Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

There is Star Trek out in the
world, new Star Trek, and as always,

Kevin and I are here to talk about
it and then go into the deeper

details connected with said episode.

Kevin Yank is here.

Kevin: Hello.

Rob: When we say here he is actually
on the other side of the planet, but

with modern technology, we can talk to
each other and talk about Star Trek.

Kevin: I am visiting family in my native
Canada, and it means I'm that much closer

to the epicenter of modern Star Trek, Rob.

Rob: You can go and stop
an explosion on a bridge.

Kevin: That's right.

I'm within driving distance
of Toronto as we speak.

Rob: You can go see Khan in his
playroom slash experimental lab.

Kevin: Indeed.

But we're not here to talk
about time travel to Canada.

Rob: No, we are here to
talk about memory loss.

In particular, the focus on episode
four, season two of Strange New

Worlds Amongst the Lotus Eaters.

And let's just get straight into it.

Throw ourselves right in there.

What did you think of this episode, Kev?

Kevin: I enjoyed it a great
deal in part from nostalgia.

I knew going in from the previews that
this would be a revisitation of The Cage.

The once again, the very original
pilot for the original series with

Christopher Pike, that opening section
of that first episode, he is recovering

from the mission to the planet
that they return to here this week.

He's beating himself up for the loss
of his uh, yeoman who we discovered

this week is actually alive.

but yeah, that, that part of
the nostalgia was built in.

But what was a pleasant surprise for
me this week was just how great an

episode and I, I put that in bold type
there, an episode of Star Trek this is.

This felt to me like a tight package
right out of the sixties where our

favorite people go on an adventure
together, beginning, middle, end.

They are slightly changed by the
experience, but it is self-contained

and satisfying, and, twists and turns
and we get to see people in new lights,

but that compact nature of the story
that we got here felt so satisfying in

a wistful, nostalgia-tinged way to me.

How about you?

Rob: Yeah spot on.

I absolutely adored it.

That's, it's where Strange New Worlds
really knocked it outta the park last

season and really established itself.

It had that air of classic Star Trek
with those elements that you would

find in the original series, but laced
in with this modern storytelling way.

And yeah, like you said, it had that
classic feel that, not only was it the

Easter egg tie in with the original pilot.

The legacy of Starfleet.

What happens, you know,
that prime directive stuff.

What happens when, we leave
ourselves a bit of our technology

or a bit of ourselves even behind.

And some, the really human connection
or the emotional connection of

these sci-fi ideas of memory loss
because of radiation and how does

that affect the people as opposed
to just the scientific theory of it.

So ranging from trying to define your
humanity, the good in you and being

driven by that, and what feels right
and what feels wrong, right up to

the, tragic stuff like a man having
a sense of loss, but not wanting to

confront what he has lost in his memory.

Some really powerful things in there, and
beautifully played by everyone involved.

Guest stars knocked it out of the park
and it was great to have Anson Mount front

and center for the first time this season.

Kevin: Indeed.

Yeah, this was a captain takes
the lead even when he can't

remember he's the captain episode,
which yeah, it was great to see.

And of course we got maybe our first
occasion of Ortegas in the spotlight.

And we were, we've, we were promised that
with this clip that was played at some

Star Trek Day, about six months ago, that
opening scene where Ortegas has got the

hat and she's like, I've got the hat.

I'm ready.

I'm going on the away mission.

This hat is awesome.

And then unfortunately
she has to stay behind.

And like we, we were given that kind
of as a taste of yes, at the end of

season one, we realize we've told a
story focusing on almost every one

of our bridge crew except Ortegas.

Here's a taste of what we're gonna
get of Ortegas in season two.

And we definitely got to put her in the
spotlight, admittedly, in the B plot here.

But nevertheless, it was up to her
to save the day and she did it.

Rob: Definitely, yeah.

She wasn't the A plot focus, but
there was that B plot attention.

And what I really liked about it is that
it wasn't played for comedic effect.

It was a case of this memory loss is a
violation, is a terrifying experience.

It wasn't, this is the
quirky, fun episode.

It was a very dark, serious tone for the
whole thing and trying to reestablish

who you are, and the dangers of that.

Especially when you've got your
memory being lost, when you

are controlling a Starship.

Kevin: Yeah, the sense that
they were ill-equipped for it.

Like Spock very rationally
walking around, handing out PADDs,

going, here's your biography.

You're gonna forget who
you are, but this'll help.

Chapel saying, this is just a
bandaid, it's not gonna work.

And sure enough, Spock loses his memory
and apparently loses his ability to

read English or Federation Standard
or whatever that was on that PADD.

So he can't even read the
thing that he made for himself.

That sense of they tried to prepare and
nevertheless it went terribly wrong.

That kind of deepened that unease, that
feeling of just like they're sliding

down the slope here outta control.

The conversation Ortegas
had with the computer was.

There was a bit of comic relief there
at times, but it never broke the mood

that, that when she came outta the
turbo lift and there's like people

wandering like zombies in the corridors
and, oh, such a nice mix of tones.

Like she asks for her.

She eventually manages to ask where she
belongs and it leads her to her quarters

with the lights down the hallway.

That's something we haven't seen
explicitly since early Next Generation,

when Riker is asking how to find his
way to the bridge and that you get

the strip lighting down the hall just
for one person, as zombie Starfleet

members bump up against the bulkheads.

It was so like light and playful, yet
disturbing and scary all in the one scene.

It was really satisfying.

Rob: Definitely.

Yeah.

I saw it wasn't really, play for
comic effect, but there was that joy

in her trying to remember who she
was and with the conversation with

only limited parameters for how the
computer can talk back to find that way.

Getting to that mantra.

I fly the ship.

I fly the ship.

That

Kevin: Fly the ship.

Yeah.

Rob: That beautiful mantra
that is Ortegas's destiny.

And beautiful stuff at the end when,
Pike has to confront Zach, who he

left behind, who he had no idea he
left behind, but the damage is caused

and saying, we are taking you back.

Kevin: That's one of those
flavors that really took me

back the, I'm a random ensign.

I got left behind.

They made me their king.

Don't think about it too deeply.

Look they made me their king.

I'm very happy here in my cold castle with
nothing but phaser rifles to keep me warm.

That return to planet and a human
was made king by the natives, quote

unquote, a very sixties trope, I'll say.

It felt right out of the original series.

Yeah.

Rob: And of course I, I was
really relieved at the end

when the traveling companion
actually did get his memory back.

Kevin: Yeah.

Despite not wanting it.

Rob: Really wonderful example of
what this show can do and just why

it is becoming the flagship and gold
standard for Star Trek at the moment.

Kevin: In some ways there is no more
disposable kind of story within Star

Trek, and yet watching it played to
the nines here with the full production

values of modern Star Trek brought
to bear, they spared no expense in

telling this nevertheless small story.

And that is very satisfying to me.

Rob: Very much so.

Kevin: What did you think of the framing
device of Captain Batel and Captain

Pike breaking up getting back together,
all of that stuff, the medallion.

How did that go over for you?

Rob: Yeah, it was a very that
was one of the modern elements.

If we go back to the classic series, Kirk
was very much, oh, has a, has a woman at

every port and every, every attractive
woman who shows up has a past with Kirk.

But to see this very balanced relationship
about, two professional people working

hard, moving up in their industry and
in their line of work and attracted to

each other and wanting to spend time
together, but both realizing both their

careers and their lives are important
and the foibles that we each fall into

of how we protect ourselves by running
away instead of facing those challenges.

Kevin: I found it a little distracting
that she appears to be both a career

starship captain, and also we learned
earlier this season, apparently a

JAG lawyer of some kind who's like

Rob: Lots of levels.

Kevin: I am unclear exactly what
her job is, or her career is.

She could be a starship
captain who moonlights as a

Starfleet lawyer or something.

But yeah, that, that was just
a little confusing to me.

One too many jobs for this person.

Rob: Yeah, maybe I'll get the
impression She was trying to

move up and so her training was,
this was her way of trying to.

Move up within the Federation and because
she stood by the right side, she's

been curtailed by the jerky Vulcan.

But yeah, it wasn't really clarified.

She can be whatever she needs to
be, whichever plot convenience.

Kevin: That's something that
happens with Star Trek now and then.

Like these people are such
experts, you get the sense

they're almost interchangeable.

Like you get the sense that Spock could
step over to any one of those bridge

stations, sit down and be an expert.

And you get the sense about almost
all of these characters that, that

they know how everything works
because they are so ultra proficient

and ultra professional and capable.

And it it sometimes blurs things or
makes the world feel a little less

large and a little less believable.

I prefer the world when it
feels like, there are things

that even Spock doesn't know.

There are things that even Scotty
couldn't fix because you need a McCoy

because this is a medicine thing.

But every once in a while, especially
like those science officers and

occasionally starship captains,
they become jacks of all trade who

are actually masters of everything.

Rob: Yeah.

I did particularly, there was a little bit
of humor in the, a bit of dark humor as

well with the guide always saying well,
you know, um, uh, La'an's gonna be dead.

Gonna be, is gonna be dying soon.

Just Will you please
stop saying I'm dying?

But for me it was really good to, not
only was it the first episode with Pike

front and center, he had a lot to do.

I loved the gift that he was given,
really beautiful gift by Batel, and that

was something that kept him in focus.

That's a, it's a, that's an old narrative
trick that you do, but it played out well.

And because it is so sincere about its
ties to classic 1960s style Star Trek

and 1960s fifties sci-fi storytelling.

To have him front and center and be
his, have his own emotional journey,

but also, be a heroic hero and captain,
but still have his moral code of not,

taking lives or anything like that.

Was a great episode to really show
Anson Mount's skill as a performer

and as the lead of this series.

Kevin: Indeed.

So the thing we picked out of this
episode was memory loss and our main

characters struggling with amnesia.

Natural, artificial,
whatever might be the cause.

And I've picked out a Next Gen episode.

What have you got?

Rob: I've got I've gone to my first
run-in with this experience, and

that's from the original series movies.

Kevin: Ooh, let's start uh,
let's start with yours then.

Rob: Let's look at which was dealt
with over at least well over a

three film trilogy arc, but also
especially in Star Trek IV, the

memory loss of Spock in the movies.

Kevin: Of course.

Of course.

It didn't even occur to me.

Yeah, so ambiguous.

What does he remember?

When?

Rob: Exactly.

It's this big case of, like for me,
cuz I hadn't seen Star Trek II or

III before I'd seen Star Trek IV,
so I had to go back and watch that.

But I could still feel that sense of
longing from Kirk and McCoy and the crew,

they just want their old Spock back and

Kevin: And the audience
wants their old Spock back.

Every slight taste of old
Spock you get is so delicious.

it's almost the actor going I'm
going to give you so little and

you're gonna be so grateful for
every little bit that I give you.

It is such a nice way to play a
character after so long is I'm gonna

strip him back to such a minimal form
and and have the audience leaning

in to every word I say as a result.

Rob: It's the absolute skill and talent
and just charisma of Leonard Nimoy.

That's his cold, calculating
version of Spock.

And it's still so engaging,
so layered as a performance.

It's not just clearly a case of
I'm a Vulcan, so I'm a robot.

But you can feel that cool detachment
still, but it's not from anything

other than just finding out who he is.

That opening scene of him and his
mother with the original actress coming

back, I believe, to play his mum again
was just fantastic to see, just the

simple question, How do you feel?

And the question is irrelevant.

Kevin: How do you feel?

How do you feel?

I love that

Rob: Um, it's a, great scene.

Kevin: It's a compact way to establish
for people like yourself who hadn't seen

the previous movies, what's going on
with Spock while telling us some story.

Yeah.

I love the world building of those, laws
of the thermodynamics and things like

that, that they're quizzing with him with.

And he knows all the facts, but he's
stymied by a question, How do you feel?

And that's a it's it's
something that I'm wondering.

I.

I wondered at the time, and I wonder even
today, whether it was deliberate by the

storytellers here or by Leonard Nimoy, is
this idea that Spock came back from the

dead, but he came back Vulcan first, like
his rational fact-based library computer

version of himself came back first
and the personality came back second.

Rob: It's a Vulcan tradition.

He passed on his self his katra to McCoy
and they had to go through the process

on Vulcan, all that type of stuff.

So of course, the first part of him
brought forward we would be that part

of him connected to all those traditions
and rituals and this, genetic process.

And it's done in a sort of like,
offhand kind of way because of the tone

of Star Trek IV, but there's a real
deep meaning behind the frustration

of Kirk wanting his friend back and
there going, you used to call me Jim.

Don't call, Jim, remember Jim?

All right, let's just move on with it.

So for me, watching it for the first
time and giving enough backstory

and information it hit really hard
there going, yeah, I want this

character back the way he was.

I wanna see, I, I've got an idea how he
was, but now I wanna see it for real.

And you do get that at the end of the
whole movie with his run in with his dad.

And when he finally pays off
that, that question that was

asked at the start of the movie.

It's a masterful performance.

It's a masterful structure of storytelling
and it's, yeah, it's beautifully done.

And for me, it really engrossed me
and engaged me in how we deal with

someone we know losing who they are.

Kevin: It's an interesting echo
of an original series episode that

wasn't on my list, but it should
have been that you've reminded me of.

And it's The Changeling, and that's
the episode where Uhura has her

mind, wiped by the probe named Nomad.

So this is an Earth probe.

It's very much, this is the same story
as Star Trek, The Motion Picture,

but it was told in the TV series.

And it's this little probe that they beam
on board and it turns out to have been

an Earth probe that got damaged and then
repaired by an artificial intelligence.

And it is now coming back to Earth
thinking its job is to sterilize

all of the carbon units to use
The Motion Picture language.

But in in the Changeling, which is season
two, episode eight of the original series,

this probe comes on board and it hovers
around the ship and they give it a tour.

And when it meets Uhura, it
probes her mind and wipes it,

and she loses all her memories.

And at the end of the episode,
she's laid up in sick bay, just

reading on the library computer.

And they say like she's at a,
she's at a grade 10 reading level.

We'll have her up to college
level in a couple of weeks.

And there's this sense that Uhura needs
to rediscover herself from scratch.

There is no katra to re-embed.

Has completely lost her memories and
in true sixties TV style, she's back to

her normal self by the following week.

And it is never commented again
that Uhura completely lost her

memories and personality and had
to rebuild it by reading, studying

the library computer that is the,
probably the biggest reset button

we've ever seen in Star Trek history.

Rob: So it wasn't the probe
giving it back at the end.

It was just a case of all

Kevin: No, no, she, she
lost, she lost her memory.

Sorry.

No backups.

We just gotta, she's gonna have to read.

She remembers like Swahili, like they,
she has some super childhood skills left,

so she speaks in Swahili and they, they
have to use that as their only starting

point to teach her herself again.

Rob: That's analog rebooting.

That's really analog rebooting.

None of this 20, 25th century technology
coming in or anything like that.

Holy smokes.

Kevin: Forget about Pike and his
date with destiny in the chair.

Uhura is sitting on that bridge and
has no idea that in just a few years

time, she's gonna completely lose
her memory and never get it back.

Rob: But she'll learn everything
as if she's brand spanking

new in a couple of weeks?

Yeah.

So what's your actual episode that
you wanted to focus on about the

Kevin: Uh, yeah.

So I picked a favorite episode of The
Next Generation called Conundrum, and

this is TNG season five, episode 14.

Season five of Next Gen, come on.

Star Trek in the nineties
did not get better than this.

This is like a high point.

Some people like season six better than
season five, but I think it's a toss up.

Rob: They're the two top ones.

Kevin: This is when the characters were
so well formed that they would play

an episode like this one in order to
play with the idea of what would they

do if they didn't know who they were.

And that was a delightful treat
for an audience who had gotten

to know these characters so well.

At the start of Conundrum, the
Enterprise is just, on a typical

exploration mission, they get intercepted
by a ship they don't recognize.

The ship scans them, and it's like that
green beam that passes over everyone on

the bridge and they all just go blank.

I would say you could watch this episode
just for the cold open and watch the

acting in that scene when they have
all lost their memories and they're all

looking around trying to reckon with this
fact that they can't remember who they

are, what they're doing there, who the
people around them are, what this place

is, they are, and it is, the director must
have done a masterful job here because

they all play it the same way of the
like social face of something's wrong

with me, but I don't know if it's safe
to admit that something's wrong with me.

So I'm just gonna like, look around
and pretend everything's fine until

they all realize they're looking around
and pretending that everything's fine.

Riker's the first one who admits like,
I don't know who any of you people are.

And of course, Picard, Patrick
Stewart does the best with this.

And he, his voice completely changes tone.

He's suddenly very very vulnerable.

And he I can't reproduce it here for you.

You'll have to watch the

Rob: Damn it.

You are leading up to it.

Listeners, you, if you saw Kevin Yank's
face, he's there, he's building up.

I saw him literally building up
going, I'm gonna give it a try.

I'm gonna try and do Patrick
Stewart in Conundrum.

And then you

Kevin: Yeah, no, it is beautiful.

It is a quiet, understated performance
from everyone on that bridge.

And then just as you see everyone
the camera turns, and then there

is a character also in, in a
commander's uniform standing on

the bridge that in hindsight, we
should recognize him as a stranger.

And this is my biggest memory of this
episode at the time is back in the

nineties when we were watching Next
Generation pre-Internet, pre streaming.

The first time you watched this episode,
you were being exposed to new doses of

Next Generation every week or a few,
and there were long hiatuses over the

summer for reruns, and so the look
around the bridge at everyone and the

fact there is one person there standing
right next to Picard who we'd never

seen before, back then you wrote it off.

Now in hindsight, you watch
it and you go, he's evil.

He doesn't belong there.

That's not someone I recognize.

And as the story goes on, he's introduced
to us as commander McDuff who is the

Executive Officer, a position we've
never heard before on this show.

And Riker is subtly
demoted to second officer.

And I'm like, my teenage mind at the
time, I'm like, hang on second officer?

Wasn't Riker first officer?

Well, he's second in command.

Maybe that's what second officer is.

So I watching through this, I
was second guessing my own memory

of, does this person belong?

Is it important that I don't
recognize him or is he just

another bridge crew of the week?

Maybe he's been there a few times
and I, I don't remember him.

But sure enough, the characters who don't
remember who they are, they consult the

library computer and they find their
mission is to maintain radio silence

and go and attack the command center
of the Lisians, which is this race

that they are supposedly at war with.

And as they attempt to follow those
mission orders, they find the Lisians are

not equipped to put up any kind of fight.

The first ship that they encounter, they,
they destroy with a single phaser shot.

Picard is getting more
and more like suspicious.

How could this be the great threat that
we have been sent on to, to destroy when

they, they are defenseless against us?

And of course the entire plot is
that McDuff is an alien in disguise.

They have used this mind wiper in order
to use the weapon of mass destruction that

is the Enterprise D in order to settle
their war for themselves by planting

this fake mission in the computer.

But yeah watching our characters
puzzle that out and ultimately, still

not knowing who they are, still not
sure they're doing the right thing,

decide not to attack those defenseless
people in the Command Center.

It is uh, lovely, similarly
to Pike this week, it's lovely

watching our characters become
themselves despite a lack of memory.

Rob: Yeah, it's something that I
really love about the movie Eternal

Sunshine of The Spotless Mind.

It's one of my favorite films, and
it's incredible how much conversation

that film still generates after
nearly 20 years of its being released.

It's a great film about losing your
memory and finding out who you are

again, but how that movie ends with,
how it what, how people decide it.

Some people see it as an incredibly
negative, sad, depressing ending.

I see it as a very positive ending and it
connects to that whole thing of Star Trek

of you find who you really are despite
whatever technological or alien force

takes your memory away, you will find you.

I find that a really hopeful, positive
thing that it was definitely brought in

the last, this Strange New Worlds episode
and I, I can tell that in Conundrum.

Kevin: That last scene where Pike,
comes to the brink of killing his

ensign with the phaser rifle, and
then pulls back as his memory's

restored, it is deliciously ambiguous.

Like, would he have killed him?

What does that say about Pike?

Pike goes on to say, no, we
are ourselves regardless.

So what is he revealing
about him himself there?

It's beautiful, like not quite to the
artistic achievement of Eternal Sunshine,

but it's in the same realm of who are we
really when our memories are removed from

Rob: Was Pike gonna turn into that Pike,
who was gonna have Orion slave girls?

Kevin: Yes,

Rob: So yeah, Conundrum would be a
great episode for me to go and watch.

It's from a great era.

Now I've gotta get into that.

I've been focusing in on
Enterprise so much recently,

I've gotta get into Next Gen.

Kevin: The other one, like the runner
up that was on my list was Clues,

which is another Next Gen episode.

That one we may talk
about at some other time.

But it's it's a much more of
a puzzley sort of episode.

This is season four, episode 14.

Everyone wakes up.

And can't remember what happened for the
past couple of days starts to go about

their day and they start to discover
things about the time that they lost.

And Data is revealed to be
working against their efforts

to piece together what happened.

And it turns out they deliberately
wiped their own memories in order to

resolve a situation, shall we say.

Rob: We talked about this in the
early days of the podcast, all

the way back in the heady days
of 2022, remember that, Kevin?

About how I think Strange New Worlds
has just set up a checklist of all

those sci-fi gimmick episodes that
said we need to do a body swap.

We need to do we need to do, yeah,
we need to do memory loss, and they,

we need to do a time travel one.

We need to do, and they've literally
gone through that checklist and they've

got that combination of classic and
modern and why it's working so well.

Kevin: In our next episode,
we seem to have another Spock

Hijinks episode to talk about.

So they're not afraid to go
back to the well as well when

they've got something that works.

Rob: When they've got the talent
that they have in this show.

It's, this is what I love about regular
sci-fi as well, when you realize you've

got really talented actors, the show
runners go, let's put these really

talented people through their paces.

They did it with Next Gen, they
did it with Deep Space Nine.

They did it with the
cast of Voyager as well.

Really talented actors
with stage experience with

multiple years of experience.

Just put 'em through the ringer and
bring out that, experience and quality.

So I'm looking forward to
having a chat with you about our

episode Charades for next week.

Kevin: Yeah, see you then, Rob.

Rob: See you then.