Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin.

Rob: And me, Rob.

Did you miss us?

We missed you.

Kevin: Did you miss us?

Good news is, everyone survived.

We're all still on this planet.

Rob: We haven't lost anybody else
from, uh, Star Trek legacy, so um

it's been a fortunate couple of weeks.

Kevin: Uhhuh.

And, uh, the good news is we have
new Star Trek in our lives again.

So we will be coming to you weekly for
the next little while as Lower Decks

season three drip-feeds into our eyeballs.

Rob: And I've been able to finally
catch up on this whole Lower Decks

thing and be up to date with everything.

Cuz I was sadly behind the eight ball.

I missed the entire first and second
season, so I had to do a massive catch

up over the last couple of weeks.

Kevin: You have what I like
to call beginner's mindset.

You can still remember what
it was like, not to know what

was going on with Lower Decks.

So tell me, having made that
transition very quickly over the

past couple of weeks, how did it
feel going from there to here?

How are you feeling about the
show now, going into season three?

Rob: Yeah, look, I really love
it, but it took a while to get

into the right head space for me.

Um, first things first, Beckett
just annoyed the hell out of me.

There was, like… For me in those
first couple of episodes, there was

nothing redeeming about her whatsoever.

And there was no real comeuppance
for what she was doing.

She was sort of like cocky
and knew everything, but

nothing really stuck to her.

There was, um, the episode, of course,
when the captain, her mum, promoted her.

So that's where we got to see a little
bit of that frustration in Beckett.

Kevin: Yes.

Her rolling off the bed and groaning
because she was invited to the

poker game is a highlight for me.

Rob: Yes.

But through the course of the
series, learning where she comes

from and actually showing, all
the range of her as a character…

Kevin: Yeah, I had that.

I think a lot of people had that
experience, perhaps people of

the Bradward Boimler persuasion.

Like I think you and I are naturally,
uh, uh, inclined to relate to him.

And Beckett Mariner is designed to
annoy Brad Boimlers of the world.

Rob: Yes.

And there's no, you know, sugar coating
the fact that we are, uh, very Boimler,

very, very, Boimler the both of us.

But yeah, I love the setup of it.

I love the Cerritos, I love
the fact that it's not just,

we're seeing the lower decks.

We're seeing the lower
decks of a lower class.

Kevin: This is the third tier ship in the…

Rob: Yeah, the California class, which
I really like, has become a thing.

And so, it's grown on me in those
first couple of episodes, the

references are thrown in right
near the end, a bit ham-fisted,

but they've found this beautiful
way of integrating it all in there.

And the cameos have just been outstanding.

I mean, you know, uh, Jonathan Frakes
is, is, is absolute legend in getting,

um, Tom Paris back was also a, a
particularly delightful little moment.

So just waiting for
Harry Kim to come back,

Kevin: Well, there is bound to be a
clarinet recital on, the Cerritos at

some point where he will be needed.

Rob: There, there has
to be, there has to be.

So yeah, it's got to that point where like
with, Orville which I really like as well,

and I haven't seen the recent series of
that, it's started pushing the comedy and

the sci-fi was there in the background,
but now it's really incorporated.

It's become a really confident Star Trek
show that hasn't lost it's sassy sense

of humor, and that ability to show the
graphic violence of animation, has now

integrated itself really beautifully.

They've got a really nice balance
between those type of things, where

it was still finding its feet a
little bit for most of season one.

Kevin: Yeah, much less of a sudden
clunk when it switches between

earnest Star Trek and comedy cartoon.

And now it, it does feel like those
things are part of a uniform, tone.

Rob: Yeah.

And I found it really interesting
and it was a really good work with

character, like when Boimler finally
gets his dream of working on a real,

Hollywood-type Starship with the Titan.

And he just, it's just too much.

It's too much for him.

Like, just seeing how he
just wants to explore stuff.

He just wants to be a scientist
or work on engineering stuff, as

opposed to being like in battles
and warfare and sacrificing himself.

I found that really clever and a
really clever way of just there

going, yeah, I want all this type
of stuff but I don't wanna be like

in the movie side of Star Trek.

Kevin: I'm interested to talk more about
the level of, nostalgia and reference

that is built into this show, but
I think that's gonna come up in our

discussion of season three, episode one.

So maybe let us turn our attention
to "Grounded", the season premiere

of Lower Decks season three.

Rob: Beautiful segue.

Kevin: This episode picks up from
the cliffhanger of season two, where

the captain, Mariner's mum is carried
away in shackles, for the supposed

destruction of Packled Planet.

And during this episode, Mariner
takes matters into her own hands

to try to rescue her mother, or
at least prove her innocence.

But meanwhile, all along, Starfleet is
doing the right thing and exonerating her.

And the episode ends with a little,
you should have trusted the system,

which is something, honestly, I've
never seen happen before in Star Trek.

Like, that should be
what star Trek is, right?

But it takes Lower Decks to show us that
sometimes it's not a crooked system.

Sometimes the Admiral isn't corrupt.

Sometimes the system works.

Rob: Exactly.

And it was that, perfect example of
what Lower Decks was set out to be.

You've got the characters who have
no power and no control who aren't

even invited to the big kids table,
having to come up with this weird,

wacky, bizarre plot to free one of
these characters on the higher level.

And, and then that's all
happening in the background.

It's very much like the, uh, "The Zeppo"
episode of Buffy The Vampire Slayer season

three, where we all focus on Xander, where
the end of the world is happening in the

side shots or, you know, very briefly
while he's doing this tiny mission,

it very much came across like that.

Kevin: I went into this episode
expecting, as we talked about last time,

a retread or revisit or reminiscence on
Star Trek III in the great Enterprise

theft at the start of that movie.

And we did get a bit of that,
but completely unexpectedly, the

real movie being referenced here
was Star Trek: First Contact.

Rob: …and they got all the references.

Not only—

Kevin: They have none left!

They have burned that
entire movie for parts.

Rob: James Cromwell has
appeared and Steppenwolf…

Kevin: Uhhuh.

Rob: …just go, that's it: tick, tick.

And it doesn't feel tacked on at all.

It was a celebration, which I really love.

Kevin: Yeah, I have learned to go into
a Lower Decks episode kind of half

squinting, waiting for the reference.

And I feel like they almost,
bait and switched us on this.

When they decided they were going to
the transporter facility to hijack

the transporter and beam onboard the
Cerritos, they went in and they said,

now this place is run by a veteran of
Starfleet security, so watch your back.

And I'm like, oh, who is it gonna be?

I I'm trying to think.

Who, who would that be?

A security person who is
now a transporter chief?

I don't know.

I'm wracking my mental Rolodex…

Rob: You're going Good Will Hunting
type figuring out the equation.

Kevin: Is it O'Brien cuz
he runs transporters?

But no, he wasn't in security.

Who ran security that was…
and it's a never-before-seen

character, transporter chief Denny.

Carlton Dennis.

And I'm going, who are you Denny?

I feel like I'm meant to
recognize you, but I don't.

Rob: I expected a cameo and
I did not get it, Denny.

How dare you?

How the very well dare you be original?

So you better pull out Oscar
nominated actors to be this cameo.

Otherwise I'm oh, hello, James Cromwell.

Kevin: Yes, the, uh, you should
have seen it coming cuz they

dangled Bozeman, Montana there.

Um, and they get to beam over and
suddenly they are in First Contact

land, with the big, gold statue of
James Cromwell's Zefram Cochrane.

They've got balloons in the shapes
of starships including a Defiant

balloon, which is a nice, deep
cut from the start of that movie.

Rob: Always love a good Defiant reference.

Kevin: And they've got the
Phoenix taking off in the middle.

Offscreen, they all buy
James Cromwell hats.

So they're all wearing Zefram Cochrane
hats for the second half of this episode,

Rob: And it was great to
go to First Contact world.

Even in the future, in the utopian
future of Star Trek, they have,

tacky, cheap… It's not even like
a big Disney World type thing.

It's like this dodgy, thrown
together place going, no, this is

really interesting and exciting,
and it's like a fun place.

And you go, nohohoho.

There's no rollercoaster
so what's the point?

Kevin: Moving gently along through
the flight of the Phoenix and boarding

the Cerritos, what's the second
half of this episode, like for you?

Rob: It's sort of like more
harkened back to earlier episodes.

It's quite surprising for me.

I was expecting that momentum to carry on
from the previous season of all this big

intergalactic, conflict and Packled and
Klingon conspiracies and all that type of…

Kevin: Well, the surprise is that is all
going on; it's just going on offscreen.

Rob: They just went back to
go, remember what the show is?

It's called Lower Decks.

Kevin: I loved when they get on the ship
and they finally get, Boimler's logs

out of his bunk and they play them back.

And it's him, re-recording the logs
of the captain, but then with these,

so cringy comments of, "Oh, got caught
sniffing the captain's chair again."

"I got awful gas and I
just wish I could fart!"

All of that.

And the look on his face as he's
hearing himself, going "Yep.

That's right."

Just so…

Rob: Yes.

Yeah-yeah-yeah.

Kevin: I think that blend of the
nostalgia of being overwhelmed with

references, and then taking a step
back and going, but we have characters

that you care about here too.

And characters being themselves
is also really enjoyable to watch.

And it's almost like as soon as you get
bored of one, they switch to the other.

Rob: Yeah.

And that's what you want
in a Star Trek show.

It really is an ensemble cast
that you fall in love with.

They've really strengthened that bond
between those four lead characters,

and they've taken that time.

Even though they're all nerdy wannabees
in their own different way, even

Beckett is, no matter how much she
protests too much, there is that

hidden Starfleet nerd deep down.

Kevin: And, as we get to see at the end
of this episode, the loving daughter as

well, who is just scared for her mum.

When she finally cannot make the ship move
anymore, and she collapses down at the con

and cries, I'm like, wow, yes, this is two
seasons of me learning what this character

is about and learning to understand
her as a person coming to pay off.

Rob: Definitely.

Mind you, I'm still annoyed by the dad's
a bit too blase for my, for my liking.

Eh, it's cool.

Everything will work out.

I'm fine.

I'm an Admiral.

Kevin: I loved that all of the
pot plants in his office all had

little computer screens on pots.

It's like even the pots for their
plants are computerized in Star Trek…

Rob: Love it.

Love it.

Love it.

Kevin: Uh, the thing that this
episode will, I think, be remembered

for is the last beat where we
get to see all of the galactic

machinations that took place offscreen.

We get to see basically an entire Star
Trek action movie, retold to us, with

still-screened artwork, some of it in
a kind of painterly comic book style

of, we had Captain Morgan Bateson, lead
a elite squad into the Romulan Neutral

Zone and Tuvok interrogated the criminal
in order to extract the secrets to

uncover the Packleds' Samaritan Snare,
and the action happened off screen

while we were here in the Lower Decks.

That is for me, the heart of this episode.

And that's what you suggested we
reflect on in our tour through

Star Trek history this week.

Rob: Yeah.

I gave it the description does
what it says on the tin, really.

It's like when you go into each of the
shows of Star Trek, they go in with a

particular modus operandi or a statement
of intention and it's a weird thing.

Sometimes the episodes that we like
the best from each particular series

are the ones that break that routine.

So, what I wanted to celebrate is
the ones that are fundamentally

good, bad, or crippling, what
it is, are actually the routine.

So episodes that are the
routine, what you exactly expect.

Kevin: Yes, when someone pitched
this show, they described

a certain kind of story.

What is the one episode that most is
an example of that story in the series.

And for me, when I went back
looking for them, I was surprised

some of them come early, but some
of them come surprisingly late.

So I'm interested which ones we
picked out of the history books, here.

Did you have anything
in the original series?

Rob: I didn't.

Did you have one from the animated series.

Kevin: I did not, no.

TNG is where I came in first.

Have you got something from TNG?

Rob: I haven't got anything from, TNG.

Kevin: Good.

That sounds like you've got DS9 covered.

Rob: Who would've thought!

Who would've thought Rob
Lloyd has a DS9 episode.

Kevin: I'm gonna start with
Star Trek: The Next Generation.

And I'm, I might be, I might not
be fulfilling the brief, here.

So you tell me at the end whether
you think this is a good example.

To me, what Star Trek: The Next
Generation says on the tin is, you

know Kirk, Spock and Bones, but we're
gonna see how the world of star Trek

has moved on a generation later.

Literally the next generation
of Starfleet, of the galaxy,

what does that look like?

And I went looking for a TNG episode that
felt like it fulfilled that promise fully.

There are a couple of early ones
where they will, they will mine

a piece of Star Trek history.

I'm thinking of The Naked Now, which
replays The Naked Time from TOS.

But that's not what I was going for.

Where I landed was Star Trek:
The Next Generation season

six, episode four, "Relics",

which is the episode in which the
Enterprise D encounters a crashed

ship in which the transporter is
locked in a transport loop and they

activate it, and who materializes in
the transporter, but Montgomery Scott.

Scotty comes back to
life in the 24th century.

And in this episode, Scotty makes himself
a nuisance on the Enterprise D, because

he walks around going this isn't how
I would run a starship or, oh, all you

kids don't know how easy you have it.

it goes from him being celebrated
as a hero, but very quickly becomes

like that nuisance that La forge
really just wants to get him off

his back because he's, he won't stop
pestering him in his engine room.

it plays with that idea that at
a certain point in your life, you

realize the world is no longer for you.

It is for the next generation.

Rob: Aaaaaah!

Kevin: I don't think they could have
done this episode much earlier in

TNG, because it actually subverts
a thing that fans were feeling at

the start of The Next Generation.

Fans very skeptical of this bald
captain and this android, on the

bridge and a Klingon on the bridge.

And just this whole crew, they were like,
don't give me new people in a new ship.

I love Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.

That's Star Trek to me.

Rob: The outcry was just insane.

And they've been showing recently
articles that came out in fan magazines

or just local newspapers and stuff
like that, going Star Trek is James T.

Kirk and Spock.

And the whole reason why they created it
is because they could no longer afford

Leonard Nimoy and William Shatner.

Imagine that.

Imagine there is a time in the world,
Kevin Yank, where you cannot afford

Leonard Nemoy and William Shatner.

Oh, what a wonderful
time that must have been!

Oh!

And everyone saw it, they
went we don't want new people.

We want the ones we love.

Kevin: And now, six years in, the
cast has earned the confidence to say,

what if we brought one of our favorite
characters from the previous generation

on the ship and all our characters that
you've grown to love, find him annoying?

Rob: They have had previous, like first
episode famously had very, very old McCoy

there just for the look there he is.

DeForest Kelley, doing a, the thankless
job of appearing in heavy makeup

and just walking around for a little
bit and then being toddled off.

And of course, you know, Leonard
Nimoy showed up for Unification.

So to get to that point six seasons in
where you go, you know what, we've been

quite reverent towards these characters
and these figures from the past.

And it was either Scotty or Chekov.

Kevin: Yes.

The episode takes a really nice
turn when Scotty, feeling sorry for

himself, goes to the holodeck and
recreates the bridge of his original

Enterprise and has a drink at the
center seat, and then Picard wanders on.

And Picard recognizes the
value of this man, empathizes

with how he must be feeling.

They have a great drink and talk about
the, the ladies in their lives that

are, of course, the ships that fly.

And it is so touching,
and a rare slow beat.

It feels like a full act of this
episode is just Scotty being

Scotty, looking around and going,
what is my place in this century?

And seeing the challenging side of that.

And then with Picard, seeing
the welcome, warm side of that.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: Finally, the last third
of this episode is ultimately,

inevitably, Scotty saving the day.

Rob: Of course.

Kevin: By, flying his crashed ship into
the doors of the Dyson sphere that the

Enterprise is locked inside, and holding
them open so that the Enterprise can

fly through sideways just in the nick of
time, before Scotty's old ship explodes

and to thank him for it, the crew of
the Enterprise give him a shuttle craft

that he can fly off into the sunset.

And that is the last canonical
moment of Montgomery Scott

in the universe of Star Trek.

Rob: That's right.

Yeah.

Kevin: He was seen again on screen two
years later in Star Trek: Generations.

But that is a much
younger, earlier Scotty.

He looks very similar because
he's been trapped in a, a

transporter buffer the whole time.

But yes, we didn't get our send
off until we saw him on the big

screen in Generations, but this
was the character's final beat.

And what a sweet one.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

Very much so.

Very much so.

Yeah, it's— I saw "does what it says on
the tin" more like one of those average

episodes that you kind of forget.

Especially like with Next Gen
it would be, how is this new

generation solving those problems?

So the key line is always – and in many
ways, wrongly – described as Kirk always

fired first, asked questions later.

Kevin: You would go for an episode
that was like the time we solved it

with diplomacy, it was dramatic anyway.

Rob: Exactly.

Kevin: Well show me what you mean.

Take me to your, your first episode.

Rob: Well I am taking you to series
two of Deep Space Nine, episode,

10 of series two, "Sanctuary".

The episode involves just
a run-of-the-mill day.

Kira isn't filling out her
obligations as first officer on

Deep Space Nine, cuz she's dealing
with politicians and arguments and

diplomacy and all this type of stuff.

And she's a freedom fighter;
she's not used to any of that.

And then through the wormhole comes a
refugee ship that's seriously damaged

and in danger, and four refugees are
transported onto Deep Space Nine.

And we can't understand them.

The translator hasn't been able to
figure out their language yet, cuz

they're deep from the gamma quadrant.

And so the whole episode evolves the
politics on Deep Space Nine of these

refugees coming in and disrupting
Quark's bar, how Odo has to deal with

these new people on the ship, but
also the politics of these refugees

needing sanctuary, a place to go.

They've decided that their
holy land, their place where

they need to go is Bajor.

And at this point, Bajor is in the
fits of a, drought and a food shortage.

So it's got all those
elements that you will not…

Kevin: Yeah it has all the elements.

It's got the drudgery of
managing a space station.

The adventure comes to
us through the wormhole.

That I feel has, was the
pitch for Deep Space Nine.

What if, instead of going to the
adventure, the adventure came to us?

Rob: Exactly.

And that wormhole is the, the
thing that ties it all together.

Kevin: And it has Bajor in the mix.

Rob: It has Bajor in the mix.

It has the dramas on the ship,
and how the balance of power is

distributed there with Quark and Odo.

It has Jake and Nog getting
caught up with the young refugees

and a bit of tension there.

We get a new species who are dominated by
women and the men are the lower classes…

Kevin: And they are so alien, we can't
even translate their language at…

Rob: …can't even translate their
language and their hair is…

Kevin: Outrageous!

Rob: Outrageously high.

But my favorite thing is the 1990s future
politics, where she comes in and says,

all our men are second class citizens cuz
they're too emotional and Julian Bashir

is going, your women are in charge.

Kevin: Imagine that.

How alien!

Rob: Yeah.

And Dax has to look and
go, yep, that's right.

That's right.

I'm there going, "You're in the future."

Kevin: Amazing.

Rob: And this refugee who arrives, she has
two men and she sleeps with both of them!

Kevin: Oh, yes.

Rob: And Kira doesn't even have one.

Ooh.

So it's your standard,
Deep Space Nine episode.

It never appears on any of
your top five or top 10.

And I know; I looked.

Everyone goes for Pale Moonlight or Beyond
the Stars or Trials and Tribble-ations.

Those ones that really take
the format and shift it.

Whereas I always remember this episode.

I always remember it more than any
others, because it is everything that

Deep Space Nine should be, is there.

Every character gets a focus.

Every character has a little adventure.

Odo is his usual beautiful, snarky, self.

Nog's annoying.

Jake's there trying to mediate things.

Quark is all in self-interest.

Kira is such a brilliant lead character
and Sisko's there as the guide.

Plus you've got the Bajoran
politics happening there as well.

So for me that's Deep Space Nine.

Kevin: To your earlier point, this
very by-the-book DS9 episode, it good?

Rob: It's one that you
watch, and you enjoy.

And it's one that you forget.

It's not one that you go back and
rewatch over and over again, but it

is a good, standard Deep Space Nine.

And there's less and less of them
once we get into the Dominion war.

And there's little hints of it, because
I forgot when I re-watched it, how

early the Dominion are brought in,
or the, at least the, threat of them.

Kevin: The specter of them.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah.

And they become what is now known,
thanks to Buffy and all that type

of stuff, the overarching villain.

But yeah there is a mention of it.

They have to flee because they were
persecuted by a race who were a part

of a group only known as the Dominion.

So it has all those elements there.

And for whatever reason, I always
remember this episode because, the

gamma quadrant couldn't be translated.

So for the first 10 minutes,
they can't communicate.

They're so reliant on the universal
translator, which I find amazing.

And that moment when the translator's
starting to figure out little words

like help or need and all that
stuff and the joy, when they finally

can communicate with each other.

Always remember that.

Kevin: Where I'm landing with this
is these episodes, they did the

formula to its fullest and there
are examples of what the show was

before it became something more.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: And I almost feel, as the writers,
I might have panicked a little once this

episode was out, it was because it's
like, oh, okay, well, we've done it.

Now we need to find something else to do.

Because our one idea that we
had, like the pitch is done now.

So what comes next?

Hopefully our characters are strong
enough to carry us somewhere else.

Rob: I mean, they could have done that
format forever and it would've been

like a procedural cop drama type thing.

You know, you see them all the time,
the exact same format of a cop show,

procedural thing, they do it with just
a different hat on the lead character.

But they had to go, well, we've done that.

We don't want to do that
over and over again.

And so then it shifts into being
that, interplanetary, galactical, war

spectacle, and they explore other issues.

Kevin: The dark side of Star Trek.

The murky ethics of Star Trek.

Rob: Yeah.

So that was for me, one that I always go
back to for some reason, but re-watching

it today I went, yeah, it's it is
that fundamentally basic structure

of what Deep Space Nine would be.

Kevin: I think I have that
for Star Trek: Voyager.

Should I go next?

Rob: Ah, I was interested.

I was almost gonna pick a Star Trek:
Voyager, but I went with a different one.

So I'll be interested
to which one you picked.

Kevin: Okay.

All right.

Great.

So I'm taking us to Star Trek: Voyager
season one, episode 10, "Prime Factors".

Rob: Ooooh!

Kevin: And I expect no one to
recognize that episode by its title.

I certainly could not have told you the
title of this episode, but I remember the

story and it, to me, is an exact mirror
of what you just described, from DS9.

Is it is the episode that is a completely
stereotypical episode of Star Trek:

Voyager, as it was originally conceived,
before it became something more.

In Prime Factors, the crew of the
Voyager are welcomed to a vacation

planet, for a respite at the
start of their long journey home.

And they discover that this planet
has an amazing transporter technology

that can transport people 40,000 light
years away, which is more than half

a distance back to Federation space.

And immediately everyone's
like, this could be it.

We could get most of the
way home in a single jump.

And if, if we could take the
technology with it, we could get

all the way home in two jumps.

We may have solved it right
here in season one of Voyager.

We we're about to go home, people.

But the crew is tested, because
the planet has a prime directive

of its own, and it is not allowed
to share technology with outsiders.

And as Janeway says in a speech in the
observation lounge, this is our first

time being on the other side of the Prime
Directive, and it doesn't feel very good.

The planet is populated by a race
of pleasure seeking individuals, and

one of the ways that take pleasure
is by telling stories, and stories

are the currency of this planet.

Some of the crew of the Voyager, in
particular the Maquis who have not

yet fully settled to being a part of a
Starfleet crew and subject to Starfleet

ethics and regulations, they hatch a
mutinous plan to steal the library of

literature from the Voyager main computer
and trade it for this trajector technology

that will let them jump all the way home.

Rob: Classic Maquis.

Kevin: At the last minute, Tuvok, trying
to spare Janeway the impossible, lose-lose

situation, says I'll make the trade.

And he beams down, exchanges the library
for the device, brings it on board.

The device blows up in engineering
and is revealed to be fundamentally

incompatible with Starfleet technology.

It was never gonna work and
it only works on this planet.

So they're outta luck.

But the final scene of this is a beautiful
duet between Tuvok and Janeway, where

she says, I know you were trying to
save me, but that's not what this is.

We need to trust each other.

I need to be able to come to
you when I'm feeling weak and

you need to be the check on me.

And she says, don't use your logic
behind my back; bring your logic to me.

And he says, my logic was
not in error, but I was.

And it's just, oh, beautiful.

There are parts of this
episode that are bumpy.

These pleasure seeking aliens, in
particular the magistrate in charge

of them, is a singularly creepy guy.

He is creeping all over Janeway
and like touching her face and

holding her shoulders when he's
talking to her and it is icky.

And she is doing her best
to act like she likes it.

So that is not fun.

Rob: Mulgrew is a very good actor.

Kevin: She is great.

She sells it despite everything.

But the last third of this episode,
where Torres is hiding what she's

doing from the bridge, as they try to
make this machine work and send them

home, and Janeway facing off against
Tuvok about this ethical quandary.

It is so, so good.

For me, it is the prototypical episode
of Voyager because it has, again, all

the elements: a possible way home,

Rob: Mm-hmm.

Kevin: blocked by an ethical dilemma,
and the crew of Voyager fighting

each other because half of them
don't feel like they are Starfleet.

Rob: Well done.

Kevin: So for me, Prime Factors is what
they thought they were gonna do every

week when they first invented Voyager.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I do remember that one.

That was the interesting stuff
that really worked on Voyager.

Half are Maquis, half are Federation,
how does that work, dynamic?

Every mission or every place we're getting
to is another way of getting home, and

still sticking to our Starfleet rules.

And do we keep to them, even though we
are on the other side of the universe?

Kevin: As an early episode, we still had
Seska yet to be unmasked Cardassian spy,

and so she was the most mutinous one.

She was the one that could do the
irredeemable things and say, "Oh, um,

okay, it didn't work, but let's erase
the logs so we don't get caught."

And Torres goes, no, we're
going to face the music.

And so having that sacrificial character
that I guess they knew they were gonna

get rid of so they could make her do
irredeemable things, was really useful.

But also this thing of dangling
the possibility of a big jump home.

It's something that could probably only
do once, maybe twice a season before

it would get really tired as a formula.

And so this is, for me, the first
memorable one of, we might be going home.

Rob: And they shifted it to be
more like, what role do they

play within this new quadrant?

And so what alliances they have
made and what type of strategies?

Yeah.

As opposed to, what can we find
to, knock off 10, 15, 20, you

know, 60 years of our voyage home.

I was contemplating one just a bit
later on, "Learning Curve" where

Tuvok takes a couple of the Maquis
crewmen and tries and tries to,

Kevin: Whip em into shape.

Rob: Whip em into shape.

But uh, your choice is, uh, far
more of a perfect representation.

Kevin: Well, we'll come back to
Learning Curve another day, I…

Rob: Another day, we shall come back
when we do a Tuvok's focused episode.

Kevin: Uhhuh.

Rob: For my second one, jumping
ahead to Strange New Worlds.

Kevin: Ooh, wow.

Modern, modern Star Trek.

Is this breaking our rules?

Are we actually going into
the past of Star Trek?

If we're going to Strange New Worlds?

Rob: Well, you know, that we'll need
to you know, like James T., Kirk

will flout all the time traveling…

Kevin: We've got a whole first
season, so surely the prototypical

episode is in there somewhere.

Rob: Definitely.

And especially because, you know,
we came into reviewing, uh, these

episodes quite late and some people have
been getting in touch going, are you

gonna go back and do the other ones?

Um, and, and, you know, we are very
much like F Murray Abraham in the

failed, uh, Journey To The Center Of
The Earth pilot done in the nineties,

we are forward, ever forward.

But it doesn't mean we can't…

Kevin: Ever forward, but looking…

Rob: Looking back at some points,
we can look in the rear view mirror.

So I'm looking at, episode six of
season one of Strange New Worlds,

"Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach".

Kevin: Ooh, many people's least
favourite episode of the season.

Rob: Ah, but for me, it's, it
is ah, chef's kiss, beautiful.

I love the twist ending.

I love that fundamental structure
of going this is good, old fashioned

Star Trek style science fiction
of that adventure journeying from

location to location, interacting
with a culture, what that culture sees

as acceptable, what we see as not.

And do we let this pass by or not?

And it's a great sci-fi twist.

That's very big in the early eras of
television sci-fi like with the Twilight

Zone, The Outer Limits and with that
twist at the end, just to give us a

little bit of a stab to the heart.

Kevin: Gimme the broad strokes,
for those like me who are

struggling to remember the details.

Rob: There's a idyllic culture,
there's this young figure, this

child who is seen as this holy
deity within their society, who is

coming up to their day of Ascension.

For whatever reason, people are
trying to kidnap him, take him away.

The child is saved and these
fanatics have been stopped.

And it isn't until right near
the end that we find out the true

meaning of the word Ascension this…

Kevin: …what the child
was being saved for.

Rob: He's taken down to the depths
of the planet and he is pretty much

used as an engine to keep the planet
going to keep all the riches that this

planet has for this entire society.

The only way it works is if
this child is sacrificed.

Kevin: He keeps the hovering
continents hovering.

Rob: Exactly.

And so that beautiful, horrifying moment
when Pike has done all, he could to save

this child and this child doesn't even
know what they're doing until that moment

the previous holy child's rotting corpse
is, uh charred corpse is being taken away.

The child feels that fear and
Pike realizes what have we done.

And he is literally powerless
to stop tradition carrying on

and this child is sacrificed.

It happens anyway.

Kevin: Many is the episode of the
original series in which Kirk beams

down to a planet, takes stock of
what's going on and effectively says

your society is stupid, I'm gonna
break it for you, and then they leave.

And the first episode of
Strange New Worlds has that.

Pike beams down into the middle of their
council chamber and says, stop fighting.

This war is stupid.

Rob: And you wanna know why,
because we did all that.

We were stupid.

Kevin: Maybe is that is the
prototype of TOS, whereas Strange New

Worlds is the world is so strange,
it gets away from us a little.

And we're swept up in it.

And we don't quite realize what we're
dealing with until it's too late.

Rob: Exactly.

I think this was the one that
really started to flip things around

because, people going, oh yeah,
it's so positive, and so joyous,

and it's what real Star Trek is.

It's getting away from what Discovery
was doing and what Picard was doing

in season one, which was so grim and
dark, and all this stuff is so hopeful.

And then it twisted the knife in,
at the end and going, yeah, you

can still have that hope and that
positivity, but you can't have that

light without a bit of the darkness.

And I think that's where Strange
New Worlds balances that darkness

perfectly in that episode.

There's been conjecture about whether
it's too dark in later episodes, but

here they get that perfect balance
of what good sci-fi should be.

It should always be opening us
up to looking at ourselves and

what we do in today's society.

It just happens to be set
200 years in the future.

Kevin: It is interesting to me
what has been left off of our list.

So Discovery, I struggle to
pick a stereotypical episode of

Discovery because I don't know
what that show is trying to be.

Rob: Well, because they have they have
shifted from season to season, you know…

Kevin: Even shifted in the inception
of the show, like they changed

creators and then they changed
writing team during the first season.

So the original idea was to create an
anthology show following characters

who were not on the bridge of ships,
like Michael Burnham around the

backwaters of the Star Trek universe.

But that is they threw
that concept away early on.

Rob: And they just made Michael
Burnham, the greatest person in the

history of the universe who can solve
every single problem, and every single

emotional issue they have is the focus.

Kevin: I would almost say that
is what it ended up becoming.

I think they do talk a bit about how
early in the run of the show, they

had figured out that this was going to
be the long form story of how Michael

Burnham became captain of a ship.

From prison to back in charge of a ship.

But she's done that now,
and the show's still going.

Anyway, I struggle with
Discovery's identity crisis,

and I think many of us do.

Rob: I do too.

Kevin: I wonder what the stereotypical
episode of it being a long road,

getting from there to here would be.

I don't know what
Enterprise is trying to be.

Rob: You can't even, you can't even
lower yourself to say the name of it!

Kevin: There are great
episodes of Enterprise.

And I think if I had to guess
what that show was trying to be

is how did Star Trek come to be?

How did we go from the human
world that we have now, how did

we make the leap into the future?

How did we overcome our humanity
to become the humans of Star Trek?

Rob: I mean, I haven't
watched as much of Enterprise.

Uh, I have hardly watched any of it.

I mean, and I love Scott Bacula,
he's my Quantum Leap man.

But I remember watching that first episode
and that got me a little intrigued when

like a Klingon is on the planet Earth
and they've never seen one before.

So they're going, what is this?

Like Picard doesn't
really have a standard…

Kevin: Oh, yeah.

I completely forgot about Picard.

Which is the most Picard
episode of Picard?

Conversation for another day.

Rob: Yeah.