Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It is time to discuss the latest
in Star Trek, and what other

topics lead from that discussion.

We have the final episode of
Picard season three to talk about.

With me, as always every
week, is Kevin Yank.

How are you?

Kevin: Pleasure to be with you, Rob.

Rob: It is an absolute pleasure to
finally get down to the nuts and

bolts of The Last Generation and hear
your thoughts, and share mine with

you, and see where we come to in the
middle ground, in the neutral zone.

Kevin: one last time around the poker

Rob: Exactly, and a
shot that just lingers.

It doesn't want to go.

A shot that doesn't wanna leave.

And just like most of the fans
did not want the show to end.

Incredible.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: So what were your first impressions
with the the concluding episode?

The second part of our two part finale,
and the last episode of all these

regular characters together in the one
place again for the, for the foreseeable

future, which is pretty much it.

What were your thoughts?

Kevin: This was real good.

They, they stuck the landing.

There were things that raised my eyebrows
and kind of went, was that really

necessary or, that was a bit much.

And I have to say, having watched
it a second time, with the surprise

gone, the overarching impression is
just how confident and purposeful

and clear a story they told here.

They got all of the, What do
you mean, they've injected Borg

programming into everyone's DNA?

They got all of that weirdness out of
the way last week, so that this week

could be a relatively, in my view,
straightforward that didn't confuse

anyone, didn't lose any fans along the
way, and rather just indulged in a big

spectacle in which every character we
cared about had an important part to play,

and on every front they just nailed it.

Rob: There's been a lot of talk online
about finances and about how much

money has been put into this show,
and joking about the return to that

bar and how often it's been used.

But it really was a clear indication
of clever writing, a showrunner

who knows what the fans want, and
also what a good story needs, but

also how to use that money wisely.

So to, be economical when you need
to be for, closeups and set shots

and CGI shots, but also saving money
for some incredible shots of, the

Enterprise D coming down within the
Borg ship circling around to pick

Kevin: swoops in over their

Rob: in the lights and the smoke
and the and the foam and the,

and the wind and everything.

Just

Kevin: And the the Borg
Queen going, Come on!

Rob: Yes, it was very much, it was
incredibly satisfying end and just, Even

though I'm not as huge a Next Gen fan, I
have an infection for that crew and to be

drawn into it so that I felt like yourself
and many others who have lived that seven

season story, those four movies and has
been a part of your life for decades,

and I've been on that outside periphery.

But I felt very much welcomed in to, to
to enjoy them for one last time and feel

a part of that collective experience.

Kevin: So this being the biggest of big
finishes, I think we, we decided this

week what we're gonna be reflecting on
in the rest of the Star Trek canon is

big finishes, final episodes, endings,
and whether they were successful or not.

Perhaps how they compared to this
week's money infused extravaganza.

Having watched this and then gone back
and watched some other endings in Star

Trek, just how much money there is here.

This looked more expensive than
most of the Star Trek films to me.

And some of the endings of Star Trek
series that were like, just barely able to

make it to the finish line of their last
season, were real cash strapped affairs.

And you could tell compared to this,
where if no expense was spared,

it felt like, at least in this

Rob: Yes.

Some going out with a whimper, not a bang.

But yes, it would be great to explore
which ones work, which one didn't work.

Kevin: Yeah that, that was definitely
on my mind here of just how much of

these Changelings and secret sons
are we actually going to care about.

When this, when all is said and done,
it's probably gonna hinge on whether this

story got us somewhere that mattered.

And I feel like to this week, it

Rob: Yeah, definitely.

Like you said, it was really focused in.

Everything has been set up to this
point, and so we could focus on what was

important, stripping it back to Picard
and his relationship with all the people

around him and the connections with that.

Him as a father, him as captain, him
as an admiral, and the people around

him and how they associate with it.

Kevin: I said that this was a simple
story here by the end, and yeah, in broad

strokes, if we were to summarize this,
it was the Enterprise D goes to find a

Borg cube at Jupiter, flies through it,
blows up the thing and rescues Jack.

Meanwhile around Earth, Seven and
Raffi fight back the assimilated crew

of the Titan and do some swooping
runs on the fleet that are attacking

Spacedock, slowing them down just
enough to prevent the destruction

of all of the cities on Earth.

And that's it.

The end.

Rob: And it really is a case of the Earth
is being at its most threatened that it

has been, and it's all on one person.

So if you just disconnect that one
person, Jack, everything's fine.

So it really is this case of

Kevin: They needed to
unjack Jack, as it were.

Rob: Exactly.

Kevin: What else stood out

Rob: Well it, it started off
with a homage to mah whale movie.

Not only did we have Walter Koenig back
as as the descendant of Pavel Chekov,

he said the famous line from Star
Trek that all presidents need to say.

Do not approach Earth.

Kevin: Star Trek IV reference!

Yeah, absolutely.

If you like stories where
ships are told not to approach

Earth, go watch Star Trek IV.

Rob: And how are you with doing
impersonations of your relatives?

Cause

Kevin: Well, we know in Star
Trek that relatives are identical

twins of their forebears.

So, I think he, Walter Koenig
had an easy assignment here.

The moment his, his voice appeared,
I went, I know who that is.

And then he announced
himself as Anton Chekov.

And I was like, oh, wow.

Every fan did the same mental math
and it went Chekov, not Pavel Chekov,

Anton Chekov, Anton Yelchin, who
played Pavel Chekov in the JJ movies.

Beautiful stuff.

Where it lost me is when he did
the accent, As my father would've

said, Hope ees nyeever lost.

I just went, oh no, you took it too far.

I was rolling my eyes in
the first 30 seconds, so it

was touch and go there for a

Rob: Yeah.

I could see.

I'm they're going, why didn't
they have a video of him?

And then they're going, all right.

Okay.

They're gonna indulge a little bit here,
and when I say a little, a hell of a lot.

Kevin: Some beautiful Enterprise
D flybys and the exact same angles

that we saw every week, again and
again, ad nauseum during the TV

series, but this time upscale to 4k.

With all of that incredible lighting
and model detail, that ship has

never looked better, and they
showed it to us at classic angles.

Certainly, at least until it started doing
the bombing run through the Borg cube

where we saw it from every possible angle.

But they definitely took the time
to reverently revisit the way we are

used to seeing this ship at great

Rob: There were those moments.

I mean, it

Kevin: They were playing all the hits.

They had Riker's foot on the

Rob: they did, he didn't do it.

He didn't do it on Data's side,
he did it on Geordi's though.

Kevin: As soon as I saw that Borg
cube sticking out of the clouds of

Jupiter's Great Red Spot with its
pointy antennas, and then the shot in

profile of the arc of the planet the
cube shrouded in the, those red clouds

and the tiny Enterprise floating in
front of it with the sun lens flaring

all over the place in the background.

I just went, okay, this is special, now.

This is, this feels like more than just
playing the hits, they are now creating

something beautiful and new here.

That that's, that's when it hooked me.

And it went to the opening
credits at that point.

I went great.

I'm on

Rob: And there was definitely that
balance of, a finale told in two stories.

So the old generation
and the new generation.

So we see the struggle to keep the
Titan disconnected in some way.

So those surviving old curmudgeons, Seven
of Nine oh, send her out to pasture, not.

I'm being sarcastic.

And techno babble of going,
all right, we've created this

teleportation portable device thingy.

Let's see.

I'm there going, oh, that's a good amount
of techno-babble in the short amount

of techno in a short amount of time.

Kevin: I do not envy the writing challenge
nor the acting challenge for all the

people involved in those B plot scenes
of, you are going to be up against the

tear jerking nostalgia fest of the bridge
crew of the Enterprise D going on their

suicide mission into the Borg cube.

You know that every one of your
scenes will be cutting away

from that to, I'm just a chef.

I, I only took one week of pilot school.

You've got this son.

That was hard stuff to— I think it
would've been hard to instill that with

the same amount of gravitas and importance
as what was going on around Jupiter.

And I think they mostly succeeded.

Rob: is the one, one of the few signs
where I am grateful for season one and

two of Picard, not for how they were
ultimately presented, but what that

has done for Seven of Nine's character
and what we've seen of Seven of Nine

evolve from season one to now, to get
to the point where she can with the

gun swinging over her shoulder, look
at this guy and just say, you got this.

And it's just like I'm there going,
this is not just three years of Picard.

This is decades out of the show.

This is, everything that Jeri Ryan
has been through to stand there and

take this and deliver that line.

And you go, that has been a journey
in itself, off screen and on screen

Yeah,

Kevin: Without skipping to the end, I
will say that, really Jeri Ryan carried

the B plot of this finale episode.

Raffi was there, other people were there,
but really, it was the Jeri Ryan and

showing us her in command with no one
to fall back on, no one to question her

what she can get done under pressure
and in leadership of a crew, a small

one, but a crew that not only sells
the potential for the Star Trek Legacy

series that the fans are now clamoring
for, but it sells for me that Jeri

Ryan can lead that show persuasively.

Yeah, Having watched this, I, the
only thing I want to be in a Star

Trek Legacy show is Jeri Ryan.

The rest can come along, but
I can take or leave them.

Jeri Ryan is the reason
I will be tuning in to

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, very much so.

I mean, I've discussed over the last
couple of weeks my issues with Raffi

as a character and Raffi with her
relationship with Seven of Nine.

And there's been a lot of talk about
how amazing it is that for this

moment there is, you know, someone
LGBTIQ+ represented in a captain's

role and a female and, all this type
of stuff and which is incredible.

But yeah, it is that thing of Seven
of Nine standing alone and proud

as themselves, not being tied to
anyone, cuz Seven of Nine in many

ways was defined by finding her
identity through her relationships

with the doctor, with Janeway,
with Tuvok, all that type of stuff.

And to hamstrung her to a relationship
that was thrown together with a handshake

in the last shots of a season, I've
talked about it many times before.

I'm all up for that representation,
but for her as a character.

It's her standing proud is, on
her own two feet, is incredible.

And the stuff with Raffi, with like her
connecting with her family again and being

able to, with jumping to the end with
Worf there going, be with your family.

Connect with your family.

You are no longer, you can no longer be
a spy cuz everyone knows who you are now.

So yeah, it was a big challenge.

But, Jeri Ryan continues to show, week in,
week out, whenever they bring her back.

She's just, she's ready for it.

Like you said, she had to do all the
heavy lifting going up against all of

the original Next Gen cast and never
there was a moment where you were

going, come on, cut back to them.

Kevin: Yeah.

Credit to them for not, getting Seven
and Raffi back together, or at least not

explicitly getting them back together.

That is the last thing we
care about in this episode.

They can explore if the captain
and the first officer are together

or not in that eventual series.

That dynamic was done on The Orville
where the captain and the first officer

are a separated couple and every once
in a while there's a bit of will they,

won't they do they miss each other?

Oh, this is nice.

Remember how it used to be?

And then professionalism prevails, or
they remember why they're not together.

And I think that dynamic
can work very nicely.

So I would look forward to that from Raffi
and Seven more than I would look forward

to the the couple running the Starship.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: I'm gonna call it
now, I think Raffi and Seven,

never getting back together.

I think that's done and dusted and
like so many other things about

season two that was as efficiently
and effectively canceled as possible

Rob: Yes, very much.

And don't make Jack a counselor.

That's the worst decision ever.

You wanted the shot of the three of
them at the, on the chairs together?

Put him at a desk, put him at
one of the operating stations.

Kevin: I wrote, give the guy a real job.

Special counselor to the
captain isn't even a role.

That's not counselor, that's like special
advisor, like, we'll bring you along

because you're Admiral Picard's son
much as they, he said, it's nepotism.

And they said no, you
earned this yourself.

You know what would've shown us that
he earned this himself, is him taking

a proper station and doing a real

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

He's the captain's
parrot on a pirate ship.

He's literally there.

He's he's Iago from Aladdin, going Whaark!

Crackers.

Kevin: Yeah.

That was my least favorite thing,
this whole episode, that after

Jack did such beautiful scenes
in the Borg cube with his father.

Oh.

Such good acting.

I was like, Jack, you're making me cry.

I didn't, of all the people who I
thought would make me cry this episode,

I did not expect it would be heartbreak
on Jack Crusher's face, but it was.

And then they threw it all
away here at the end by giving

him a fake job on the ship.

Just so they could have that
gag of, they gave the ship to a

pirate, a thief, and a con artist.

And I'm like, ah, come on.

That was, it was not a big enough
payoff to, to rob Jack of a real job.

I expect if this series actually
goes forward, that is one thing

they will slightly course correct.

And, he's at ops or he's
at the comms station

Rob: You need to have something specific.

It is the case of, oh, it's a little
gag at the end of a of multiple

endings, like a Return of the King.

But once you get down to the nuts
and bolts, you go, alright, okay,

now seriously, what are you doing?

Kevin: Take after his mother,
like he ran a medical rescue ship

with his mom for all those years.

Why wasn't he the Bones on that bridge,
standing behind the first officer

and the captain making remarks, um,
that would've been a great thing.

And then he goes down to sick bay
and that's his job on that ship.

That would've been awesome.

While we're talking about that B plot,
I'll just say I love the fact that

Stardock has quietly been upgraded to
be the sum total of Earth's planetary

Rob: like all of it.

Kevin: Like, I don't think
that has ever been true before.

In my impressions when we've seen
Stardock before in the films and

since, is it has really been, like
the name says it's the dock, it's

the parking garage for starships.

But in this, it is if something wants
to attack Earth, it has to go through

Spacedock, and all of those phaser
beams converging on that thing for

minutes on end with the fireworks
of the impacts just hitting its

shields for minutes upon minutes.

I thumbs up that upgrade just because
I am such a fan of that model, that

Rob: But it's a, it's a
new, it's a newer model.

It's got extra.

Kevin: the extra, it's
got the extra widgets

Rob: Yes.

Yeah.

Is that the technical term for it?

Kevin: Yeah.

That's the technical term.

And they rebuilt it in a year also,
like at the end of this, it takes

the last hit, tilts backwards, and
then someone says, Spacedock is down.

And a year later,

Rob: it's fine.

It's fine.

It's fine.

Yeah.

And there was that just that chilling
sense of when the possessed young

starfleet members were on the crew
and just how they're just talking in

this drone and there's just silence
and they're just going unauthorized

movement or unsanctioned movement,
and they're just fire, unsanctioned

movement, and they're just this
chilling sense of that's what's ahead.

And we haven't seen the
Borg in that way before.

That sense of there've been
just these, the, these lifeless

shiftless, spirits walking through.

Kevin: It's hard to find a new stage
of creepiness for the Borg that

makes us fear them again, and they
did at least approach that here.

If not, get

Rob: Exactly.

Just that, yeah.

Just that sense of this, this eerie,
abandoned mansion type feel that

you get in the old school horror
sense of just these voices just

talking with no emotion and they're
just repeating it like a program.

That was a tasty little bite
of this potential evolution.

Kevin: Geordi's daughters, Sidney
and Alandra really sold that for me.

If it had not been for those
two characters and especially

Sidney, whose character we had
gotten to know as a person.

Going back to our previous episode
about the hostage situation on the

bridge and the fact that we didn't even
know any of the people who were under

threat, here the fact that the Borg
right at the front of the pack each

time were Geordi La Forge's daughters,
and that we had seen them as people.

We knew what they cared about.

We knew their relationship
with their father.

That seeing the real people converted
to drones and threatening the

people, the very people they love.

That's what sold it for me.

If it had been just the rest of the
nameless bridge crew marching around

the corridors, it wouldn't have

Rob: Yeah.

Bajoran guy slightly not as bald as
the one who was killed off person.

Green Lady.

Yeah.

It's really interesting cuz they took,
made a moment of capturing the old with

the new, so you had that shot of Raffi,
the two La Forge kids and Seven of Nine.

So the four images there shown,
so Geordi could look at his

daughters and go, there they are.

But it gave this impression
of this is the future.

But then when you cut to the Titan
turned into the Enterprise G, Sidney's

there, but we're down one La Forge,
maybe they're down in engineering, maybe

they're down into the, with the warp core.

Kevin: Maybe so, yeah.

The only other thing about the events
in Earth orbit was something that

I noticed last week, but I didn't
mention when we talked, was the

formation of the fleet formation.

They're like circles or dots in the
middle or little like, uh, yeah.

I, the first time that happened
at the end of episode eight,

I was like, what is that?

I, I'm, I'm, I guess
they'll tell us next week.

And then those formations were more
and more prominent last episode

and they still didn't explain them.

I'm like, surely they'll tell us
this week, and they never did.

Um, there has, there's been
threads online with people going,

does anyone know what that is?

Nobody knows that that is.

Apparently the showrunner was
pinned down in some interview

and he said, it's Borg script.

It's meant to look like Borg writing,
but why would the Borg, you know, arrange

their fleet in the shape of their writing?

That, that doesn't
really make sense either.

What it smacks to me of is that the
script didn't say what formation they

were in, and when they just put them in
a random formation, like just a random

cloud of starships, they kind of went
that looks boring and underwhelming.

Let's do something more
visually interesting.

What could it be?

And the CG artist did five versions
and they went this one's based on Borg

script and Terry Matalas pointed at the
picture and went, that one looks the best.

And that's how it ended up that way.

As far as I can tell, there's no
story justification or function

for that, that formation.

And I find that a little

Rob: like what we talked about last
week of like when the Starfleet

younger crew become Borganized.

I think that's a word I just came
up with, either they become a Borg

or they become Ernest Borgnine.

Either way.

They had to visually show it in
a way of going, they were once

themselves and now they are Borg.

This was a case of this was
before when they were Starfleet.

Now they're Borg.

It was a case of we need to
visually show this in some

Kevin: Yeah.

How can a fleet of ships look

Rob: Yes

Kevin: and that's the best they could do.

Rob: Exactly.

We spent our time on the B plot.

Let's go back to the meat and
potatoes, what we're all there for.

We've already talked about Riker
putting his foot up, which we all love.

Kevin: I noticed that this is
yet another Defanged Borg cube.

It brought me back to the Borg cube
that they visited in Prodigy in the

episode Let Sleeping Borg Lie, where
it was like, oh, no, it's a Borg cube.

It's okay, they're all asleep.

It was the least scary Borg cube.

And in some sense, like this one was
both the most scary Borg cube we've

ever visited, because it wasn't Borg,
it was like zombie Borg on board, and

it was a real freak show over there.

But on the other hand, it was also
like they went, look, we know that

the Enterprise D all by itself is
outmatched by even a normal Borg cube,

let alone a giant one that they're gonna
be able to fly inside of in a minute.

So they needed to like turn down
the level of difficulty here

and I'm okay with it in the end.

I think the spectacle that it gave
us justified the slight back flip

they did there of it's a really scary
Borg cube, but it's not too scary.

But yeah, in the moment I was kind of
like, Hmm, 36% operational, you say.

That's pretty convenient.

They did nod to that, once the Borg
Queen started to make her speeches of

exposition, and she described the fact
that Janeway's neurolytic pathogen that

paralyzed them and the destruction of the
Transwarp Network when Voyager made its

way home at the end of that series, left
them, the Borg shattered and left her

as the Borg Queen, isolated and alone,
and all she could do was like feed on

what was left to her, which was that

Rob: And that's what she says,
like she's starving and was really

quite powerful description of it.

Kevin: Yeah, it was well justified,
but it was mighty convenient that

was a not too scary Borg cube.

Rob: Now it's been said it was
the voice of Alice Krige, so I

believe it was just like it was a
different actor in the Borg Queen.

Kevin: That's right.

There's a credited body double
who, who is like in all of the

latex and the fake ribcage hanging

Rob: Yes.

Do the acting.

And Alice just came in and
did her voiceover and they

synced it up beautifully.

So it was good to, we got a
sense of the old school bridge

and the old school crew there.

But now with the new element of Data
being part human in synthetic form, so

not just obligingly doing what they're
told and reacting and wanting to, bite

back a bit with the captain going, no,
I should come with you, and not wanting

to stay behind and coming up with their
gut leading them to do what to do.

And a great moment with
Geordi going Data, I said no.

I'm going, ooh.

Okay.

That's a little bit of a imbalance
of uh, status there, Geordi.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

When Data finally took control of the
Enterprise and flew that impossible

flight, it struck me that um, just how
many bridge crew are actually needed

because, Data was still sitting at
Ops and he was driving the ship, which

you do from the Conn at that point.

So Data really is superhuman here
to the point where I wonder is

anyone else here even needed?

I did appreciate like the decision for
Data to stay behind on the ship and Troi

like, calling that out and saying, look
if this is gonna be successful, we need

to maximize our chances, and that means
Data, you, our superhuman crew member

should be here on the ship where you
have the most resources at your disposal.

So yeah, I like that.

I think what we saw there is why we
cannot have a further adventures of

Data in because he barely needs a crew

Rob: Yeah, he just couldn't
operate a ship on his own.

And that's where you have to
suspend the reality of sci-fi,

of going what you love about it.

It's a massive ship that can only work
with people in all these sections.

You need to cut to Geordi in engineering
and trying to figure that out there.

And the doctor's in medicine.

You can't just do it all from one spot.

Kevin: It was lucky that Geordi was
needed in the command chair because

otherwise it would've been really awkward
that Geordi was still sitting there

in the driver's seat doing nothing.

I would've actually liked Data to
like jump across to the other seat

when he needed to fly the ship.

That would've been a
nice a nice little turn

Rob: Yeah, they did definitely
keep him there cuz they're

going, that's Data's seat.

He's gotta stay there.

Kevin: Yeah.

We're used to seeing him from that side.

that's his good side.

Rob: Of course if Data does carry on
with his adventures, he will need only

one crew member on the ship with him.

And that's Beverly Crusher
to operate all the guns.

Kevin: I know!

As I was saying before, that they gave
everyone something to do here, it was

like, okay, what is the doctor's job
going to be on this suicide mission?

It's been 20 years.

She's, she's run her own ship,

Rob: And she's been on the front line.

She's been out there in the Neutral Zone.

She is not the same person she was.

She's got a lot of

Kevin: These people are not
limited by their previous

roles and yeah, I loved that.

Leaving the Enterprise D and going
on that away mission, Riker, Worf and

Picard going after Jack, they spent a
good amount of time there making us feel

that these people might not come back.

That at least they believed
they were potentially making

the ultimate sacrifice here.

Seeing Troi wordlessly farewell her
husband and then shut her eyes tightly

to stop from crying, seeing Beverly let
Picard go because she wants her son back,

but realizing she may be sacrificing
two men in the hope of getting one back.

And all of that was delicious.

And the more they did it, the more I went,
okay, none of these people are dying,

because that would be too obvious now.

But still it was, the emotion was real.

I didn't need to be fooled into thinking
these people were going to die in order to

invest in the emotions of those moments.

And so that was like the, all these
years of all these characters paying

off in letting them have those moments
with each other, largely without

dialogue and, done through the acting.

Rob: And it, it did give you that
sense of, this isn't just routine,

another mission that they're doing.

This is a case of, no, this is all of them
at the twilight, that they're not as fast

and as on the ball as they used to be.

Apart from Worf who's taken stab
wounds and phaser fire, and he's,

and then he deserves a good nap.

He deserves a good nap at

Swords are fun.

I like how they, just, that reality
of how heavy the Bat'leth is, as well.

That's type of reality stuff,
that detail is really cool.

I like bringing that stuff in.

Kinda like in the first Xmen movie
when they reveal every time wolverine's

claws come out, it hurts every time.

Those type of things are like,
the weight of it in, that

type of stuff I really liked.

And his final lines to Picard
were amazing, beautiful stuff,

two words we don't like to admit
that we know defeat and farewell.

That was, he's good, Michael Dorn, gee.

Kevin: We had another
face-off in a CG void.

That was two in one season.

Rob: And it's just so easy for
Picard to go straight back into Borg,

just gets a cord it into his neck.

Kevin: Against the queen's wishes!

She's going, nooo.

And he is like, you can't stop me if I
stick this thing in my neck, I'm connected

and I am face to face with my son.

That was like, okay,
we'll go along with this.

Rob: We need to get inside that
face-to-face confrontation.

This has been accumulation of nine
episodes beforehand, of Jack feeling alone

and left out and not having real, any
place to go and finally finding his home.

Kevin: Yeah, a lovely, subtle twist of
you think that's because you had Borgness

implanted in your genome, but no, that's
because you are a son of Jean-Luc Picard,

a famously socially awkward individual,
who never quite fit in anywhere except

on the bridge of his own starship.

That is such character driven
storytelling there that what ultimately

put these characters in the situations
they found themselves was not Borg

transporter code plot McGuffin stuff.

It was the true characters
of these characters.

Rob: And a beautiful moment of Picard
accepting that, he will stay with his

son rather than leave him, which we
could see a mile away, but it was good.

And Patrick Stewart did incredibly
well with those scenes just

in front of a green screen.

Kevin: I've never wanted a
hug from Jean-Luc Picard more.

Rob: Yeah.

I think we should all
get in line for that.

So, yeah, that led into the Troi
saving the day, finally reconnecting

with her husband and being able
to find exactly where they are.

Kevin: The first of many bookends in
the way this episode played out is Riker

saying, I love you, Imzadi on that Borg
ship, lighting up that between them.

It was a callback directly to the first
time they both appeared on screen together

on the bridge, in Encounter at Farpoint.

Troi walks onto the bridge and says, Do
you remember what I taught you, Imzadi?

Can you still hear my thoughts?

And that word that they made fun of just
a few episodes ago, that word connects

them in a way that saves the day.

Here saves four characters lives.

Troi famously often did not have
a lot to do, and I, I'd say in an

episode where everyone had something
to do, Troi's something to do, felt

maybe a little crammed in there.

But the fact that once again, it
was a character payoff sold it.

Rob: Yeah.

And beautiful, obvious
line, but I did love it.

I'll wait for you with our boy.

You go, oh my gosh, are you kidding me?

Frakes bringing the,
bringing the A game every

Kevin: Yeah.

No, no you look after our
daughter, I'll wait for you with

my boy, like the daughter again,

Rob: completely left out.

What the hell, man?

And they've gone away on a
holiday apparently at the end.

What about the daughter?

Kevin: It's gonna be home

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.

Hopefully she deals with her
daddy issues better than Tom

Paris did, that's for sure.

So yes.

Kevin: Yeah, the endings here
start with a log entry by Riker who

says, Stardate, shall we say one?

And I said, no, Riker we shall not.

I d I don't care how big of a grand finale
you think you have here, you don't get

to reset the calendar in a log entry.

Rob: It.

Look it's a good finale,
but it's not resetting

Kevin: Mm,

No.

It is not uh, in a, in in an
episode that validated all of

history to go, okay, now we're like,
we're in the New Testament, now.

I don't know about that.

I certainly don't think Riker has a big
enough ego to think that his adventure is

worth declaring it a new calendrical era.

Rob: I dunno how you feel it is with how
appropriate it is in a connection to Riker

as a character, but he's very cheeky after
an overextended session for synth Data,

who's going through an emotional crisis
just when he sees a crewman with a cat.

And Riker comes in and
goes, still batsshit, huh?

Kevin: I'm a little uncomfortable with
how much Riker A, is becoming sweary and

B, is using batshit as his catchphrase.

That's not the first time that Riker
has uttered that term in this season.

And yeah, it's I'm not
sure I'm there for that.

Rob: And

Kevin: It was worth it
to see Troi say, Stop it.

Rob: Yes.

And to see her subtle acting again
of rolling her eyes going, come on.

I want, I wanna be anywhere but here.

Kevin: Shopping for uh, holiday
on her PADD while he is talking.

So good.

We got Tuvok

Rob: We did get Tuvok back.

The real Tuvok, and again, this is a
thing, another wave of the hand thing.

We've had, eight episodes of the
Changelings being this massive threat.

And then with, you know, a wave of the
hand with a description going, not only

can we identify all the Changelings
now thanks to Beverly Crusher, amazing,

good work, admiral, but all those
ones that we thought had been killed.

Oh no, they were very valuable.

So we all got them

Kevin: Yeah, they were
being kept for information.

I am told the original script even had Ro
Laren survive that somehow somehow they

had beamed her off her ship and she was in
the same gulag that Tuvok was found in.

But that all happened off screen
here, and it was quickly waved away

in Riker's log entry, but Tuvok and
Seven sitting across the table from

one another and Tuvok making Seven cry.

Oh my

Rob: It wasn't until I saw that scene
that, because I'd always remembered

the scenes that Seven had with The
Doctor that their relationship was

quite strong and her scenes with
Janeway of course, were very good.

But I'd forgotten that Seven of Nine and
Tuvok had built up a quite a mentoring

type relationship as well, so that was
quite powerful to have that whole scene

acted out and have Shaw come back with
one last tear jerking hit in the stomach.

Kevin: Yeah, I don't know about
that, uh, log entry from Shaw.

That guy, I still don't
understand that guy.

The fact that before any of this
happened, he was willing to admit in a,

in his personal log that he should more
accurately call her Seven of Nine, and

then he spent the entire mission refusing
to call her that even when she told him

to, even when she had earned his respect
and told him to, he still wouldn't do it.

I don't wanna speak ill of the dead,
but in some ways that guy was a schmuck.

Rob: An asshole from Brooklyn is
is too kind a description for Shaw.

Lot of levels to him.

You always hurt the one you
care about the most, I dunno.

But yes.

Great to have Tim Russ back as actual
Tuvok and him working beautifully.

Jeri Ryan, can we just give her a show?

Come on guys.

Come

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

You mentioned briefly Crusher being
promoted to Admiral of Starfleet Medical.

In my heart, Beverly Crusher has been
Admiral of Starfleet Medical ever since

she left The Next Generation in the middle
of its run, and Pulaski came on board.

Like the the story there is she had
gone to Starfleet Medical, and in

my mind, she was running the place.

So the fact that she is now running
the place is just like reestablishing

what I already felt to be true.

Rob: Vindicated.

Kevin: We get the trip into
Spacedock to see the Enterprise

Rob: and we see the Crushers and Picard
together in this familial type setup.

And there's

Kevin: Yeah.

No Laris.

No Laris, I might add.

Rob: Justice for Laris is a hashtag
going around, but Laris was great.

Laris just said, look, I'm,
she was leaving the vineyard.

She was going back to one of the moons of

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

Who even remembers?

She's sitting at that bar table,
still waiting for Picard to

Rob: You know what, I don't, I
think she's off doing a thing.

She's, Picard's in them, her
mind, but she's moving forward.

Kevin: That is clearly left ambiguous
for us to make up our own mind.

My version of it is that
Picard did go home to Laris.

He did make that date.

It just happened off screen,
like so many other things here.

And that he also, he has Beverly and
his son in his life and when there is

a family moment for the three of them
to do together, they get together.

But they weren't holding
hands, they weren't snuggling.

It for me, they are their friendly

Rob: Look, it is, yeah, it is
that case of Laris was amazing.

She's confident herself, no jealousy
at all, and understands where

this positioning is and goes yep.

This is where I'll be to wait for you.

And this, Beverly and Picard have
realized we tried 5, 6, 7 times.

It's never

Kevin: Yeah, if she was the one
who'd got away and they had never

made a go of it, then great.

I would be on board with the romantic
notion that reunited the dam burst and

they finally fell into each other's arms.

But that is not this relationship.

The counter argument is Picard says
several times that the discovery of being

a father and having a son changed him.

And maybe it changed him into a man
that could settle down with Beverly

Crusher, but that to me is less
interesting than Crusher and Picard being

co-parents, people who love each other
but are not in love with each other.

And Laris gets the admiral she deserves.

Everybody's happy.

Everybody's happy.

Is all I want

Rob: Oh, look and look, and a
part of me is they're going, look,

Beverly doesn't wanna settle down.

She's finally back in a
position of admiralty that she's

deserved, clearly, for decades.

So she's not gonna be settling down.

She's got shit to do.

She's got, transporter programs that
are magic wand solutions to not only

the Borg infection, but also can now
identify Changelings, which they said

clearly they couldn't do a couple
of, cuz it was so impossibly hard.

And no talk of a virus,
so I'm very happy of that.

Kevin: So it's the Enterprise
G, it's no longer the

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: What did you think of

Rob: Yeah, I was a bit
confused with it all.

I didn't pick it up until the second time.

And again, I think that was
more of a, a, saving their money

to have the exact same set.

Kevin: But it's such a Star Trek IV moment
of coming into Spacedock and going, oh,

we're gonna get the Excelsior, and you
fly over top and no, it's the Enterprise

Rob: Well it's, that's the thing.

It's the titan.

It's not the Titan.

That was a beautiful moment.

Names don't mean anything at all.

And Jack goes, names mean everything.

Kevin: Seven of Nine, what do you
think her go to warp phrase will be?

Rob: Uh, woohoo.

Kevin: Woohoo?

I really want it to be, Let's go.

I think her saying, let's
go would be awesome.

Rob: Has she said that as a

Kevin: No, she's never said, let's go.

But she's also never been a Starship fan.

She's never been known to
make models in her quarters.

So I think there's room for anything here.

And I just imagine Jeri
Ryan saying, let's go.

And it feels both playful and powerful.

Rob: So Pike's is punch it or hit it?

Kevin: Yeah, that's right.

Rob: Kirk doesn't really have one does he?

Kevin: No, he didn't
really have one back then.

I think that in this there
was um, take her out.

He has said take her out once
or twice in the films because

they were leaving Spacedock.

And in the scene here they say, will it be
take her out, engage, make it so, so there

was like a playing there fast and loose,
I think with the idea that Kirk's would be

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

Like he had at the end of Star
Trek IV, Let's see what she's got.

And they made a joke
to that in Star Trek V.

And then in Star Trek VI, he did
the beautiful second star to the

right and straight on till morning.

Kevin: Honestly it's
gotten too cute for me.

I wish they would not like have
the characters be self-aware.

I would if it is much more satisfying
when they say it with a straight

face than when they say it winking.

And I don't know if you saw it
in the trailer for season two of

Strange New Worlds, we're gonna get
Spock's one and it is ridiculous.

Rob: That was a

Kevin: He had better be drunk.

He, that is the only other time I have
seen Spock be that ridiculous, was

drunk Spock in The Animated Series.

He had better be in under the
influence of something to be saying,

I want to make the ship go now.

Rob: Yeah.

I get it.

Cuz Engage was never a catchphrase.

It was just an order, an instruction.

Kevin: Catchphrases are made by characters
saying things that feel natural to them.

When a character pre meditates
their catchphrase, you

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.

It is.

They're putting a bit too much
pepper on it in the new shows.

So yeah.

So woohoo?

Kevin: So to 10 Forward at last.

Oh, sorry.

One more thing.

In all of these closing scenes before we
go to 10 Forward, something I noticed a

lovely detail is their badges turned gold.

When we jumped ahead a year, the
badges changed from black backings

to gold backings, and we have seen
those gold badges once before.

We saw them in the future shown in
Star Trek Voyager's finale Endgame.

Admiral Janeway comes back
from a future in which they are

wearing those exact gold badges.

And it was so satisfying when they
said one year later and suddenly

everyone was wearing those gold badges.

It was like, we made it,
everyone, we made it to the better

future that Janeway created for

Rob: We go.

And so it's all and tied in.

But yes, we finally get back to the bar.

We have a reference to
Guinan who's just off stage.

Kevin: She's hanging out with Ro Laren.

Rob: She is.

She and Janeway as well.

That's where Janeway has been this

Kevin: Yep.

They have a talk show
in, in the 25th century.

It's called The View from 10 Forward.

Rob: It writes itself.

And it wouldn't be a Star Trek show
without a a Shakespearean reference.

I know the movies very
much with Nicholas Meyer.

Kevin: an off color limerick.

Rob: What's that?

One day he'll get that,
he'll get that limerick out.

Kevin: The original went there
once was a woman from Venus whose

body was shaped like a, and then
he gets interrupted in the original

Rob: of course.

Didn't even get that far.

They knew too much.

They knew too much.

So yes, Shakespearean Royal Shakespeare
Company Patrick Stewart does deliver a

beautiful monologue from Julius Caesar.

Kevin: I wanna believe, and I would
be shocked if it were not true

that they just said to Patrick
Stewart, page in the script.

Say something Shakespearean.

Patrick Stewart has been on his
Instagram through the lockdowns of the

pandemic, he was reading Shakespeare.

Yeah, he was reading sonnets and so
I think they trusted Patrick Stewart

with this one and said, Hey, bring
us something appropriate to the

moment that hasn't been overdone.

And he said, I know exactly the one.

Rob: We haven't done Julius Caesar.

We've done Hamlet, Angels and
ministers of Grace defend us.

And yeah, oh, of course, Cry havoc.

Let slip the dogs of war.

The chimes of midnight.

All those type of, beautiful ones.

Julius Caesar not the most obscure,
but in the pathon of mainstream

Shakespeare, not a deep cut, but
definitely a manageable cut in the

way of Shakespearean references.

Kevin: You probably know your
Shakespeare a little better than I do,

although I do enjoy some Shakespeare.

I don't think I've ever seen
Julius Caesar, at least in full.

I think I've seen parts of the film.

But what is your read on the
appropriateness of this speech

to this moment, cuz for me, as
someone who doesn't know the play,

it felt extremely appropriate.

This idea that fate
comes for you as a tide.

And if you don't let yourself
be swept away with it,

you'll miss out on your life.

And that they have all been
traveling together on this swollen

tide of fortune that has taken them
where they needed to be together.

And it felt so appropriate, almost
impossibly so, that I almost, I

almost worry that that speech meant
something completely different

Rob: No.

Within Julius Caesar, it's very
much about how you make your own

fortune and your own destiny.

And whether you as always in historical
stories like that, you trying to defy

destiny or the will of the gods and the
hubris that you have, and especially

with, you know, it's uh, Brutus take,
really, about the lengths he's willing

to go to gain the power that he needs.

And so it's very much a play in
two halves where you have this

first section of political intrigue
and conspiracy and ambition.

And then the second half is just warfare
because of what's being created by the

death, the murder, the assassination
of this highly regarded ruler.

So it is very much a pondering of men,
particularly, and their ambition and

their fate and their desire to make
their own fortune or what they're

willing to sacrifice to get further
ahead with what they believe they

deserve or what they are entitled to.

It's yeah, there's a bittersweetness
to that particular soliloquy that

Picard delivers, which makes it
even better, is that it's not

soppily sweet or purely poetic.

There's a, there's an edge
to it, which I really like.

Kevin: And he whips out the ace of spades.

Rob: Now, is that a particular,
is that how they always started

off a card game or is that

Kevin: No.

No.

In fact, it took me a
moment when he did it.

I was like, what?

I don't get it.

And then they said, yes, let's play.

And I was like, oh, of course.

It's the poker game.

It's the poker game
that it had to end with.

The poker game itself obviously
has great significance.

That is the parting shot of All
Good Things, the series finale of

Star Trek: The Next Generation.

The crew has always played poker without
Picard, and for the first time he

awkwardly steps into the room and says,
I wondered if you'd mind if I joined you.

And they said, you were always welcome.

And Picard says, I should have
done this a long time ago.

And then he deals out the hand and then
we get the spiraling shot above the table

as it pulls up out through the ceiling.

To the Enterprise flying
off into the distance.

And that's how Star Trek:
The Next Generation ends.

So how appropriate to put them around
that table, once again, spiraling above

the table, but this time refusing to
leave them and spiraling back down.

Rob: The rumors going around that they
shot, that they just let the cameras

roll and just let these friends who,
as they to say they, they keep in touch

and see each other regularly, just spend
that time and pick up all of this stuff.

The laughs, the giggles, the
interactions that you just get

this sense of uh, that camaraderie.

Kevin: Yeah, it worked and it didn't.

Like, it so worked because it was
such a reflection of that powerful

ending from the series and revisiting
that all these years later, and it

feeling that much more nostalgic.

It worked because these actors
actually like each other and seeing

them hang out and laugh together
is genuine and you feel the love.

It didn't work because you could
tell they were improvising and I

think you could tell why during the
series, they were told never, ever to

improvise that they were under strict
instructions to stick to the script.

Because the language of Star Trek and
of those characters is so specific

when you get these actors, when you
let them, and you don't tell them

what words to say, they slip into
their own modern day turns of phrase.

I am positive, for example, that
Riker would never say oy-yoy-yoy

when looking at his cards.

That was not Riker, that was Frakes.

And there was a bunch of that stuff
going on, like when Geordi calls the game

and Troi goes, Whatever that is, that
was Marina Sirtis straight up and down.

That was not

Rob: At Least Michael Dorn
was still in character.

Michael Dorn was very
aggressive in character.

So, he gets the MVP yet

Kevin: But he doesn't know
how to play poker, I noticed.

The other thing is, if you pay attention
to the cards flying around the table in

that long lingering shot, some of the,
some of them know how to play poker and

they have one card down, and each new
card that was dealt to them is face up.

Other ones were not so sure.

They had all their cards down.

They had all their cards up.

It was very inconsistent.

And the dealing was not great either.

Sometimes those cards were like getting
stuck under chips and bouncing into

the wrong person's hand and like all
of that, you can pick nits in it till

the cows come home, but the point was
that this was an ending that the actors

had earned as much as the characters,
and I think we were happy just to be

with them playing, in whatever form.

Rob: Exactly.

That was a case of that suspension,
of disbelief of there going,

this is what we wanted to see.

And this is, we're willing
to forgive certain blurred

lines to, to get that shot.

Kevin: And they should have stopped there.

That is my opinion about the Q
cameo at the end here is I was like,

oh, you were, it was so perfect.

Why did you have to go and

Rob: Yep.

They wanna set up.

They did so well with setting
up Strange New Worlds, and

they got that series approved.

So they want to go,

Kevin: If there was any doubt that they
had zero respect for anything that was

done in season two, it was like this
was the final nail in that coffin.

It was like, is there anything
else that we can undo from

season two to pretend it didn't

Rob: I have been saying this all season.

I've been going, they have been throwing
so much shade at season one and two and

thrown all of it, everything they have
strongly developed of two seasons, Matalas

has just gone everything you've done for
the first two seasons was all discarded.

Kevin: Yeah.

Much as I cringed, Q was
really great in that scene.

That is the thing is, I wish the
scene didn't exist, but also it's so

Rob: It's John de Lancie man.

Just get John de Lancie
in front of a camera.

He can read the phone
book and it's amazing.

Kevin: No.

Season two prove that is not true.

There is some, there was some weak Q stuff

Rob: Yeah.

I've already forgotten it.

Terry Matalas made me want to forget.

Yeah.

Showed that we could ignore it
and I was following his lead.

Kevin: All right, we have talked
for over an hour about this episode.

We have well and truly broken
our format where we promised each

other we would not do a recap
show, but this was a special event.

Let's get back to not beat by beating
these episodes in future, but it

was worth it this time around.

Let's talk about big finishes.

I've brought a couple that I wanna
reflect on and um, I wonder if we'll

match up cuz there aren't that many

Rob: that many.

When it comes to TV show endings,
I think that's what we're

gonna be mostly focusing on.

Yeah.

Kevin: And I already
mentioned All Good Things….

I think that one, unless you picked it,
Rob, I'm gonna say certainly if you've

not seen the series finale of Star
Trek: The Next Generation, and you're

sitting here listening uh, to us talk
for an hour about The Last Generation,

what are you doing with your life?

Go back and watch that thing.

It is a masterpiece.

I will call it now, it is even
better than what we got this week,

even under the budget constraints
of early nineties TV sci-fi.

It is an even better story
than what we got this week.

Rob: I admit I have seen it.

I haven't, I've only seen All
Good Things… once and it was

like over, oh god, 20 years ago.

And I had not earned
the right to watch it.

I had not, I'd been in and out
of Next Gen and so I watched it.

So I was lost.

I was completely lost.

And I finished watching it and
going, I haven't earned this yet.

I need to have watched everything else.

So when I get to that that, that finale.

I understand it.

And especially since Deep Space
Nine and Voyager, which I've

watched the finals of that I was
there for the whole seven years.

Kevin: It does somewhat reward a like
close viewers of the full seven seasons.

But I'd say the only required
viewing is the series Premiere,

Encounter at Farpoint, which sadly
is a bit of a slog for two hours.

And it's a shame you have to watch that
sloggy two hours where the characters

weren't sure what they were yet.

It was all very stretched out because
it started as a one hour story and

then they tacked the whole Q thing
onto it to pad it out to two hours.

So, Yeah I don't love it.

And the fact that a third or more of All
Good Things takes place in that episode,

they return to Encounter at Farpoint
and revisit some of the scenes, Picard

knowing that he is revisiting them,
knowing what's going to happen and playing

at the events differently on purpose.

It is, if you have sat through
Encounter at Farpoint, All Good

Things… is twice as good to watch.

I don't think you need to necessarily
know the details of anything else

that happens in those seven years.

Basically Q takes Picard, splits
him in three and says you are now

Picard in Encounter at Farpoint.

You are also Picard here
and now seven years in.

And you are Picard in the future, divorced
from Beverly Crusher with Data as a

Starfleet professor with a streak of
gray through his hair, and like all of

these let's jump ahead and see what the
future of these characters might hold.

Very satisfying, as is often the case
in these finales, a glimpse into a

possible future so that we don't have
to worry about what might become of

these characters when we leave them.

So yeah, definitely go watch that.

And the, the fact that q is there
at the beginning there at the end,

and here at the ending of the end is
very bookendy and poetic in a way.

But it's almost unfair.

To me that is the best series finale
of all time, All Good Things….

Rob: Oh, wow.

Wow, big call.

So well, yes I went with of course I
had to go with What You Leave Behind,

the finale of Deep Space Nine, which
has the big task of tying up the

Dominion War tying up the invasion
of Cardassia, tying up the plague,

which is ravaging the Founders, and
solve things with a Sisko and his

connection to the beings in the wormhole.

Kevin: This, like this week's episode, is
very much an ending to the ongoing story.

It isn't a coda, it isn't a
standalone thing, it is the climax

of the story that they have been
telling for several years by this

Rob: Definitely.

And yeah, it carries directly on
from the previous week's episode.

So you've got Gul Dukat has
gone full Bajoran and is having

an affair with with Kai Winn.

You've got Cardassia being invaded,
but then the Cardassians shifting

to allegiance with the Federation.

You've got the virus, which has now
got a cure, thanks to the episode just

before, and Odo connecting that way.

And Sisko's ongoing journey that has
been seven years all comes to a head.

And unlike you were saying about with
All Good Things, setting you off going,

this is a possible future, sending
things on with a safe, secure place in

your heart, it's What You Leave Behind.

The title says it.

There's this bittersweet sadness to it.

The final shot is a son looking
out into the emptiness of

space, missing his father.

Kevin: They're not afraid to let it hurt I
will say many nice things about our finale

of Picard here, but one thing it was
not, is courageous about making us hurt.

Like everyone got a happy
ending, everyone survived.

There was no like sting
of poison in the mix.

It was truly all good news.

Rob: Yes, and very much that's why I
got so emotional when we got to Lower

Decks and they finally returned to
Deep Space Nine, and how excited I got

that Kira's doing fine because, her and
Odo's relationship over seven years was

such a crucial part for me of the show.

And for them to find each other so
near the end of the show, and then

having this heartbreaking, but not
tragic, a heartbreaking goodbye where

Odo's responsibility as a member of
his species outweighs everything else.

And especially now with so much time
passed and with the passing of the

beautiful René Auberjonois, Odo and
Kira will never have that connection.

Kevin: Yeah definitely a minor
chord, this finale, like the entire

goal seemed to be bittersweet,
not happy ending, bittersweet.

Every good thing came at a

Rob: Exactly, and we got war has ended.

And, but the ripple
effect of that is felt.

And so it's the end of an era, and
letting that sink in and going, not

looking back and celebrating going,
this is what happens with change.

And so, you know, O'Brien leaving,
people moving on to other roles

and leaving behind this home that
we have been in for seven years.

Kevin: Yep.

Yep.

I'm gonna take us to Voyager's finale

Rob: mine as well.

Kevin: Endgame.

Great, we get to talk about it together.

So yes, it is halfway the culmination
of the story we've been having

all of this time, but not as well.

In a sense, I feel like Voyager had
wrapped up all of its unfinished business

before the start of this episode.

The only dangling thread, the
only question left to be answered

was would they make it home?

And that is the entire purpose of this
episode is answering that question

in an interesting enough, complex
enough, maybe convoluted enough way

to make something that felt worthy
of the seven years that came before.

And in that sense, it falls a little
short to me, especially on repeat

viewing, but I can still remember
the first time I watched this

episode and how abruptly it ends.

It has none of those multiple
endings, those, where do they end ups?

Those, it's all gonna be okays.

It's got none of the hugs, none
of the thank yous, none of the

drinks at the bar, none of that.

They literally emerge from a
transwarp conduit hidden inside

a Borg that then bursts apart.

The ship comes out and they
say to the assembled fleet,

oh, sorry it took us so long.

Let's go back to Earth.

Credits.

Like it is so

Rob: It is too abrupt.

It came across as far too rushed, and
it was just a case of let's just get

the hell outta here, as opposed to,
even with What You Leave Behind, even

though it's bittersweet, they take their
time to go, let's sit in this sadness

of moving forward and what we have
created, whereas this entire episode

just feels like racing to the end.

There's abrupt stuff brought in.

Like we've talked about it
before, like there's a scene with

Chakotay and Seven of Nine kind
of flirting and you're going that

Kevin: are so many scenes with
seven of nine in Chakotay.

That romance, which was just barely
hinted at in the episodes leading

up to it, and infamously even by
the actors now they say we, we had

no idea what they were doing there.

There was no chemistry.

And watching it yesterday, I'm like,
those actors, Jeri Ryan and Robert

Beltran are acting their butts off
to convince us that are in love.

But you can tell there is nothing.

They're like brother and sister,
in every scene they are in.

They smile at each other lovingly,
and I believe the emotion until

it cuts to the other person, I
go, what why about that person?

It makes no sense.

It is so weird and it comes outta nowhere
almost in this finale, in order to justify

in part the decision that Janeway makes.

I feel like this somewhat suffers from
the convoluted plot that they devised

for themselves, that Voyager would
make it home, but at such a great cost

that given the opportunity, Admiral
Janeway would come back and try to

change destiny so they make it home even
sooner, which is flying in the face of

a lot of things that, you know, Star
Trek fans hold dear, that you don't mess

with the timeline and that, if people
have lived out happy lives, you should

not mess with that because the future
you could create could be nightmarish.

But all of that is swept aside
in the face of two things.

One, Seven of Nine dies
before they make home.

And two, Chakotay is so heartbroken
by that fact that he dies an

unhappy man many years later.

And that's, oh, and Tuvok goes insane.

Tuvok loses his mind.

His brain stops working properly.

It would've all been fixed by a mind
meld if they made it home sooner, but

they didn't, so tragically he's left
a scribbling invalid in a hospital.

And that those three facts are enough
for Janeway to decide to break all the

rules, to go back in time, change the
past, and then Janeway as we know her,

refuses to go along with the plan and
says, no, I know you gave up everything

and risked everything to come back
here and change it, but I know better.

We're gonna do that and destroy
the Borg while we're at it.

And it's just, I think there is so
much set up for that dilemma, that

there's no time left to reflect
on what has happened after it's

Rob: Yeah.

And having that abrupt cutoff, we ha
we know nothing we know nothing about,

we have little hints of it earlier on
about what's going on with the holograms

in that time and, but it's just so many
characters that we've been with for

seven years, where you're just left
there going, they just, they did not let

the door hit their ass on the way out.

They just wanted to get out of that show.

Kevin: The thing that they try to do,
they try to have their cake and eat

it too, is they set up this future
that is not perfect, but it's good.

The Doctor is married, Harry Kim is
a captain, Tom Paris is bald, and has

a cool daughter who's running secret
missions for Admiral Janeway, like

all of that, and B'Elanna Torres is a
proud mother who misses her daughter.

Like all of that is, is cool.

And we get to spend actually quite a
lot of time like at a dinner party where

they get to see each other and reminisce.

The attempt to give us the fuzzy
happy ending is kind of there,

but then the story requires
that Janeway change history.

And we never get to see, do
those characters get their happy

endings, or is it different?

We never do until we get to see the gold
badges in Star Trek: Picard this week,

and I'm like, yeah, it still happened.

The good stuff

Rob: badges are there.

We didn't get, we didn't get a real
understanding or clarity or closure

with, the crew when they get home.

But we got the badges.

Kevin: The big showdown of Endgame
is really a one-on-one between

future Janeway and the Borg Queen,
and it makes the entire crew of

Voyager who should be the heroes in
their own finale, feel sidelined.

There's this shot where future Janeway
has poisoned the Borg Queen, and there's

a moment where like the Borg Queen
goes, you haven't destroyed us yet.

And they look at the view screen and
the USS Voyager flies past into the

transwarp conduit, which explodes, and
that is basically the thing that the

entire crew of the Voyager contributes
to this episode, is on a view screen,

they fly and blow something up and
then cut to, they make it home.

It's quite sad.

And uh, if you're ready for the segue,
it reminds me also of the series finale

of Star Trek: Enterprise, These Are
the Voyages…, in which, once again, the

stars of the show are relegated to being
guest stars in their own series finale.

Rob: of course Frakes
and Sirtis coming back.

Kevin: That's right.

These Are the Voyages… is very
much, the most charitable take

is that this was deliberately not
the series finale of Enterprise.

That it was an attempt to say goodbye
to Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star

Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager.

Right here, as they knew for the
first time, Star Trek was going off

the air and there wasn't a new series
coming to replace it, they wanted,

as they put it at the time, to write
a love letter to the fans who had

been with them through all of that.

And you can see that in the way that this
is structured is that there is a time

jump between the preceding episode of
Enterprise, which you might say is the

true series finale of Enterprise, although
it is, it resolves all the plot threads,

but it doesn't feel like a culmination
because that's not how it was devised.

Enterprise wanted to have three
more seasons on TV, but they got

canceled after their fourth season.

So what they did here, in These
Are the Voyages…, is they jumped

ahead in time, from when we
last saw all these characters.

And Enterprise is heading back
to Earth to be decommissioned.

Everyone's in slightly fancier uniforms,
different hairdos, they're acting a little

more mature, a little more comfortable
with each other, a little more familiar.

Especially T'Pol has loosened up.

T'Pol and Trip are no longer together.

They have been broken up for
quite some time, and then Riker

is on the bridge outta nowhere.

And this is all revealed to be a holodeck
simulation of the final mission of

the Enterprise NX-01, which Riker is
watching in order to figure out whether

to disobey orders or not, in an episode
of Star Trek: The Next Generation called

The Pegasus season seven, episode 12.

Yeah, the uncharitable take is the
indignity that the cast of this show were

sidelined to be holodeck simulations of
themselves being toyed with by Riker.

There's an especially cringey moment
where Riker, having gotten an insightful

nugget from T'Pol in the galley, freezes
the simulation and says to frozen

T'Pol, thank you, and kisses her on
the cheek before exiting the holodeck.

And that moment of this person you don't
know personally, this is a historical

figure, she just happens to be a pretty
lady, so I'm gonna freeze her and kiss her

on the cheek to thank her for her help.

It's, ew.

I think it maybe barely worked at the
time, but with each passing year, that age

Rob: It.

Yeah.

Yeah.

it's like a very, it's like one of uh,
Picard's wines from Chateau Picard.

Kevin: I happened to show this
episode to a friend of mine who

had seen none of Enterprise.

To your point of you, you need to have
seen a lot of Next Generation to fully

appreciate All Good Things, my friend
who had seen none of Enterprise, just

asked me offhand, like, how did that end?

Like where did it leave Star
Trek, at the end of that run?

I was like, let's watch it.

You, you probably don't
need to have seen anything.

That's the criticism
that this episode gets.

And we watched that standalone and at
the end of it, he said, that was great.

That felt like a fitting tribute to the
Star Trek I know, Next Generation and

Deep Space Nine, and I don't know why
anyone has any complaints about that.

Rob: Yeah, I have not
seen it, to be honest.

I've read about it and I know all about
it and the furore that it creates.

And it's never a good thing when
you can come in and just watch the

ending and go, that goes well for
the shows that I watched, but I

haven't watched any of this at all.

Kevin: It really is more of an episode
of Next Generation than Enterprise.

You imagine, you get canceled, but
you get told, you get to finish the

season and write yourself a finale
that will be a love letter to the fans.

You get given a budget for that, surely.

And the budget on this was entirely
spent on the Next Generation stuff.

Here in Picard, they
created the bridge set.

And it was a it was a masterpiece
and everyone is loving it.

Here in the Enterprise series finale,
they created everything except the bridge.

We got the holodeck, we got
Ten Forward, fully recreated.

We got a corridor of the Enterprise,
tracking shot to a interior of a turbo

lift, which I'll admit was very carpety.

They did the walls in
carpet instead of metal.

So it stands out a bit,
certainly in, in high def.

We got Troi's quarters and we got
the Observation Lounge with the big

conference table fully recreated.

They recreated all of those sets just
to have Troi and Riker sit in them

and have conversations about whether
Riker's latest visit to the Holodeck

had brought him closer to deciding
whether to disobey orders or not.

Rob: My gosh.

Kevin: There's even a cameo on
the comm, of Commander Data.

Data calls Troi to check in, and she
says, can I give you a rain check, Data?

And he goes you can check me for
rain if you wish, counselor, but

I think you'll find that I have no
water in my, and she cuts him off and

it is beautiful, Uh, just a little
voice cameo from Brent Spiner there.

So lots of stuff for the TNG fans,
but the story for the Enterprise crew

is surprisingly thin and half formed.

They go to rescue Shran, jeffrey
Combs's Andorian character,

they go to rescue his daughter.

Shran last seen as an, as a recurring
character in the series is revealed, six

years later, to have to have died, but
it turns out to have faked his own death.

And these bad dudes have kidnapped his
daughter to bring him out of hiding.

And they want a gem and he's gonna give
them a fake gem to get his daughter back.

They fake them out.

They get back on board the
Enterprise and then the bad dudes,

their ship is surprisingly fast.

They catch up to the Enterprise,
kill Tucker who sacrifices

himself for the rest of the ship.

The end.

They fly home, they mourn Tucker,
they fly home and they attend

the founding of the Federation.

It really does not hold together.

It's half one thing, half another.

It's this weird caper with Shran
that they never quite explain what

the stakes were, why the bad dudes
caught up with them, or what they

even wanted with Shran to begin with.

And the founding of the Federation stuff
feels it feels like they're going through

the motions and the focus is really on
Riker and Troi standing on the balcony

going, isn't it cool that we are getting
to watch the founding of the Federation?

Rob: So there we go.

We've gone through the
highs and the lows of

Kevin: The highs and the lows.

I think what we've learned here is that
Star Trek was overdue for a series finale

that really stuck the landing, and felt
like it left us on a satisfying note.

So I'm so glad Picard got us and
showed us what that can feel like

Rob: And especially because we didn't
talk about the movies, but there

was such a bitter taste left with
Nemesis that tried to do in some

ways what Deep Space Nine did with
their finale, but didn't really work.

So to have this one, which so
many fans have said, this is

the ending that we all wanted.

Kevin: The problem with nemesis
A the actual story itself, not

that great, but the bittersweet
ending also felt non-committal.

The thing Deep Space Nine did is those
costs felt irreversible, whereas even as

B4 sat in Picard's ready room starting
to sing Blue Skies, you felt even

before they had finished the movie,
that they were already starting to

reverse the cost that had been paid.

And that's the sour
taste that leaves in my

Rob: But yes, we definitely got
something that we could relish,

enjoy, and really celebrate with
the end of Picard season three.

Kevin: Yes.

It's a, it's an ending for a little
while now, we don't have we don't

have any more Star Trek to watch

Rob: We're not up until Strange
New Worlds season two starts.

Kevin: You've got some Discovery homework
to do that you might want to get a

start on.

I'm just saying.

Rob: Yeah, I'll watch season four.

Kevin: at any point you
feel like a debrief, I'll be

Rob: Oh look, I.

We will, we will definitely need to
debrief back on the Subspace Radio

transmissions about our thoughts

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Discovery.

Kevin: But otherwise, I'll see you in
about six, six weeks in mid-June for the

premiere of Strange New Worlds season
two which, which is looking wacky.

I'm a little worried
by how wacky it looks.

Rob: for its own good?

Kevin: Yeah.

If there's other star Trek around
that's grounded, like Picard was, great.

But when we've got Lower Decks and
Strange New Worlds carrying the torch

Rob: doing a crossover.

Kevin: Discovery's going off the
air, it's a little bit too wacky.

Star Trek needs the grounded stories in
order for the comedy to seem special.

When it's all comedy it
starts to lose the plot a bit.

So I hope we'll find some dramatic
Star Trek in the mix in Strange

Rob: Yeah.

Season one got that balance
quite well with what I remember.

So maybe they're just pushing
the wackiness to draw people in.

But

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: and hopeful.

Kevin: Until then, I'll see
you around the galaxy, Rob.

Rob: you around.