little
bit of the jab at the original

creators of Picard as well?

Like they're saying like the squeaky
doors and the front porch that seem

possessed and they're going because
I bought it a little bit when I got

there going, oh, Riker and Troi are
back, and they've got their daughter

here and the tragedy of their son.

Oh.

And they're so homely and stuff, and it
cuts to them going that's not who we are.

I'm going, oh.

Kevin: It's funny cuz I
thought that was who they were.

I saw the logic of Troi, someone who, you
know, her entire professional life has

had to live inside other people's heads
and hear their thoughts, the getaway

from it all and be out on my own where
I can have some peace and quiet with my

thoughts, I could see the logic of that.

And Riker has always been the alpine
ideal of masculinity who grew up

in the Yukon and belongs astride a
horse on a mountain like that, that

always made sense to me, that picture.

Rob: He does look a lot like how Pike
looked at the start of Strange New

Kevin: Two of a kind.

And so I, I definitely bought the
idea that they would live in a log

cabin by a creek with a pizza oven.

That made sense to me.

Now that they're saying, actually,
I miss the hustle and bustle.

I loved hearing people around me
and being among thoughts and Riker.

Likewise I, I mean, I can see
maybe that was my father and I

want something else for myself.

I can buy it, but it definitely feels
like a rewrite of these characters.

Rob: Yeah, a a little bit of
a not too subtle jab at the

showrunners of season one, possibly.

Kevin: Well, now we get to see
the sitcom with Riker and Troi

living in a big city apartment.

I'm there for that.

Rob: It's City Change.

Exactly.

Instead of Sea Change.

Kevin: We have not seen the Star
Trek sitcom, so bring it on.

The two camera studio audience sitcom
in Riker and Troi's city apartment.

I think they could do something with that.

Rob: I think pretty much most
of the Star Trek crew have guest

appeared on Big Bang Theory.

So they would

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

Rob: and they've done enough cons,
they know how to work a crowd.

I think in the, is it The Captains'…
wonderful documentary they made years ago

where they had Frakes, Stewart Shatner
and Nimoy, and was hosted by Whoopi

Goldberg, and they talk about conventions
and Frakes said, for years we tried to

get Patrick to do it, and he never would.

And and they talk about the fact
that you have to, you have to be

able to tell stories, do stand up,
crowd interaction, all that balance.

You need all those skills as an
actor from stage work and screen

work and all that type of stuff.

Kevin: They're ready.

They've been training their entire uh,

Rob: This is what they were born for.

There was a one interesting moment
when they played a bit of a, it's

like in Indiana Jones and the
Last Crusade, when he goes What?

You gave the codes to, to them.

And he goes knowing Jean-Luc Picard, he
already thought of a plan already back

and they're in the grimmer situation.

I'm going someone's about to die here.

I dunno if that comedy
really balanced out.

Yes.

Kevin: I thought it was This is a second
watch observation for sure, but the

implication there is they are going to
threaten Troi in order to make Riker talk.

But then they let them sit there
in a cell for the entire episode

Rob: But they did.

It did imply there was a point where
they said, why did you give the codes?

And he said, I just couldn't
see you being tortured anymore.

Kevin: Okay, so it all
happened off screen, I guess.

Rob: Yes.

So she's being tortured in a way
that hasn't left any bruises or

Kevin: Yeah.

She looks remarkably un unharmed
where she's dabbing the blood

off of Riker's beard in, in

Rob: Now there's a big, there's
a big line in this episode that's

caused a lot of, consternation online
with the Good at bed, bad at pizza.

And a lot of fans have been
taking it literally, which they

shouldn't have, going, Oh my God,
she slept with the Changeling

and No, and everyone's forgotten.

She immediately changes it.

She clarifies it in a second when she
goes, I knew as soon as they came in.

Kevin: That's right.

Yeah.

No, she was joking with him.

Rob: Yes.

Yes.

But I think a lot of people wanna put
that on a shirt and fair enough too.

Kevin: Yeah.

I think that that would
be a good seller for sure.

Rob: Then of course, Worf comes
in and the awkwardness just goes

Kevin: Oh, such awkwardness and so
well sold by Marina Sirtis, there.

Worf just running his mouth
and Riker going, Inappropriate.

And just Troi's reactions in
that scene are where the gold is.

She is making them both
look incredibly good.

Rob: Yes.

And then right at the end when Worf
turns around, she gives a look to Riker.

Whoa, what was that?

She did it brilliantly.

Incredible.

Kevin: So good.

Like on the one hand to address the
awkwardness of that love triangle that's

been in the, established in canon, but
never really dealt with, they dealt with

the awkwardness without dispelling it.

I feel like they didn't
explain it to death either.

It's still there to be enjoyed.

Rob: I'm definitely finding older
Troi has a lot more to play with.

They've given her more to play
with than in many ways they

did in the original series.

This is coming from someone, I've only
seen the odd episode here or there, but

you can definitely see her character
is allowed to have more than just calm,

worried, look on her face and going,

Kevin: the character has really evolved to
play to Marina Sirtis's strengths as well.

You go back and see Encounter at Farpoint,
and she is like strapped down and

hairsprayed up and she's putting on a,
an alien accent and you can barely see

the person behind all of that affect.

And here now all these years later, almost
every part of that characterization has

been dropped and Sirtis is being allowed
to play her comic strengths, her true

accent the, the softness that you need
if you're really going to help someone

work through a mental health challenge.

Like all of that now it's become
a living, breathing character.

And you could try to stand on ceremony
and say it's not true to the original

character that was established,
but what we've got now is so much

richer, realer, more believable
that I think it's a win all around.

Rob: Definitely.

They've definitely haven't had Troi in
it as much, which we've talked about,

but they've definitely elevated her
this episode, and especially with the

end, which we'll talk about a bit later.

They've definitely gone, okay, this
is who we've actually been waiting

for to come back in the show.

They've the strength and the
skills and the knowledge and the

ability to really deal with this.

Kevin: The last big thread of
this episode is Data dealing with

his brother once and for all.

And the suspense of what will happen
when we let down the wall in his mind.

Although, I don't think it was
ever really that suspenseful.

The moment they said, look, it's
Data and Lore in one body and

there's a wall between them.

If we ever were to drop it, they
would have to fight it out, and

we don't know what would happen.

And I'm like that's happening.

Obviously that's happening.

It's just a matter of time.

Rob: And no matter how many times
they say Lore's gonna defeat him,

Lore's gonna take over him, Lore's
gonna just, it's all gonna be Lore.

Yes, they were over milking it a lot
saying if they drop this down, Lore's

gonna take over completely and Data's
gonna go and there's no way for Data

to come back, and he's gone forever.

I'm going well,

Kevin: All the blue lights are turning

Rob: All the blue lights

Kevin: It, he's about to die, everyone.

I hope you're worried.

And I was never really worried.

Rob: See, yeah, for me, that part felt
very much like traditional science

fictiony stuff, and that felt, that
whole sequence was shot very much for me.

It felt like it was from one of the
episodes from the nineties, even to

the point of the double having a wig
that was clearly far too white than

the actual hair of Brent Spiner.

See if they didn't spend so
much money on that bloody bar.

Kevin: It was the cat.

The cat had a very expensive rider, Rob.

Rob: They've got a good agent.

They've got a good agent.

They know how to fight for it.

Kevin: What did you think of Data's
last bit of himself that he gave over?

The very last thing that he
would give up would be Spot.

Rob: Of course.

Yeah, for me, the things that really stood
out for the things I remember, so the

dear stalker, the pipe, obviously having
Denise Crosby appear in hologram form.

Tasha

Kevin: It was, It was almost
played for comedy like that

hologram was never held reverently.

It was always held at a comedy
angle so that she was not standing

straight, she was standing at a pitch.

And yeah, they were having
fun with it, I felt like.

Rob: But yes, I think Spot was
in one of the movies and I think

Kevin: Yeah, he was in

Rob: Yeah.

So that's where the tears
came out and stuff like that.

So I didn't have as much investment
with Spot as you next gen fans would've,

but it was a beautiful moment with,
right at the end the, the embracing

of the brother as they fade to become
a part of each other, which is yeah a

very poetic way that, you are claiming
all my trophies, so therefore you are

keeping all my memories, so therefore
you have completely taken all of me.

So now you are me.

Kevin: Yes.

I think, yeah, for anyone
who was paying attention, you

could see what was happening.

But it made you feel smart.

I think it's one of those things that
it's just mysterious or it's got the

air of mystery enough that you feel good
about yourself and as an audience member

that you can pick what's happening.

Rob: And there was the almost corny,
almost cheesy line of, now we are me,

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: I'm there going, oh my God.

I've gotta get my head around.

Yep.

Okay.

That actually tracks.

Okay.

I needed a PowerPoint
presentation to figure it out.

And a whiteboard marker.

Kevin: And coming out of it I really
like the characterization that

Brent Spiner has found with it.

Like he's got just enough Data that
you feel like our old friend is back,

but just enough Lore slash wacky
Spiner comedy that it's something

fresh but not too indulgent as well.

I think there's, it's still respectful
of the innocence of Data while having

just enough fun with it, walking right
up to the line and then stepping back.

Rob: Yeah.

And a lesser actor would've tipped over
the edge and fallen into the abyss.

But when you've got Brent Spiner,
that man can literally do no wrong.

There was a lot of
swearing in this episode.

Kevin: I have to confess, the moments
in which it occurred were heightened

enough that I, my attention was on
other things, so it didn't stand out.

Rob: Yep.

Fair

Kevin: It, it wasn't the conspicuous
f-bomb from Picard in a silent room

where all eyes were on that character.

It was in the heat of a moment
where it was there and gone.

And yes the final line from
Vadic I did kind of go, rolled

my eyes little bit at that one.

I don't think it was needed.

But apart from that, it
didn't stand out for me.

Rob: The Data pissed off android line
worked for me, but yeah, Fucking solids

was, I could see what they were going
for, but it did stand out cause it

was the final line of the character.

Kevin: I could buy that, like Data
inherits a bit of a potty mouth from

Lore like that is the negative influence
of his lost brother and I I could if

Data was now the only character in Star
Trek who swore and he owed it all to

Lore, I would be like, yeah, that's

Rob: But yeah it's, it all leads
itself up to our, cliffhanger that

we didn't actually get answered all
episode of who's Jack Crusher, because

we had to wait for Troi to step in
and she's the one, the only one who

could take Jack through that door.

Kevin: It's time to open the red door.

Rob: And find out it's the Borg!

Kevin: So let's revisit some
other minor characters past, whose

untimely demise stuck with us.

Rob: There's a bit of a trend been going
online at the moment, especially on

Twitter, about characters who whose deaths
were undeserved or they deserved more.

And so there's and I think that's
been inspired by, the most recent,

from this episode with the characters
who have gone too soon or before full

So that's been a, everyone online
seems to be reflecting on that.

So I thought it'd be a good idea
for us to have a look at those side

characters, supporting characters, cameo
appearances, or who their deaths meant

something or should have meant something.

Or the writers have tried to make us
feel something and was it earned or not?

Kevin: We've done one episode in
the past, so if people want to hear

more thoughts on this stuff, you
can go visit our very first official

episode one, The Red Shirt Problem.

But back then we were dealing with
the untimely loss of Chief Engineer

Hemmer, and it felt more like, major
characters who died before their

time or died in an unfortunate way.

What intrigued me about today's loss and
y as usual, take this in whatever way, in

whatever direction you wanna take it, Rob.

But intrigued me about it this time
around was the idea of a character

that the story was never about them.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: They were also not a single
episode guest star where they were

introduced at the start of the episode.

And we got to know just enough about
them so that when they died at the end

of the episode we felt bad about it.

It was someone who we were carrying
along in the background and suddenly

they were gone and we didn't realize
we missed them until they were gone.

And I feel like that's,
what we've got here,

Rob: That's a very poetic
way of describing it.

Kevin: I might go first, if you want.

Rob: Please do!

Kevin: I brought two from Voyager
here, and the first one I'm gonna talk

about is Hogan, who is a character
who appeared in seven episodes and

yet, his rank is unclear because
he is that somewhat underserved

as a character or underdeveloped.

He is one of the ex Maquis on board
the ship, and he is a pretty, with

apologies to the actor, he's a pretty
vanilla, unremarkable white dude.

He works in engineering.

He was given the rank of
Provisional Ensign when he was

brought over from the Maquis crew.

And there are indications like in
at least one occasion, he's wearing

the rank pips of a lieutenant,
but it was never commented on.

So it's never quite clear.

Did he get promoted?

Did he become even a full Ensign?

Rob: Because the Maquis officers have
their own sort of pin, don't they?

Kevin: They did too.

Yeah.

They had the Maquis pins as well.

Anyway, he worked in engineering and
he was often, he was that crewman

who had the well-intentioned bad idea
where it was like, I know that Captain

Janeway said, we need to follow the
rules, but if we're really gonna get

this ship home to the Alpha Quadrant,
we probably need to sell our all our

computer records to this alien species
that's gonna give us a thing in return.

He was the one who is arguing
for breaking the rules.

And that's in my view
why he never got ahead.

On several occasions, he was the
engineer assigned to work for Neelix.

Like he was the one who had
to fix Neelix's kitchen.

That the duty that he was pulling.

He was in six episodes in season two.

And then met his untimely
demise in Basics Part II, the

season premiere of season three.

And we talked about that last week.

This is the episode in which the
crew of Voyager was stranded on

the primitive planet and there
were giant serpents in caves.

They land on the planet and
they immediately start having

to like scrounge for provisions.

And Neelix says to Hogan, Hey,
see that pile of humanoid looking

bones in front of that cave?

Go and pick those up for me.

And I think even Chakotay goes this
looks like a, a stay away sign to me.

Don't you think?

And Neelix goes, yeah, you're probably
right, but waste not, want, not.

Hogan, pick up those bones.

And Hogan, bless him.

By the end he's like, look,
I've been wrong so many times.

I'm just gonna do what I'm told.

And you can see hapless Hogan go,
ah, just do what you're told, pick up

the bones, and he like picks up the
first bone and kind of goes, I can't

believe this is what it's come to.

I'm the crew member assigned to
picking up these gnarly bones.

And then sure enough he looks into the
cavern and the camera comes flying at him

and he screams and is never seen again.

And there is a, there's a moment or two
where Neelix, like oh, I should never

have asked him to pick up those bones.

But Janeway goes, don't
beat yourself up, Neelix.

Could have happened to anyone.

That man, Hogan, will be the last
person who dies on this planet if

I have anything to say about it.

And he's, it's not dwelled
on past that point.

Rob: Yep.

And that's I think we've talked
about before with Voyager.

They set themselves up into a position
where they could completely change

the format and they went with that.

But it was the death of a thousand cuts
where they started with this bold concept

and idea, which would've taken them in
this really strong arc story that was

really powerful in Deep Space Nine.

But they doubted themselves, or for
whatever reason, they were only stuck

in way of going, we only know how to
do that procedural week by week thing.

And so they fell into
that trap repeatedly.

Hogan was one, and one of
mine is from Voyager as well.

Where you have that.

Kevin: Wonder if we've
picked the same one.

But there was, like, this is something
I don't think Voyager necessarily gets

as much credit for as it deserves,
is it did have this like, recurring

cast of background characters.

There was a sense that it wasn't,
there wasn't an infinite supply of new

background cast of the week on that ship.

It was very much a lot of the same
faces again and again, which really

sold this idea of a small crew, on a
small ship, stuck on their own with no

crew transfers or anything like that.

And so a character like Hogan, who like
I don't think he got the arc he deserved.

The fact that he again and again
played that role of the ex Maquis

with the bad idea who turned
out to be wrong in the end.

It's a shame they never quite took
that, turned it, gave the character

an arc and then let him die in a
tragic or thought provoking way.

It was more like, okay, he's had
the bad idea five times now we're

not gonna be able to do that again,
so we might as well kill him.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: get something of a follow up
because later in season three, episode

23, there's an episode called Distant
Origin where these like dinosaur aliens

who live in a culture that they believe
they are the only sentient life in the

entire universe, but their scientists
start to find evidence to the contrary.

And one of the pieces of evidence they
find is Hogan's remains in that cavern.

The cold open of Distant Origin is
the dinosaur alien kind of creeping

down that hallway and finding
Hogan's bones and his torn uniform.

And so we do, in his eighth and
final appearance, we see Hogan's

skeleton laid out on a table
during the episode, Distant Origin.

But I can't speak for every Star Trek
fan, but as someone who watched Voyager

week in, week out, religiously, 22
episodes after his death, I could

not have told you who Hogan was or
whose bones those were on the table.

Rob: That's what he would've wanted?

Yeah.

Kevin: Who's your first one?

Rob: Well, I'll go with Voyager as
well because when I first went to watch

Voyager for the first time, this was
the one I was really waiting out for.

I'm there going, I'm gonna pay
particular attention to see how they

deal with it and what is gonna be done
when they lose their first crew mate.

Kevin: Yeah.

A, A ship on its own.

How many of us are gonna make it
home was a particularly poignant

question for those seven years.

So every person left behind I
think hit harder than it has

in any other Star Trek series.

Rob: And so for me, I think I have
mentioned this before, I was paying

particular attention to see who it
was, how it was gonna be handled,

and how would the crew respond to it.

And I believe, I think this is the
first crewman who was killed off,

who did have one previous appearance
in a previous episode, but I think

it is Lieutenant Peter Durst.

So he first appears in Cathexis
and then he appears again in Faces,

which is season one, . Episode 14.

Kevin: They went 14 whole episodes
without losing a crew member.

Rob: Yeah, from what I can recall.

For me, it stood out as the
first one that I was waiting for,

Kevin: right, I am looking at
the official Memory Alpha list of

casualties from the USS Voyager and
Peter Durst is the first one after

their arrival in the Delta Quadrant.

They do lose some people on the journey,
like that, that rough trip from the

Badlands to the Delta Quadrant does lose
some people, but once they're there yeah.

Peter Durst is the first one to go.

Rob: Yes.

And so in Faces, this is the one that
primarily focuses on the Vidiians the

villain in this one, particularly one
particular doctor Sulan who becomes

enamored and obsessed with Torres.

And he is able, because of his
skills as a geneticist and stuff

like that, split her into two.

So her completely human form
and a completely Klingon form.

And Durst and Torres are the ones
who get separated from the ship.

And so they're both there together.

And Durst is killed.

And Sulan takes his face and
to make him more appealing to

Torres puts Durst's face on his.

Now, of course, the same
actor played Durst and Sulan.

But at the end of the episode, I'm
there going this is the first loss

they've had since they've got here.

Is there gonna be any
focus, any attention?

And there is none.

None at It's more about how Torres is
messed up and disturbed by this, and how

her two parts have to be brought together
and there is nothing, no reference to him,

no funeral for him, no acknowledgement
of him in any way, shape or form.

He is killed.

He is mutilated.

His face is used by a
villain and there is nothing.

They don't call back to him in
any other episodes and he is gone.

He is the quintessential
representation of a red shirt.

The only thing special is that he
appeared in one episode beforehand.

And this for me is where
everything about Voyager that I

was hoping it would be collapsed.

That I just went, so this is just
gonna be every other Star Trek

series where they say it's different,
but it's just like Next Gen.

It's just like,

Kevin: it was the fact that he
appeared in a previous episode,

like adding insult to injury.

Like it would've almost been better
if they hired an actor just to

be the red shirt that episode.

Rob: Yeah, very much so.

He appeared in one episode before,
so you kind of had seen him before.

Kevin: It's almost like they said
we're gonna have to kill some people,

but let's set a rule that you can't
kill anyone unless you've seen them

in at least one episode before, so
that they know we're playing fair.

Rob: It's a particularly horrific episode.

And the Vidiians as a species were
particularly, Kronenberg esque with that

Kevin: They were I, I remember going, this
is not what I want outta my Star Trek.

I'm like, in hindsight, I think they add
a very powerful bit of spice to Voyager,

especially in those earlier seasons.

And the fact that they are used
sparingly over the run as that specter

of oh, every once in a while it's
like, it could be the Vidiians, and

you're like, oh, no, I hope it's not
the Vidiians and like the boogeyman

that you're grateful doesn't come back.

I think it works really well.

But I remember that first episode where we
met them and then this one where, they had

one of our favorite characters captive.

And I remember going, wow, I do
not want this to be Star Trek

Vidiians, because this is too creepy.

Rob: Yes.

And with elements of what was
appearing in this week's episode of

Picard, it was very brutal and very
nasty the Vidiians, and as it showed.

Like, Durst was put through the ringer
and not even acknowledgement of him.

And that broke my heart.

I'm there going, I know we've only met
this character once before, but this is

where, this is where arc storytelling
can really come into play and taking time

at the end of the episode to acknowledge
what we've lost and what that means.

And there's nothing, it's just oh,
poor B'Elanna, she was split in two

oh, but she'll go back together again.

But that will haunt her for,
another couple of minutes.

And then we have to move her on back
to, get, set her back to zero and

set everyone back to zero, which
is quintessentially the opposite

of what they were trying to do.

So that's where love hate
relationship with Voyager began,

where the hate started to intensify.

So yeah, Durst.

Kevin: We will have to do an
episode about Star Trek characters

split in two at some point.

Rob: Of course.

Will that be and then, or Star
Trek characters who merge into one.

Kevin: Don't give it away.

Don't give it away.

The real fans know what
we're talking about.

By any chance was your second Voyager
character Lieutenant Joe Carey?

Rob: No.

Well, I only had one Voyager character.

My next character is
from a different, so yes.

I'll let you go back to

Kevin: Well, Lieutenant Joe Carey
likewise a fairly unremarkable white

dude, although he did have red hair.

He, He had red curly hair, so you
might remember him as the red, curly

haired assistant chief engineer
who was almost promoted to chief

engineer at the very start of Voyager.

But then B'Elanna Torres was given
that job and he was the butt hurt white

dude who didn't get the job that he
felt was coming to him on the ship.

And this guy, I feel like did
get an arc, over a relatively

small number of appearances.

He too appeared episodes
of Star Trek Voyager.

He had four appearances in season one,
and then he disappeared for a good four

years, and he came back for one episode
each in season five, six, and seven.

And it was a lovely kind of implied arc
because I feel like at the start he was

very much that Starfleet engineer who
was there to butt heads with B'Elanna and

question her Maquis way of doing things.

And that served a purpose, but
that purpose passed and then

they stopped using the character.

But when they brought him
back in season five, he was a

much more kind of like mature,
well-rounded, bought into the team.

It was nice to see that
character having grown.

Although we didn't get to see the
growth on screen, it was a nice

kind of feeling of, oh, there's that
character we saw way back in season one.

Come a ways, it's good.

His ultimate demise is more poetic
than Hogan's, but not by a lot.

This is episode 24, an episode
entitled Friendship One.

And as you can tell from the
episode number there, this is coming

right up to the end of series.

So we're just a couple
of episodes from the end.

They were clearly like tying up loose
ends in this series and deciding who

would make it home and who wouldn't.

And sadly for Lieutenant Carey,
he was one of the ones who

is not going to make it home.

Friendship One is at this point,
Voyager is on the doorstep

of the Alpha Quadrant again.

And they are in regular
contact with Starfleet.

And Starfleet sends them on a mission.

They say, Hey, while you're in the
neighborhood, we sent out a probe a long,

long time ago, and it probably ended
up somewhere in your neck of the woods.

Would you mind stopping on your
way home and executing a search

pattern and seeing if you can find
our ancient probe Friendship One.

Voyager sure enough tracks down
its signal, and it turns out it

it deeply broke the planet that
it ended up making contact with.

This was Friendship One is a probe very
much in the spirit of the Voyager probes,

where it was sent out into who knows
where, with a message of peace and good

wishes from the people of planet Earth.

And the only problem with it is it
was powered by a anti-matter drive.

And so when it entered orbit of this
fairly primitive alien race, they took

it down to their planet, dissected
it, and went, we can use this.

And they adapted anti-matter or warp
technology for their own purposes before

they were ready for it, effectively
proving the theory of the Prime

Directive by destroying themselves.

Their power reactor that they created in
the image of that probe exploded and sunk

the planet into a nuclear winter that
survives to this day when Voyager rocks

up looking for their long lost probe.

And the surviving 5,000 people or so
on that planet who are all suffering

from radiation poisoning, they have
decided that what was done to them by

this probe was deliberate, that Earth
sent out this probe apparently with

a message of friendship, but in fact,
it was a Trojan horse hiding this

bomb that was destined to destroy
whatever uh, civilization it encountered

so that humans could conquer it.

So this whole episode is a, ironically,
for this week's episode is another

hostage situation where the crew that
goes down looking for the probe gets

taken hostage by the locals and Janeway
has to bargain for their release and

convince them that humans are not all
evil and that we are really here to help.

And in the end, she does succeed in that,
but not before Carey pays the price.

The leader of the planet allows
Carey to set up his transport

enhancers to, to be beamed up to
the ship in exchange for supplies.

But before he does he
says, I'm very sorry, Mr.

Carey, and shoots him in the chest.

And he is, he's killed off screen.

We hear Tom Paris over the
comm say, what are you doing?

No.

And then there's the
sound of a phaser blast.

And then The Doctor from sick
bay says they, they killed Carey.

And you see him with a smoking
chest burn on the floor of sick bay.

The final thoughts about Carey
in this episode are in a, in the

coda at the end of the episode.

Janeway is sitting in his quarters
looking at the ship in a bottle

that he had been assembling.

And he, it was a little
model of Voyager in a bottle.

And the story is that Carey was like
putting it together and he promised he

would get it done before they got home.

And all that was left was a single
warp nacelle to be added to it.

And and he didn't make it home.

But this to me feels like, apart from
his long absence from the series, the

fact that they took a character who
was grumpy and immature and not fully

formed at the start of the show, and
they brought him an a on an arc and

they gave him a semi heroic slash tragic
ending and they acknowledged his passing.

It felt maybe the best version
of this that we got from Voyager?

Rob: Yes, I believe that.

Yeah, that's a, that's the essence
of what we wanted with the, with

this type of show, is that a
character, he starts a particular way.

He comes in and out over the course
of the series, and if he is sacrificed

at the end, that hits us in some way.

And so maybe it was done in
a way to remind us of the

appearances he has done before.

Whether we, because he appeared
so infrequently, especially with

the last couple of seasons, we're
going, do you remember, Carey?

This is a way of remembering.

Kevin: There's a little bit of heavy
lifting at the start where like Tom

Paris, who's, B'Elanna is about to
give birth to their child and he's

really sensitive about her going
on away missions, and so they're

bonding as father and father to be.

So they conspicuously mention
that Carey has a wife and

children before they kill him off.

And so they do a little bit of that
just in case you forgot who this person

was, let's build him up again for you,
right at the start of this episode.

And what I did like is, although his death
does pass pretty quickly, and the crew

of the Voyager who are trying to win over
these, this alien race pretty quickly

allow the outrage over Carey's murder
to pass a and get back to the business

of trying to win over these aliens.

Janeway is the last person to let it go.

She is outraged and that
for her is the last straw.

She says, you know what,
I was here to help you.

I was gonna try and demonstrate that
you were wrong about us, but you

don't win over Janeway by murdering
her crew members in cold blood.

So that's it.

That's the line.

And Neelix and Tom Paris talk her over
and they're like, you know what, this

is just one man out of a race of 5,000
who deserve saving, and if you don't

respond to this, you can prove them wrong.

Rob: Yeah.

Good choice.

Excellent choice.

Kevin: What's your second one?

Rob: I'm gonna go it has been mentioned
earlier in the previous episode where not

as well executed as that and hamstrung.

We're going with the death of
Lieutenant Commander Airiam

from season two of Discovery.

Now this is an interesting one
where Airiam has appeared a

couple of times in season one.

They changed the actress, they

Kevin: Yeah, they sure did.

Rob: one to season two.

Yep.

Kevin: They said, we're gonna
kill off your character.

How do you feel about that?

She's like, I'll only do it if you
get someone else to play my death.

And I get to come back at the end of
the episode as a different person.

I don't know how.

It is more absurd the longer we have
to live with what happened there.

They're like, we want to kill the
character, but we want to keep the actor.

Rob: Yeah.

And so a lot of heavy lifting to explain,
and to almost manipulate us into caring

about this character who was only really
a glorified extra in the background.

In many ways, most of the bridge
crew, all of the bridge crew were

glorified extras in season one.

Kevin: That's the tragedy, Rob, is
they had every opportunity to create

this character for us over many
episodes and make us care about them

and feel their loss, but they left
it to the last minute and it played

completely hollow, as a result.

Rob: Ah, I mentioned it cuz I had my ups
and downs with season one, mostly downs.

But then when season two started
and you've got Pike on the bridge

as the captain and the first thing
he does, he sits down cuz they're

so used to Lorca being an asshole,
and he just goes, name yourself.

Who are you?

Who are you?

Who are you?

And you're going, yeah,
it's taken an entire season.

And when they announced themselves,
I'm going, yeah, I didn't know any

of that bridge crew's first name.

Kevin: She was in 21
episodes of Discovery.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: 21 episodes, and they had to
introduce us to her as a person in

the same episode that they killed her.

Rob: Yep.

And like her name, I, we didn't
even know their name all that time.

She of course is cybernetic and
she is taken over by Control, who

are the, the AI force that wanna
wipe out humanity in season two.

And she's the one who's been
manipulated by the Control system

throughout the entire season two run.

She is taken over to the point
where she's in an airlock.

Doesn't make any logical sense cuz she's
been taken over completely, but she

regains lucidity just enough time to
tell Burnham to open the lock and she's

transported out into space and then
there's, they have a big funeral for her.

And, Tilly stands up and does this
empowered speech about her and the entire

audience go, I'm glad you are feeling
something, because we are feeling nothing

and no matter how much you've tried to
make us feel something, we don't care.

It's manipulative and back-pedalling,
and it was so awkward.

So awkward.

Yeah, that one didn't ring true for me,
and that's one case of them trying to

put more import into a glorified extra.

Kevin: The tragedy of it, Rob, is
that it could have been such a rich

character like this could have been
the Commander Data of Discovery.

The stuff they built at the last
minute in that final episode, that

this was a character who had a limited
memory capacity and she had to choose

which memories to keep loaded in
her brain and which ones to offload.

What a rich tapestry of storytelling
possibilities that would've unlocked,

but instead it was a throwaway idea for a
throwaway character in a throwaway demise.

Rob: And that's the thing.

Yeah, she showed up in so many
episodes, but she was only ever

there sitting down while they focus.

And that's the thing.

The problem for me for Discovery
is it was never an ensemble.

It was always the Michael Burnham show.

And when Michael Burnham is really
annoying, in my opinion, it's hard

for me to watch a show where its
lead character is so annoying.

Kevin: They have one season
yet left to get it right, Rob.

Rob: They do.

But that means I have to now
go back and watch the season I

haven't watched so I can catch up.

I haven't watched season four, so I
have to watch four before we do five.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: So yes.

Airiam we hardly knew you, and
uh, you tried so hard to make

us care that you are gone.

Kevin: She's still there in a way,
as her replacement human character.

Rob: It's so odd.

Kevin: It is so strange.