Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello and welcome, dear
listeners, to Subspace Radio.

It is me, Rob.

Kevin: And it's me, Kevin.

Rob: And we are back!

A new episode of Star Trek is out there
in the ether, so we are back to talk

about Discovery season 5, episode 3.

Kevin: Jinaal.

Rob: We are returning to Trill.

Uh, we've already been there
once before in Discovery, which

I will go so far to say one of my
favourite episodes of Discovery.

There are very few of them.

Kevin: Oh was it, now?

Rob: Yeah, there was, there was some good
elements to it from what I can remember

when I watched it all those years ago.

I liked some elements of how they
represented the Trill culture and

definitely how the past lives and
personalities of the Trill hosts sort of

like unify together to become a community.

I love those type of elements,
so that was something I was not

expecting and got me a bit emotional.

But, uh, I have not done a
recent re watch like you.

Kevin: Yeah, I mean, the short version
of it is, I think it was maybe just a

little, it leaned a little too far into
the, the mysticism that sometimes, you

know, plagues alien cultures in Star Trek.

When they get into those pools on
Trill and they're trying to reconnect

Adira with their past hosts, in the
Tal symbiont, the scenes that take

place in that milky bath are, for me,
a little too fantastical and magical.

They get sucked under the water and
like Burnham jumps in and she, she's

like, where, where has she gone?

Uh, because Adira was still
going by she back then.

She's like swooshing through the water
and it's like Adira's body vanished into

the milk, is what we are given to believe.

There's this weird sphere that
cracks that is supposed to

indicate that Adira is in trouble.

And then they go under the water,
like, Burnham also disappears into

the milk, strangely, and then they're
in this world of CG filaments that

is very eye popping, and I enjoyed
it like I enjoy a, uh, an expensively

produced CG cutscene in a video game.

It lost all connection with the science
in science fiction to me at that point.

And coming back to this week's episode,
I thought they like revisited all the

same kind of, uh, fascinating alien
culture stuff that you said you enjoyed

about that old episode, but they took
it back a notch in the magic department.

Rob: Very much so.

Yeah, I love the, um, I actually,
yeah, I love the Trill culture.

I really do.

It's, it's something, because I
am a Doctor Who fan, it's Star

Trek's version of Doctor Who.

It

Kevin: yeah, it sure is.

Rob: I could see the only way they
could justify it is the Doctor Who

type of magic of regeneration is
to do it in this most complex of

scientific ways with the Trills.

Kevin: And that's what we're going
to explore on this week's episode

of Substance Radio, is the Trill,
particularly memorable joined Trill.

Um, we said memorable Rob, but
when I went looking, there's

not actually that many of them.

We can get through them all, I think.

Rob: Yeah, like, um, I, I, I spent
a lot of my research and stuff just

looking at past Dax incarnations
and just how fascinating all,

like, I think there's about eleven.

Uh, incarnations of Dax
in one way, shape or form.

But yes, so they return to Trill and
this episode is very Indiana Jones.

It's very adventure, solve the puzzle
to get to the next clue, to get to

this, the high adventure aspects of it.

So much so, when their ambassador from
Trill appears, they can only communicate

further if the riddle is solved.

And of course Burnham's the
only one who solves the riddle.

Uh, to give them access to, you know, to
get onto Trill, which I find hilarious.

And there's more

Kevin: that is one of those things
that I enjoyed it as well, and at

the same time was conscious that I
shouldn't think about this too much.

Just go with it, is what,
like, there was a voice in my

head saying, just go with it.

To me, this is a, more than most
Discovery episodes, this is a

classic Star Trek episode structure.

It felt like an episode of
The Next Generation from

the, the 80s and 90s to me.

It had three plots, none of which
were strong enough or well enough

executed that they would have carried
an episode on their own, but somehow

together by constantly cutting
between them, they kept my interest.

And the overall sense was just
comfort food for me, like this was

not a great episode of Star Trek,
this is not a terrible episode of

Star Trek, it was one that I could
just feel like, oh yeah, I'm home.

This is, this is Star
Trek when it is normal.

Rob: Yeah.

It felt very normal.

I mean, did we have three or do we
have, I'm trying to like, or do we

Kevin: Yeah, if you count Adira and
Grey breaking up on Trill, that's maybe

a fourth, but I would call that, like,
uh, plot A 1 instead of just, uh, A.

Yeah.

Rob: Yes.

So basically we had the main plot
which, well, main plot I'm doing in

inverted commas of trying to find the
next piece of this puzzle that will

lead them to the, um, uh, to, you know,
the technology to save all technology

Kevin: As we X Files fans used
to call it, the mythology thread.

Rob: Damn right, damn right.

Uh, we also had, um, Saru
going through his, um,

Kevin: Saru's back.

Guess what?

Saru's still on the show.

Rob: After all our talk
last week, is he gone?

Is he out?

Nope, he's there.

He's right there.

Kevin: He's just got a new job.

Rob: Yep, his growing pains of
getting used to being an ambassador

and how that works with his new
relationship and how they communicate

and how they respond to stressful
situations or tension within their

relationship, which was quite adorable.

Kevin: And then, uh, Rayner's one
on ones on the ship with Tilly.

Rob: Rayner's one on ones, and then
also the, uh, uh, sub subplot, sub

plot, doing my Jack Black there,
of, um, yeah, the breakup of our

two young star crossed lovers.

Kevin: For me, the highlight
of this episode was Wilson Cruz

playing Jinaal, uh, embodied.

Rob: Yes, so this is the A plot where
they have to go back to Trill because

the only way that the clues will be
given if they go through some ancient

Trill ceremony where that persona is
passed on into a willing host, just

the persona, not the actual symbiont
that stays within, uh, the present

Kevin: Yeah, in a ritual, the
Zhian'tara ritual, which has been seen

twice before, once in a classic DS9
episode called Facets, where we got

to meet all of Dax's previous hosts.

Rob: You're going to see me
talking about that a lot.

Kevin: And, uh, the other one, we saw
it recently in Discovery in Choose to

Live, which I think may have been the
very next episode after you gave up

on Season 4, and that's the one where
they put Gray into an artificial body.

So if you're wondering who this
Gray is, or, I guess you got to

meet Gray, but last time you knew
Gray, Gray was not in physical form.

They performed a Zhian'tara
ritual to unjoin Gray from the Tal

symbiont and, uh, put them in a Dr.

Soong style golem, they call it.

But uh, uh, an artificial
body just like Picard has.

Rob: A Picard body, yeah.

So yes, I was aware that, um, yeah,
Gray was, could only be seen by Adira.

Kevin: Not anymore Gray's walking
around and talking around now.

Rob: has, uh, has been given a body
and, um, so I, I just saw that and went,

alright, okay, so something happened.

Kevin: Yeah, stuff, stuff happened.

That's right.

Well, it was a Zhian'tara
ritual that happened.

Rob: Bless them.

Um, so yes, we had our doctor go around
with this ancient personality Trill,

and taking them to the location of
the next clue, but little did they

know, um, Burnham and Book have,
are going through a trial of their

own to see whether they are worthy
enough to receive this, uh, next clue.

Because this clue could change
the face of the universe.

Kevin: Yeah, lots of, uh, lots of hijinks.

What's a season of Star Trek
without a walk through a

strangely lit quarry, you know?

Uh, we get those every now and then and
we are fulfilling our quota this season.

Um, some of this stuff felt a
little padded out to me, like the,

do we go on three or after three?

How many times?

It just in Star Trek, have we seen that,
that scene and, and those scenes were

also like, they were going slow for me.

It seemed like they were
performing them slow.

Like they had time to fill in the episode.

I don't know if you felt the same
way, but some, some of that stuff,

I was kind of like, okay, maybe
I'm just getting old, but I've,

I've heard these gags 10 times now.

Um, it doesn't feel fresh to me anymore.

But what I did enjoy was Jinaal's
retelling of the history of the group of

scientists that came together after The
Chase in Star Trek: The Next Generation

and worked across cultures, across
species to research and ultimately

find the technology of the Progenitors.

Rob: Yeah, it was a, I mean, the whole,
that whole sequence was very much reminded

me of that episode of the animated
series we watched when they went back

to Vulcan and you find out, oh, okay,
Vulcan has big, giant, pet tigers and

all these huge creatures that run around
and where they're going, alright, so

Trill's the same, they've got these huge

Kevin: It's got cloaking bees that spit

Rob: Yes, okay, this is
our reality now, okay, um.

But I did enjoy the end of it
when they finally, you know, went

the high moral ground and said
they'd come back later and they

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: creatures.

That's Star Trek.

That's Star Trek.

It's not about force.

It's about heart and mind.

And to have that beautiful moment with
Jinaal sitting there just enjoying that

sunset for the final time or enjoying that
breath when, uh, that was quite beautiful.

Kevin: And playing such a, a distinct
and yet still very charismatic

and fleshed out character.

Like I really enjoyed Wilson Cruz
flexing his acting muscles in a

way that I hadn't seen before.

Um, yeah.

Enjoyable.

Rob: Wilson Cruz was, uh,
exceptional in this episode.

One of my big, I've talked about him
before, Matt Baume is a great, pop

culture, um, YouTuber and stuff like that.

And he's at the moment going through My
So-Called Life, the Claire Danes show

from the 90s and Jared Leto was on that.

And Cruz was on that TV show, he
got one of his big breaks on, uh, on

that, so I saw a young version of him
running around, I'm going, there we

go, the Doctor, in different timelines.

Um, but he was, he was exceptional
in this episode, shifting characters

so simply, and um, beautifully.

Kevin: Ultimately what we learn is that
they discovered this technology at a

time where the Dominion War was raging.

And they made the decision that the
galaxy or the, the, you know, the evolved

species of the alpha and beta quadrants
are not ready for this technology.

They, they're not able
to use it responsibly.

If it gets out now, it will
be misused as a tool of war.

So we're going to put it in a time capsule
with a bunch of riddles locking it and

someone someday will be worthy of this.

And here we have Book and Burnham kind
of being asked a bunch of questions

about, that amount to, are you worthy?

And I really, I liked that moment
where he turned to Burnham and

said, you don't look so sure.

And she said, look, it is a time of
peace, but progress isn't linear.

I can't say it'll last.

I liked the shades of grey of that.

At the same time, we are 800, 900,
1,000 years, I forget the exact number,

into the future from that Dominion War.

But I, I mean, I look at what we know of
Starfleet and the Federation and the rest

of the galaxy in this time, and I'm, I
ask myself, is it really that different?

Like, is the only practical difference
that there isn't a war raging?

Is that the only reason that they're
going to let this technology out, or are

we meant to believe that humanity has
leapt some significant hurdle of evolution

that makes them worthy now in a way
that they weren't in the 24th century?

Because I feel like Captain Picard
could have answered those 20

questions in the quarry just as
effectively as Book and Burnham.

Um, what are we meant to believe
has changed in the galaxy?

I'm not really sure.

Rob: And we haven't really,
you know, seen it that much.

I mean, I've already, I've
watched, you know, I've watched

the full season of their first.

time in the future.

I've obviously skipped season four.

Um, yeah, so I, I haven't seen as
much of a clear distinction apart

from how they treat technology.

I haven't seen that full evolution into
to find any evidence that they have

evolved to the point where they are ready
and not just, you know, the same type

of stuff they do in regular Star Trek,
just with a different star date on it.

Kevin: Well, I mean, for, for the record,
having seen that, that season that you

haven't, nothing happened there that
convinced me that this is a particularly

evolved, enlightened time for the galaxy.

So in that sense, I mean, if that's what's
going through Burnham's head in that

moment, I kind of like that, that doubt.

And I wonder if it, if it's
going to play into how this, how

this season eventually resolves.

Rob: We can, we can, but only hope.

Kevin: Hmm.

The one on ones with
Raynor were hilarious.

Rob: I loved them for the same
reason I adored Pike coming

in at the start of season two.

Where he pretty much came in and said, I
don't know any of you, tell me your names.

Kevin: He was so much
nicer about it though.

Rob: But for me it was also that
case of, I've mentioned it many times

before, Star Trek works as an ensemble.

Kevin: Right.

So, getting to meet some of
these characters as an audience,

Rob: Yeah, the original series
was very much our three leads,

and the rest were supporting.

Next Gen was very much shaped as an
ensemble, and through the course of

the seven years, the sort of like,
the importance shifted because of

the performances and the writing, so,
and Deep Space Nine was very ensemble

as well as was Voyager, but this has
been very much, you know, as I've

said many times before, Burnham's
show and everybody else is supporting.

So, I enjoyed Pike coming in being very
nice and going, Introduce me to all of

this crew that we've known for a year,
but we don't know any of their names.

And so to have a more, you know,
mean version of it come in.

For me, it also knocked out
the smugness of Discovery.

Of the Discovery cast going, yeah,
we're great, we're cool, we're

awesome, we're amazing, we're
brilliant, we get on so well.

Kevin: Let me tell you about my hobbies.

Rob: Yeah, let's just,
let's talk about this.

And Tilly there going,
yeah, we're all really cool.

And he's going, I don't really care.

I like the outsider coming in
going, you're not all that,

Kevin: Yeah.

And, and, and, I'll also agree with you
that this also, despite that more cynical

lens on it, some of the glimpses of these
characters that we got were intriguing,

like some of these people I thought,
wow, you know, you've been standing there

for four seasons, and I just see now,
you're an awesome actor, and I would,

I would love to see a story about you.

Rob: This is what we talked about last
week about the way that storytelling

has shifted, how we consume media
has shifted so much that we do not

have 24 episodes a season anymore.

So, those arcs of characters, that
familiarity is gone and we have to

connect with characters so much quicker.

But that's a, that is a clear indication
of how badly Discovery has been

structured as a show that we are five
seasons deep into this and you're only

now looking at these people going,
oh wow, you're a really good actor.

You deserve more than just standing around
looking at Michael Burnham impressed.

I'm there going, all these characters
were so fascinating, um, that we should

have seen more of them over four seasons.

More subplots, more them going on
away missions and stuff like that.

You can't give all the heavy
lifting, um, to, to, uh, Tig?

Kevin: Tig Notaro, who wants chips.

Rob: Yeah, you can't give all
the heavy lifting to Tig Notaro.

They are amazing and incredible and
brilliant and they can just be charming

in their sleep, um, apparently.

Not that I would know.

Um, but yeah, I was just there
going, that's a disservice to your

incredible cast that they are only
there to service your lead actor,

which is not what Star Trek is about.

Star Trek is a group of people
working together and we learn

to survive with all of them.

And love them all.

Kevin: Yeah.

I, I still can't see where
they're taking Rayner this season.

Like, he's not exactly redeemed at
the end of this episode, and so is he

going to continue to be an antihero?

Or is he a secret villain for this season?

Like, is, is he eventually going to,
you know, make a bad call for his career

and, uh, and mutiny because he does not
believe in, in Burnham's style of command?

Like, I, I wonder where that's going.

Rob: loop it around because Burnham was,
you know, the traitor and mutinied on

the first season and the first episode.

Kevin: There was a little hint
dropped when we got Stamets's

report in these scenes.

He just dropped the mention that this
technology can reanimate dead organisms.

And I went, Oh, that is,
that feels like a promise.

That feels like a hint at
the climax of this season.

Someone's going to die and we're going
to face a dilemma of whether to use this

technology to resurrect them or not.

Rob: Bring them back to life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin: And then, uh, we
had the wedding plans.

Rob: Yes, yes we did, and we had,
it was very high school drama,

in very, very, okay, we're on the
same committee together, and we're

Kevin: Yeah.

I don't know.

The highschool drama for
me was Adira and Gray, but

Rob: Ha ha ha.

That was very, very high school,
because they're very much

just out of high school, those

Kevin: Yeah, the negotiations about
who's gonna get a starbase, and there's

the snake man sitting there who never
says anything, and they go to a break,

everyone pairs up and starts having chats,
but the snake man sits there all alone.

No one wants to talk to the snake man,

Rob: Why don't you want
to talk to the snake man?

Ha ha

Kevin: I, I enjoyed this glimpse into,
you know, to use a Star Wars term, the

trade negotiations uh, the Federation.

Uh, I wouldn't want to spend every week
here, but it was fun to be a part of.

Rob: Yeah, and to see Saru adjusting
to that, um, he's quite the diplomat

and the well spoken, uh, character.

So he does fit into
this world very easily.

Kevin: He does.

He's very Vulcan when he's in a
relationship with a Vulcan, I have to say.

There, there were several moments
where I was thinking, I need a

little more chemistry between you
two, if I am to believe that you

are madly in love with each other.

The fact that they, his wife to
be compliments his handsomeness

and, and eruditeness in a
memo, in a public statement,

Rob: I do love that.

I did actually like that very much.

I had a little giggle
going, Oh, that's cute.

That's actually quite cute.

Kevin: cute, but I don't feel any heat
between them in the way that we kind of

got a, there was a tingling of it when
it was, will they, won't they, will

they acknowledge their feelings or not?

But now that they've acknowledged their
feelings, it's kind of evaporated to me.

Rob: It's the, it's the Lois
and Clark thing, you know?

The whole, you know, you know,
New Adventures of Superman was

amazing and hot and incredible.

Will Lois and Clark get together?

And, and as soon as they did,
everyone went, nope, that's

it, we don't want it anymore.

Kevin: After they have fight and
Saru admits to her, I've been

terribly uneasy since our tea.

I just thought, Oh, there's just, there's
no, there's no passion in, in any of this.

Rob: Yeah, I, I, I like the
attempt, I mean, I can't believe

I'm, yeah, justifying it.

I like the attempt at a different
form of relationship tension.

So not all, yeah, especially we, we come
off Book and Burnham who are, you know,

all that melodramatic, over the top,
emotional drama to have it reserved back

within this Vulcan, you know, infused,

Kevin: Yeah, totally.

And I'm here for the Vulcan
verbal gymnastics as well.

When Saru's talking with Duvin and
Duvin's saying, let me see if I can

get this right, um, I think T'Rina
is overcome by her emotions, but

you're an emotional being, so you're
always overcome by your emotions,

so I think you can handle it better.

Like, that was the logic, and, Saru
says, your, your logic is a bit

circuitous, and I thought, that's fun.

They're playing with it.

It's playful.

Rob: I can see the attempt, but yeah,
I agree with you, it didn't completely

work because I am not feeling any heat.

There is no warmth.

There can be warmth, like we talked
about last week about, You know,

Star Trek is very good at showing
warmth with little words, or as

little, you know, the expression
comes through the minimalism of it.

Kevin: I mean, you think back to Spock
and T'Pring in Strange New Worlds, and

they're getting out of bed topless with
each other, and, there is heat there.

And, uh, I don't know if just, T'Rina
is a different kind of Vulcan woman,

but yeah, I just want a little bit more
of that Strange New World hot Vulcan.

Rob: Look, when a Canadian asks for
more heat, you give it to them, alright?

Kevin: Um, so then the last
beat in this was Adira and Gray.

It was funny going back and watching
Forget Me Not, which was kind of the

second episode for Adira, and the
first episode for Gray in Discovery,

and watching those characters as
they were first introduced to us,

I enjoyed those characters so much
more in those formative stages.

I don't know if it's because Gray was
playing a different version of Gray who

was joined and had the wisdom of the Tal
symbiont in him, or if Adira was playing

a different version of Adira who still
hadn't figured out what it was to be a

joined Trill, they were still a human who,
who was saying, uh, calling the symbiont

my squid in those episodes, because they
didn't fully understand what, what they

had been gifted with as a joined entity.

And all that early stuff, I don't
know if it's me, but the acting seemed

much more polished and considered.

The characters seemed
deeper and more interesting.

And here in what I might guess might be
the last time we see Gray in this series,

it feels like they have regressed to high
school relationship tropes, and it's not

being played particularly subtly, or at
least not in a way I personally enjoy.

Rob: Yeah, I mean, again, it's like what
they were doing, uh, with Saru, um, is

that case of, I can see what they're
attempting, especially I like the idea

of when we saw them, they were quite
young, impulsive, and finding out what,

what love is and what their connection
is and all the, the longing, because

they're only in my mind type of and to
sh try, they are what, from what I could

tell, they were trying to show this
evolution and this maturity growing in

them and how these two people who love
each other, their lives have kind of

faded away and this acknowledgement of
going we aren't where we were, we're not

who we were, um, and I like that attempt
to show, you know, some relationships

end in a bang, some end in a whimper,
and some, you know, some just fade.

And I like that attempt to show a fade
of something that was, that burnt so

bright and so strong and was so young.

It was very young love
when it started out.

Kevin: I think I don't mind the
writing, but it's something in either

the direction or the performances
that isn't working for me.

Like that first scene in this episode, in
the engine room, where Adira is getting

ready to go and meet Gray and is nervous.

They are stammering and, and huffing
and, and, you know, stuttering

in a way that it is so overplayed
how nervous they are meant to be.

And then Stamets is standing
there and the comedy is meant to

be that he is so clueless as a
father that he doesn't notice.

But to me, that scene would have
worked better if the nervousness

had been underplayed and Jett Reno
is the only one who can see it.

And I think it would have done more
credit to the character of Adira, because

Adira is being played so immature now.

Going back and watching their very first
appearance in the series, even before

they had access to the experience of
this, you know, hundreds of years old

entity inside them, they were already
being played more mature in those

original couple of episodes than now.

It's something about the, yeah,
the maturity of the performance has

gone away in a way that bothers me.

Rob: I agree.

Yeah, they missed, they missed on, missed
out on something being quite powerful

and a beautiful little send off of that
relationship and they kind of misstepped.

Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

So let us, uh, take this moment then as
we're talking about Adira, a joined Trill,

to segue into our topic for this week,
which is, uh, all of the joined Trill.

I made a list because it's not that long.

And I think, Rob, I suggested
to you that we rate them.

But ever since I made that
suggestion, I've been getting

more and more uncomfortable
with it, feels we rating people.

And I'm not sure how we would do that.

Are we the performances?

Are we rating the stories?

Are we rating, I don't
know, something else?

None of it feels good or useful.

Rob: And especially with some of them,
we see multiple interpretations of

that character by different actors,
whether in flashback with a different

actor or then in, you know, in Facets,
we had, you know, actors we know

from the regular cast, uh, you know,

Kevin: embodying.

Yeah, other Yeah.

To me, there are, there are the
featured joined Trill here, uh,

the people who are stars or like
guest stars of an entire episode.

And we see them as they are
at that point in their life.

And, and in that sense, I feel
like Jadzia Dax and Ezri Dax are

both fully formed characters that
we might consider separately.

But then there are these former hosts that
we are told about, or we get to meet in a

flashback or in a fleeting encounter, and
I feel like we can set all of those aside.

And I'm interested in, in considering
these, you know, characters we

have properly met and fleshed out.

And for me, they are Odan on, on
Star Trek The Next Generation, the

original Trill, Jadzia, there is
Lenara Kahn who is Jadzia's ex-wife

or a, a ex-wife of a former Dax host.

And there's Ezri, there's Adira Tal
in Discovery, and there is Jinaal Bix

who we met this week, kind, sorta.

I don't even know wanna
put Jinaal on the list.

Rob: Well, yeah, I, I
did the exact opposite.

I just did a full deep dive
into the former lives of all the

Dax's, because I got so engrossed.

I'm there going, this is absolutely
fascinating, because it's like a

history, a history of the Federation
as well as all this type of stuff.

So,

Kevin: Well, why don't you take us
through the Dax history and then I will

take my research into the other Trill
as a compare and contrast at the end.

Rob: Beautiful.

Alright, so, okay, if we're looking at
Facets, which is Season 3, Episode 25

of Deep Space Nine, Dax, uh, Jadzia goes
through the process of having one on

one conversations with all her previous
incarnations, using a Doctor Who term.

And the spirit of that, uh, incarnation
goes into another host form.

And so the actors throughout
Deep Space Nine fill those roles.

Kevin: Something that's happened
several times where we've gotten

to see those actors play different
characters, and I think we've talked

about that on a previous episode.

Rob: Love it.

That's what, yeah, I love most
about, uh, the Deep Space Nine cast.

It's the most consistent of quality
of actors and they show that.

In all seven seasons of going check out
our Bond episode, check out our Badda-bing

episode, check out this episode here.

We see the variety, um, you know, the
episode where they're all completely

different characters, 1950s, with Benjamin
Sisko being a black writer in the 1950s.

So, we start off with the
first incarnation, which is

Lela Dax, played by Kira.

Jadzia gets, uh, holding her
hands behind her back from Lela.

Yeah, very powerful figure.

We have, uh, Tobin Dax is
the second one with O'Brien.

O'Brien's an engineer; Tobin was
an engineer, and Tobin was a bit of

a man about town, uh, had quite a
few relationships under his belt.

Kevin: But kind of a fidgety,
kind of funny little dude, right?

Rob: Biting his nails?

Kevin: Yeah, he's almost
a Ferengi, I felt like.

Rob: Very Ferengi esque, um, we have
Emony Dax, uh, which we had Leeta fill

in that role, Chase Masterson doing a
great job, who was a, an Olympic gymnast,

if you, if you, if you can believe
that, and had an affair with a very

young Leonard McCoy back in the day.

Kevin: Yeah, I forgot about that, that's

Rob: Yeah, very, very
cute, very, very cute.

Then we have, uh, Audrid?

Audra

Kevin: Mm hmm.

Rob: Audrid Dax, played by, uh, Armin
Shimmerman's Quark, filled in there.

This incarnation had, um, problems
within her domestic life, uh, didn't

speak to her daughter for years until
they got to reconcile at the end.

We then move on to Torias, Torias
Dax, and this is the incarnation,

um, who was married to, uh, Lenara.

They're an adventurer, a thrill seeker,
who eventually died in a shuttle

accident, and that was, um, Julian
Bashir filling that role, which is quite,

uh, quite funny, because especially
with the connection with Julian having

the hots for Jadzia at the start.

Now, the next one.

This is the most fascinating one for me.

This is Joran.

Joran Dax,

Kevin: The murderer!

Rob: The murderer, the serial killer.

And he comes back in a season 7
episode with Ezri, because Ezri's

trying to hunt down a serial
killer within Deep Space Nine.

It's a great episode, really.

Kevin: This host was originally
kind of erased or hidden, right?

It came out in an early episode.

Rob: Um, yes, the, uh, the Trill
Council erased the memories, or

sorta like held back the memories
from Jadzia getting access to them.

'cause this was a blight on the,
that whole symbiont experience.

'cause only the best of the best could,
uh, you know, hold onto a symbiont.

And Joran was a, was a, uh, a
musician, a very famous musician,

and turns out that he was, you know,
a psychopath and killed people.

But they had to go through this process
so that Jadzia could get access to

those memories and prove that that
would make, you know, that would not

consume her, they would actually better
her as a, um, as a Trill symbiont host.

Um, and he comes back as a memory within
Ezri Dax, and Ezri Dax is almost, uh,

manipulated into killing herself because
Joran wants her to feel what it's like.

Um, fascinating stuff.

Great stuff.

Joran's great, great, uh, incarnation.

We got little tastes of him
more than any of the others.

Uh, we then have Curzon.

Curzon, just before, which
we know so much about

Kevin: Old man!

Rob: Old man.

His relationship with Sisko.

Um, there's a previous episode where,
you know, he had an affair with a

higher up member from a different
planet with the whole war raging.

Kevin: I like Curzon because we are
given to believe that he, he was both

a hard ass, who believed intensely
in things being done well or right.

He would have been your most
strict professor at university.

Like, that is Curzon.

And at the same time, he
was a complete party animal

womanizer in his private life.

Rob: And as Jadzia describes,
he fell in love with everyone.

He fell in love with every
woman he met, and pretty much

every other week he was in love.

And he indeed fell in love with Jadzia,
that's why he originally refused her to,

because he was on the council of Trill,
uh, for being selected, and because he

had fallen for Jadzia, he wouldn't do it.

Played by René Auberjonois in, um, Facets.

So like his whole shape shifting
phase became more Trill, he had

a bit more of his expressions.

Got to go out and meet Sisko and have a
drink and all that type of experience.

Really bring Curzon to life, and
René Auberjonois may he rest in

peace, one of the great actors
ever to appear on Star Trek.

Uh, so yeah, Kurzon, we know a lot about
Kurzon just from, you know, all that time.

Kevin: And that brings us up to Jadzia

Rob: Jadzia and Ezri are the
ones that we know, of course.

If it wasn't for ill treatment and poor
negotiations from behalf of the producers,

we would have not had the end of Jadzia
Dax, but, you know, Terry Farrell had

to look out for herself and look after
herself, and she was definitely not

being looked after by the producers on,
uh, Star Trek, and she, uh moves on.

Kevin: It's hard to separate
our assessment or reflection on

these characters from what we now
know went on behind the scenes.

Rob: Yes, very much so.

Kevin: But I'd like to try anyway
and just for, for what appeared on

screen, how do you think of Jadzia
and Ezri as two different people, and

what's interesting about that to you?

Rob: Yeah, I mean, I believe that,
uh, Nicole de Boer, who played,

um, Ezri had the harder job.

Whereas Terry Farrell had five seasons
to develop the character, and as we've

already discussed before, um, she was
very much going under the direction of

play in her first season playing Jadzia
very cool, very calm, hands behind

the back all the time, and not really
allowed to bring any real personality.

Um, so it took her about a season or
two before she started to loosen up

and Uh, you know, play card games,
and drink, and all that type of stuff.

Bring that element of Terry
Farrell's dynamic personality

as an actor to the role.

Kevin: And the writers responding
to it and then putting it in

scripts and yeah, it was a true
partnership finding that character.

Rob: As, as with all good television shows
are, it's about the longer you stay on a

show, the more the writers are inspired by
you, the person, and what you bring to it.

So Nicole had the tough job
of having to make those big

character leaps very quickly.

Also, it was a bit of a complication for
me turning her Ezri into a counsellor.

So, uh, and there was a lot of
interplay about that, I don't know

you, I don't trust you, you're very
young, how can I open up to you?

Kevin: And the role counselor has always
been kind of fraught in Star Trek.

I mean, famously, Troi, Troi was an
underused character, and the, the writers

didn't know what to do with her, and
the actor felt underused as a result,

or, or ill served, and, uh, to cast your
new Dax in the role of a counselor, on

the one hand It fits in the universe
because that's an established role, on

the other hand It is not an easy role
to make your own and make powerful

in a show, especially when you've got
just the last year or so to do it.

Rob: Yeah, I mean, psychology has evolved
so much just within the last 30 years,

and so trying to present a futuristic
view of psychology from a, from a 1980s

point of view and then slowly evolving
in the 1990s has always been tricky.

But um, I love, I love both
interpretations of Dax.

Um, I love all the interpretations,
really, all the incarnations, and

I think both Nicole and Terry bring
different energies, and, and, and both

are worthy, and both are, uh, acceptable.

Just like with Doctor Who, you bring
your own personality to the incarnation.

You don't play a type of character,
you play your version of it.

That's love about both those incarnations.

Kevin: I think we are, we are supposed
to see in the performances, and I do,

and in the writing as well, that in
some ways Jadzia is a more knowing

and confident presence, whereas Ezri
is more self doubting and unsure.

I don't know if that is just meant
to be their age, but it feels to

me more like a character choice,
or a character design choice.

Rob: And it is also the case of, uh,
Jadzia went through the trials and

the, and the process to become a host.

Whereas Ezri, you know, was an emergency.

They just had to do it straight
away because the symbiont was

dying on the way to back to Trill.

Kevin: A proto-Adira, if you will.

I mean, that accounts for Adira's
relative inexperience, the fact that

they are meeting the experience of
being joined with wide open eyes

and fear and, and wonder as well
in the same way that Ezri did.

Rob: Very much so and I mean
you see how the influences are.

Jadzia very much embraces Sisko
straight away and they become

friends almost instantly because
of that connection with Curzon.

Whereas Sisko is quite suspicious at
the start of season seven of welcoming

in another Dax that is connected to
not only Curzon's memory but Jadzia's.

And how Ezri deals with that is a big
part of the drama that evolves over that

season of how she fits and how she wants
to be perceived by the people she knew

but also see the new version of her.

It's, yeah, very clever writing
to bring in in the final season.

Kevin: So since we're talking about Dax
anyway, let's talk briefly about Lenara

Kahn, who comes in an episode called
Rejoined, season four, episode six of Deep

Rob: A controversial,
controversial episode.

Kevin: I mean, the famous same sex
kiss between, uh, Dax and Kahn is,

um, a vivid memory in the young
minds of many Deep Space Nine

fans like you and I, I dare say,

Rob: Very much so.

Kevin: And broke new ground on television.

Rob: Very much broke new ground and
very much a product of the time.

There are so many, so many barriers
put up to get the point where they

have the very intimate, beautiful
kiss between the two of them.

Kevin: Yes.

Not only is it taboo in the real world of
the typical American TV viewer, but it is

taboo in the fiction of Deep Space Nine,
where Trill are not meant to reassociate

with previous romantic partners.

Rob: And very much is the case of any type
of representation of the LGBTIQ community.

Stories about them are always
twisted in a tragic bent.

There's no real, at that time, most of
the stories that we would see, whether

it be Philadelphia, it's a case of
the pain, the punishment, the, the

drama, as opposed to showing just, you
know, a happy, positive relationship.

It's all fraught with, oh, this
is doomed, oh, this is tragic,

oh, this isn't gonna work.

Kevin: And yet, you can see, like, the
merit of what they were attempting here,

dare say, in the context of the time,
radically succeeded in, is that they,

they set aside the, the taboo of the
same sex relationship, and made that

completely a non issue in Star Trek but
then they used the allegory of the Trill

taboo in order to make that rejoining
and ultimately that kiss a shocking

thing in the fiction of the show.

And it allowed us to explore our
reactions to that as an audience free

of the modern prejudices that existed
at the time and still persist today.

Rob: Exactly.

It's a masterpiece of writing to
be able to, it seems as if society

at that time, and producers at the
time, and the network at the time,

laid down all these, restrictions.

And so the writers said, we've
got to work within that, but

we will still tell this story.

And the fact that despite all these
restrictions, it still works today, it's a

beautiful episode, it's a beautiful story.

And you can take, like you said, take
away all those other that they've

added on, you can see this, you
know, doomed relationship that, you

know, and this heartbreak at the end
where, you know, Lenara chooses Trill

custom over, you know over her heart.

Kevin: I mean, ultimately, this was,
this was not a story of queer characters.

It was not a centering queer
characters in pop culture.

I mean, we are getting that
with Adira and Grey now in

Discovery, and that's excellent.

Back then, the Deep Space Nine
audience, or at least the studio

making it, was not ready for that.

What it did do, though, is put a same
sex relationship on a screen in a

way that would invite the audience
to examine their reaction to that.

And that has value in its own way.

Rob: And there is comparisons like we
were talking about with the breakup in

this most recent episode of Discovery.

It isn't in any, it's, it's sad, but
it's two characters just drifting apart.

It's not this tragic end.

It's just going, look, we still
love and respect each other,

but we've kind of moved on.

Kevin: Yes, and I take your point that
there is value to showing that as normal.

Like, those relationships
start and end just like any

other normal relationship does.

Rob: And it's got nothing
to do with their sexuality.

It's all to do with just them as
people, which is great evolution

that we have come through.

But you're right, this story from Deep
Space Nine is not a queer story, but

it can be seen through those eyes.

But all those restrictions made
it very, very clear that, you

it's a very heteronormative time.

Kevin: Yeah, and beyond all of the
work it was doing, uh, as a pioneering

episode in pop culture, uh, exploring
these social issues in its own way at the

time, besides all that, it is a really
great performance by both of these women,

especially Terry Farrell as Jadzia Dax.

To me, this might be the
best acting we get from Terry

Farrell in the entire series.

I don't know, I have not done a full
watch of Deep Space Nine lately, I might

be forgetting some very obvious examples
of knocking down the house, but, uh,

I watched this one just yesterday, and
it brought me to tears all over again.

Saw subtlety, and richness, and multiple
layers to her character, and her, you

know, the, the past character of Torias
Dax, who is married to, uh, Nilani Kahn.

Like, I got, I feel like I got to know
a little more about Torias in this

episode through Jadzia's performance,
and that is a remarkable achievement.

And whoever cast that guest
star, Did a great job because

she did a great job as well.

I felt like she, she matched Terry Farrell
for gravitas and for depth of performance.

And I felt like there, there
was just as much a character.

There were, there were deep,
rich characters on both sides of

this relationship that we got to
experience in this one episode.

Rob: Susanna Thompson,
did an incredible job.

Yeah, the connection between
Thompson and, um, Farrell is amazing.

Their chemistry is incredible.

Kevin: So yeah, that was Lenara Kahn.

And then the, the last joined Trill
I think it's worth talking about is

going way back to the beginning and
rewinding to the host in Star Trek The

Next Generation, Season 4, Episode 23,
where we meet Odan, the first Trill.

Did you ever watch this episode

Rob: We did, we reviewed it,
we reviewed it a while a back,

yeah, so that was my first.

A while a back, gee, type
of terminology is that?

I remember watching it, I got a
little bit annoyed by it, but you, uh,

Kevin: I could understand that.

If you were going back as a fan of
the Trill and, and watching this as

the introduction, you'd, you would
be annoyed by how many things are

wrong about Trill in this episode.

Rob: I felt very much like Krusty
the Clown in that episode of The

Simpsons watching the cartoon
from the German Cat and Mouse.

And I'm just there with a cigarette in
my mouth going, what the hell is that?

Kevin: It does feel someone heard
secondhand, someone talk about what the

Trill were, and they attempted to recreate
them from what they half remembered.

It's it's similar, but different.

Rob: So, yes, I mean, we learn stuff
that, you know, the, the the forehead

ridges were taken off because Terry
Farrell didn't look hot in them.

But they, but it introduced us to the
awesome dots on the skin, which I find far

more fascinating as a creature creation.

I love that.

And, uh, yes, we find out, like,
there's almost a, there's almost like

a robotic change, like when the new

Kevin: When the new host comes and she
goes, I am here to become Odan's new host.

Like, yeah, the implication is
that these hosts are empty husks,

Rob: They're empty husks.

The personality is within the symbiont.

Yes.

Which I love they've evolved out of that

Kevin: It's so much more interesting
where they got to on the second

Rob: much more interesting.

Kevin: Here's tidbit for you.

This is credit, full credit
to Memory Alpha on this.

It says, The difference between this
symbiont and ones shown later was

explained in the non canon novel Forged
in Fire, which explained that the ridged

Trill, such as Odan's host, were the
result of a strain of the Klingon Augment

virus that managed to infect a Trill
colony through visiting Klingon traders.

What do you think of that?

It all links back to Enterprise, Rob.

At the end of the day, Enterprise
always explains everything.

Rob: Hah!

Of course, Enterprise is the hidden gem.

You know what?

Enterprise is the greatest
Star Trek series of all time.

I couldn't even finish that
couldn't even finish it.

Um, look, I

Kevin: There's stuff like the very first,
like the cold open for this episode, Odan

returns to his quarters and in front of
the mirror, like opens his shirt and his

stomach is pulsing and he needs to, he
needs to like, blast it with a little

laser beam to get it to calm down.

Oh.

Rob: And it's a case of nobody,
like, and they're not, the

Trill culture isn't known about.

Kevin: No.

It's kind secretive.

And again, yeah.

People who, who do backflips to make
things make sense in canon, they say

that this event where Odan is revealed
in this episode of The Next Generation

was actually the, the coming out, if you
will, of the Trill species as symbionts

or, or that some of them anyway are is
that, yeah, that was somewhat secretive

and private up until that point.

And yeah, that's not at all on screen.

It's just stories we tell
ourselves after the fact.

Rob: It's very interesting to see how
it evolves and how, just from that first

episode, The Host, and what we get at
now, even with Discovery, it's a, like,

it's, you can look at it the same way as
with Doctor Who as well, because Doctor

Who had different people take over and
shift, but you can still see elements

of the first Doctor, even in Ncuti
Gatwa, you can see components of it.

But with this, it's a sense of, apart
from the fact that there is a host and

there's a symbiont inside, there's very,
very little that you can see familiar

Kevin: Odan was designed as a monster
of the week, if you'll accept that

term, and designed specifically for the
effect that, that that character would

have, or that, that alien would have
on the characters we know, Beverly,

who'd fallen in love unknowingly with
a symbiont, and Riker, who ends up,

um, playing host in that episode.

Rob: Dear old Beverly, looking
for love in all the wrong places.

Kevin: Odan didn't even have two names.

So, like, Odan is the symbiont.

We don't even know the name of the host.

Rob: Well, that's the thing, yeah.

It could be, you know, Derek Odan.

Kevin: Well, William Odan temporarily.

Rob: Ah!

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, should have the two name facets,

Kevin: As I re watched this episode,
there was some real 90s pan flute

action in the score when Beverly was
wrestling with her emotions, looking

across Ten Forward at this, this man,
Riker, who is meant to be the, the man

that she's in love with, but she can't
quite bring herself to accept that.

And Troi is saying, um, If you can
feel those things from the man we

know as Will Riker, accept them.

Accept the love.

The professional advice
from Troi, the counselor.

Rob: And then when Odan comes in as
a woman, she just goes, too much.

I'm out.

Kevin: Well, it was fun going
down memory lane of, uh, the

Trill and their joined characters.

It's kind of neat that there are
still, you know, so few of them

that you can count them on one hand.

And, uh, and it feels like
there's still plenty to be

explored and told about this race.

Rob: Oh, there's even like, there's
two Daxes we didn't even get to.

There's Virad Dax, played by
John Glover, who uh, hijacks

the symbiont of uh, Jadzia.

Kevin: Freakin interesting
episode, that one.

Like, yeah, what do you do when the,
the kidnapped becomes the kidnapper or

the kidnapper becomes the kidnapped?

Like, yeah, so weird.

That's another Tuvix story.

Rob: Yes, it's very Tuvix, isn't it?

Um, and yeah, just, it's a very
melancholy, not even, very sad, bleak

ending of the, nobody dies, but this
whole, this, uh, It's, it's a very, it's a

violation and who is, has a right to who.

There's also, uh, Yedrin, Yedrin
Dax in the alternate one where,

Kevin: They get trapped on the, in
the time bubble sort of thing they,

we see their future generations.

Rob: Jadzia, dies and passes on to
her son and this son tries to keep the

Defiant crew there because they want
their life to keep on going but they have

to go back and so that entire population
of thousands of people are wiped out.

So,

Kevin: Yeah, I didn't like that Dax.

That was not a Dax I enjoyed.

Ha ha

Rob: Yeah, no, we much prefer the serial

Kevin: Haaaaaa!

Uh,

Rob: one.

At least serial killer
Dax helped in some way.

Am I gonna regret saying that?

Maybe, yeah.

Um, but yes, so, so that is the end of our
look at Episode 3 of Discovery Season 5.

We had a bit of a stroll down Trill lane.

Um, I did like that moment at
the end though when the symbiont

went back into the pool and we
kind of saw it just swim off.

That was of a beautiful little moment.

And we'll be swimming back here
next week to talk about, Episode 4.