Episode 60: Dads (PRO 2×01-05)
Rob: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.
Did you miss us?
It has been so long since we've talked
about Star Trek, so let's do it again.
I'm Rob and with me as
always is Kevin Yank.
How are you?
Kevin: Here I am.
Hi.
I just appeared from a time wormhole.
Rob: You certainly did just before
I was about to blow it up, so um,
fortunate for you, um, but I do hope
you don't phase in and out of existence
because that would be really annoying.
Look at us!
We're making references to something
that has been on television.
Well,
Kevin: I hope you've watched the
first five episodes of season two of
Prodigy, dear viewer, because, uh,
we've already spoiled parts of it.
Rob: You got a whole lot of
spoiling in the first 30 seconds.
That's what's guaranteed
here at Subspace Radio.
That's right, Star Trek
is back on the air.
It is on Netflix.
That's right, Netflix is now showing
Kevin: many times Rob have you already
opened Paramount Plus, looked for
Prodigy and gone, Oh, I'm in the
wrong place and gone over to Netflix?
Rob: are here to talk about the first
five episodes of Prodigy Season 2, and
I opened Paramount Plus five times.
Kevin: Yep.
Rob: Yes, the show Paramount Plus
wanted to get rid of, even though they
had pretty much finished Season 2,
They wanted to get rid of it, Netflix
picked it up, and so we are here trying
desperately to use all the will of
fandom to keep this spin off alive.
Because why not?
We enjoyed season
Kevin: It's almost as if Prodigy
is trapped in a parallel future in
which Star Trek stayed on Netflix.
Rob: When we get Star Trek and
temporal reality problems happening,
Kevin: it always gives you a headache.
Rob: Always the headaches.
We've got to get members from the
temporal, you know, agency coming
in and we'll talk about James T.
Kirk and they'll go, oh, we hate that guy.
So yes, Prodigy Season 2 is finally back.
It's launched.
All ten episodes have dropped,
but we are going to break it up
into two parts because we're not
going to binge the whole thing.
We like to
Kevin: Four parts Rob, four parts.
There's 20 whole episodes to this
Rob: That's right.
Why was I thinking there was 10?
I'm there going, season
one was a big one as well.
They split in two.
That's
Kevin: Yeah, that's right.
Rob: This is part
Kevin: We're so used to our
10 episode Star Trek seasons.
20 episodes is downright scandalous.
Rob: almost feels like we're being
spoiled when, you know, that's
something we were used to quite
a lot a couple of decades ago.
Yes, 20 episodes.
20, 20 minute episodes, uh, coming
our way, but we're gonna deal with
the first five and then easily make
our way through the others as we go.
Doing mini binges.
That's a, that's a
phrase, isn't it, Kevin?
Kevin: Sure.
Yes.
I am forcing myself to take it slowly.
So, um, having only watched the first
five, I still have 15 to look forward to.
It's gonna be a while before we
get more new Star Trek after this,
so I don't mind pacing ourselves.
But boy, has it been hard to dodge the
spoilers out there on the internet.
Rob: Well, yeah.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's It's really
tough if you are a member of the, uh,
the ex Twitterverse, to see any type
of spoiler is pretty much a guarantee.
So you've got to be very, very, uh,
tenacious with your being able to
avoid any type of spoilers out there.
Kevin: As usual, we've chosen a
topic from these, these first five
episodes, and we'll be talking about
that after we share our thoughts
on the show, uh, the new shows.
And the topic this week is
dads, dads in Star Trek.
We get to meet Gwyn's dad at a
friendlier time in his life, and,
um, and have a few heart to hearts,
father to daughter, so I thought
we'd, uh, use that as an opportunity
to reflect on other dads in Star
Rob: Great idea.
I'm looking forward to seeing
what you think of, uh, whether we
talk about the best dads, Benjamin
Sisko, and the worst dads, Worf.
poor old Alexander.
He never stood a chance, that poor boy!
Um, so yeah, let's, uh, this is
something we've been looking forward to.
We've, um, sort of like, I discovered,
uh, Prodigy through doing this
podcast, and you'd already started
the process of watching it, so
I had to do the catch up thing.
And it's been, you know, there was
so much negative talk out there
about Prodigy, especially old fans,
you know, the, the defenders of
the gate going, Oh, Star Trek, you
know, made specifically for kids.
Star Trek was always made for
everybody, whether you're a kid or not.
It, and they're going, just
calm your farm, all right?
Um, and And getting into this show,
um, you know, I love talking about
it with you, I've loved the process
of it, and especially what we talked
about mostly, outsiders coming into
the Star Trek world, and learning about
the Federation, and the rules, and the
guidelines, and the, you know, how this
world is structured, as an outsider.
A perfect inroad for what Prodigy
wanted to be: getting kids in who had no
idea about Star Trek, getting into it.
Kevin: I agree.
And in a season that's shaping up to be a
fair bit of Voyager fan service and, and
really heavy timey wimey, uh, storytelling
that I think is almost at risk of pitching
over the heads of the young adults who
are unfamiliar with Star Trek straight
into the laps of the fans like us,
um, it's, it's, it's, I'm happy to say
that there is still a certain amount of
Welcome to Star Trek about this show.
We're still learning about
Turbolifts and Jefferies Tubes
and, and things beyond that.
But we are getting into our
analysis of the show so far.
So, before we get any further, I'm just
going to quickly recap the, the plot
points of these first five episodes.
Rob: Go for it.
Kevin: Into the Breach Part 1: the team,
as we know them, they're mostly acing
this Starfleet Academy Hopefuls program.
They're invited on a study abroad on
Voyager A and they get to meet the
Doctor or the EMH before learning of
Janeway's classified rescue mission
to retrieve Chakotay from the rift
or the wormhole to the future.
Uh, in Into the Breach Part 2, Asencia
has beaten Gwyn to Solum and has foiled
her plan for a smooth first contact,
forcing her to seek out her father.
Back on Voyager, the team attracts
the attention of Maj'el, a
Vulcan Delta Squadron candidate.
A race to Shuttle Bay 3 culminates in
an accidental launch of the ship, the
Infinity, into the rift, and they are
unable to heed the warning of an unknown,
ghostly voice not to enter the wormhole.
In episode three, Who Saves the Saviors,
they crash land on future Solum, and
the team tries not to interfere with
Chakotay's escape, only to discover
that they're fated to assist in it.
Despite their efforts to replay events
exactly as they occurred, Chakotay escapes
on the Protostar, and on present Solum,
Gwyn challenges Asencia to an ancient
test to prove her heritage, and loses.
In Temporal Mechanics 101, the team
is stranded on future Solum, and
they receive a mysterious message
instructing them to save Gwyn.
On present Solum, Gwyn begins to fade from
existence, also hearing a ghostly voice.
And Gwyn has a heart to
heart with her father.
With a lesson from Dr.
Erin in Temporal Mechanics 101, the
team retrofits the Infinity into a
time machine are reunited with Gwyn
and are back in their own time.
A mysterious force repairs the Infinity so
they can finally reunite aboard Voyager.
And in episode five, Observer's Paradox,
dodging the doctor's guard, the team
tries to unravel the mystery of the
ghost that helped to get them home.
Murf is the only one who knows
the answer, but all he can
communicate is a spiral shape.
Guided by Murf's message, Gwyn has
a vision of Chakotay's whereabouts,
and under orders from Jellico,
Janeway collapses the wormhole.
Rob: A lot happening in,
uh, five 20 minute episodes.
A lot to get through and with little
bits of temporal, uh, exploration
last season, obviously they're
really, as you said, leaning heavily
into, uh, the timey wimeyness of,
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: what can be achieved in Star Trek.
Kevin: Big picture, how are you
feeling about season two so far?
Rob: Yeah, I mean we talked a little
bit about like our concerns about going
into it and I mentioned the fact that
what made Prodigy so special was how
that structure was set up of them like
learning about it as they went along
and not being a part Starfleet, but so
there was definitely a vibe of, and it
was even, uh, called out by the Doctor,
of, uh, it does feel in some ways a
little bit Lower Decks in that sense of,
Kevin: I've not seen a crew this,
uh, this, dysfunctional the Cerritos.
Yeah.
Rob: Cerritos, and so yeah,
Kevin: It's funny because you could
tell that, uh, that the actor there
was saying the word Cerritos and he
had never heard it before in his life.
The reading was just,
just slightly unfamiliar.
But, but bless him.
I think, uh, Robert Picardo is
doing a great job with the role.
And uh, the doc in general I'm
finding is really well written.
That character is back in full force and
I'm surprised to discover I missed him.
Rob: Yes.
Oh, I've, I've always was a huge
fan of Robert Picardo and of the
Doctor, but yeah, he is, he's done
some voiceover work before, so
he's definitely knows how to do it.
Him and, um, Yeah, Kate Mulgrew as well,
the two of them are absolute rock stars,
which makes it even clearer that dear
old Chakotay isn't what we'd say one of
the most charismatic voice over actors.
Kevin: I think he's doing all
right with what he's been given,
which is not a whole lot so far.
Rob: Um, but yes, have, great to have
John Noble back as well as the younger
version of Gwyn's dad doing a wonderful,
Kevin: playing a very different
shade of that character, like he's
almost unrecognizable in temperament.
Yeah.
Rob: Yeah.
Um, so yeah, that part was really
sticking out to me, um, of that sense
of, yeah, there's a little bit of going
over ground that we've already seen
for a couple of seasons in Lower Decks.
Uh, Dal was getting a little bit annoying
for me about how, like, an entitled brat
he was in this, in these episodes going,
Kevin: Yeah, he keeps flirting with that.
And, uh, uh, once every couple of
episodes, he tips over into, like, I'm
sitting on the couch going, you know what?
This show would be better without you.
But then he wins me back 10 minutes
later, uh, with, with, you know, a
pep talk to his crew or taking the
initiative when no one else will.
And so, yeah, it's, he's
flip flopping for me.
There are moments that I'm liking
Dal, but just as many moments
where he's grating for me.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I'm, I'm
feeling a bit like, uh, Rok-Tahk is
there going, I'm just gonna be here
in the cetacean lab I'm just gonna do
what I wanna do because we all wanted
this and you're jeopardizing that.
You're being really stupid right now.
But yeah, it's great to have
the characters back; I love
the dynamic between them.
There's been little touches of trying to
advance their, their characters a bit.
So, um, uh, Jankom not wanting
to lose his temper and be within
the Starfleet temperament.
Uh, Rok-Tahk obviously just
excelling in Starfleet.
Um, Zero exploring that lens, sense of
lot, loneliness and sense of isolation.
Kevin: Yeah.
It's this fascination with corporeal
existence and, and going, Oh, I'll
never be able to experience that.
The, the, the Doctor saying In my
experience, we all have opportunities
to, uh, grow beyond our programming.
It's nice.
It's very Star Trek.
At the same time, it almost feels
like a disservice to the character,
where Zero, to me, is an interesting
character from a species we've never
explored before, full of possibilities
in their own right, and it seems almost
a shame to me to reduce them to this,
um, this, you know, Pinocchio the
android archetype, if only I was human.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a, that's a great way of looking
at it instead of, you know, they've lived
in this, this form for so long and now
they've got a way of existing within
this world that they never have before.
The advantages of that as opposed
to playing, you know, the, oh,
I, I want to be human that has
been done so many times before.
Yeah.
I get, I get that and I, uh, uh, I
appreciate that way of looking at it.
Kevin: Once we get a little further in,
there's obviously a, a budding romance
between Zero and Maj'el, the Vulcan cadet.
And that, to me, at least,
is more, more interesting.
I hope they go somewhere interesting with
it, and, and move beyond the, uh, I don't
know, the, the high school, um, blushing
discomfort, and, and go somewhere.
You know, honor that relationship and
actually build it somewhere interesting.
Uh, I'd be on board for that.
Um, Maj'el is, well, obviously named
after Majel Barrett Roddenberry,
character, which is a lovely
And as soon as, as soon as the name
came out, I was like, okay, so this
character is going to be more than
just a grumpy Vulcan in the hallway.
Sure enough, came with us on the,
on the ride through the wormhole.
So I, I don't know where that character
is going, but it seems like it's almost
an addition to the cast this season.
Rob: Yeah, and two for two.
Both animated shows are really bringing
in a new Vulcan character and, um, really
redefining how we look upon Vulcans.
Both strong female Vulcan characters.
Um, so well done Lower Decks for what
you brought in last season and now
Prodigy following a similar vein.
Kevin: And I hope they do something
different with it, because, you know,
Rob: It
Kevin: has been done.
are people.
They're individuals with their own
stories, so I hope we get more than
a, a stereotypical Vulcan story.
And I think that's, I think
that's where we're going.
Rob: I hope so too.
I hope so too.
So yeah, how did you find
these first five episodes?
Were you drawn to it?
Were you happy?
Were you, um, with
anything niggling at it?
Where did you sit on the return season?
Kevin: Well, I would say the headline
for me is that this show never stops
being jaw droppingly beautiful.
With every, every new ship, new scene,
new planet, I am dazzled by how pretty
everything is, and just that new
Voyager A, man, I love those, those
Enterprise E design accents on a ship
shaped like Voyager, like that is a
beautiful merging of, of design ideas.
Rob: It doesn't really remind me
much of the original Voyager, but it
definitely has elements of, you know,
the Enterprise from, um, uh, First
Contact, and definitely has elements
of, uh, Enterprise from Enterprise.
Kevin: Yeah, there's angles like from
from beneath the saucer looking up
at the deflector dish, it does have
that kind of squooshed like where the
Enterprise E is more of I feel like a
vertical secondary hull, this Voyager
A is more squashed vertically and
stretched out horizontally in a way that
does remind me of the front of Voyager.
So there is a bit of
Voyager character there.
Um, but yeah, I, I would certainly agree
that it's more Enterprise than Voyager.
It does just kind of look like a, like
the sporty, fast, you know, younger
brother of the Enterprise or sister.
If, if ships are women,
then, uh, then there
Uh, but yeah, love it.
Great to see Janeway, you
know, running a bridge again.
There's some of those close up
shots of her in the captain's chair,
just tight in on her face, and she
looks up in response to something.
It's like it's Kate Mulgrew come to
life over again, and it is so magnetic.
I mean, tiny little scenes like, uh,
in the first episode, they have a
conversation in the mess hall of Voyager,
and I'm not sure we'll ever visit
that mess hall again, yet the love and
care that was put into that set, that
virtual set, and the way they shot it
with fuzzy backgrounds and, and, uh,
and perfect lighting on our characters.
I, I feel like I could just watch
this show as a screensaver and feel
like I was getting my money's worth.
Um, I'm generally enjoying the story,
if the, the only thing that kind of
worries me is, is, is, At points, it
is so dire, like the situation has gone
so wrong and seems so irretrievable
by normal Star Trek standards.
Rob: Five episodes in!
Kevin: Yeah!
I'm afraid I'm not going
to believe the resolution.
Like, it feels like you can't
possibly write yourself back from
this in a way that is satisfying.
What got me, though, is in episode four
in Temporal Mechanics and episode five,
Observer's Paradox, when ultimately
they've made, improbably, a time machine,
and then that time machine is magically
restored so that it can fly back from the
Delta Quadrant, um, the question that the
characters, like, the characters all turn
to each other and say, This is impossible.
This is ridiculous.
We shouldn't be alive.
We shouldn't be home.
None of this should,
should be going this well.
And the fact that the plot is unbelievable
is itself becoming a plot point.
And, um, boy, if they manage to
pull that off in a satisfying way, I
will be very happy with this season.
But, so far, we're only a quarter
of the way in, and most recent
seasons of Star Trek, I'm feeling
very high a quarter of the way in,
and goes wrong in the second half.
So, we'll see.
Rob: Yes, to quote the dean
from Community, one of my
favorite shows, writing time
travel stories is really hard.
So they've really backed themselves into
a corner by, you know, the expectations
are high, they're going, you've thrown
some really big swings here, um, if
they don't pay off, um, there's going
to be, what other metaphor can I do,
there's going to be egg on their face.
Kevin: I think the high for me was when
they got stranded on future Solum and
they were like, whatever we do, we can't
interfere with with Chakotay's escape.
So steer clear of any prison cells.
And they're like, you mean like that
prison cell they get thrown in Chakotay?
And at that moment, I had the tingles.
I was like, this is a surprising,
well crafted story, and I have
no idea where this is going.
And I was like, that's good.
I am completely invested and completely,
not knowing what to expect next.
Rob: Yeah.
Getting back to talking about like
little character's development.
I like what they've done with Murf in
the way of trying to understand what he's
saying and his ability to communicate with
the shadowy figure through time and the
Kevin: a delicate balance, isn't it?
I feel like if, if they, if they
demystify Murf, if they managed to,
like, start being able to translate
everything that Murf says from now on,
it would almost break the character.
And I, I have to say, I would
almost be okay with that, because
I, I've yet to warm to Murf.
He is still so alien that I, I, I
can't quite relate or, or find a
way to care about that character.
Um, so if, if he suddenly did get a
universal translator, I, I think I
would be okay with seeing where that
went, but, they seem, uh, determined
to keep him alien, and so that delicate
thing of, we can translate him, but
only with the help of a whale and only
when he's underwater, and that's not
going to happen very often, so, he's
still going to be weird and alien, uh,
a deft, a deft bit of storytelling.
Rob: And a little bit of a tip
to the hat to Star Trek IV there,
so I was very grateful for that.
I loved, I loved
Kevin: Gillian the whale, yes,
Rob: Gillian the whale, exactly, yeah!
We'll see her around the galaxy.
I liked Murf in the water, taking
on a more, you know, uh, fish
or, you know, marine life form.
And that alien quality of being
able to translate Murf through
Gillian, I actually liked.
There was that air of mystery and
that still sense of wonder as opposed
to kind of what we got in Discovery
of like everything became magic.
So, oh, I need a gun and it
just teleports into your hand.
It's that common takeaway of the awe.
I like that mystery.
I like that tangibility of,
Kevin: Yeah, they're
not breaking the rules.
They are, they are respecting their
own rules, but finding a way to tell a
story within them, and I like that too.
Rob: Yeah, so, um, yeah, I did get that
sense of, okay, another thing's gone
wrong, another thing's gone wrong, and
it's, we're only five episodes in, and,
but I'm trying to remember, they kind
of played that card with season one as
well, there was a lot of obstacles and
problems and losing and missing and, uh,
yeah, they learnt through their mistakes,
and uh, those crazy kids are still
making those mistakes as they go along.
Kevin: I enjoyed them pretending not
to know what Starfleet is, or what a
tricorder is, when they met Chakotay.
Like, that was fun.
And, and Dal being unable to resist
talking to them, or coach them to
escape, that stuff did not work for me.
Like, there, there are moments where
they are, They're smarter than they
should be, and I like it, and there are
moments where they are dumber than they
should be, and I really don't like it.
Rob: Yeah, yeah.
Out of all of them, Dal's been the
hardest for me to warm back to.
Um, I'm glad Gwyn's now got that, uh,
that chip that the Doctor's done for her
so she's not playing that whole Yeah,
it's the danger of becoming a damsel
in distress where she's a lot more
capable than falling into that trap.
Kevin: Yeah, I agree.
Although, it seems somewhat
improbable to me that the
Doctor managed to create a time
Rob: Heh.
Yeah, just, uh, wave the hand away.
It's
Kevin: Wave, wave the hand, whatever.
It's a number.
Don't think about it
Rob: He can't pronounce Cerritos,
but he can create a time
machine keeps someone stable.
Kevin: I don't know about you, but
the voice sounds like Chakotay to me,
Rob: Ooh,
Kevin: the fact that Chakotay,
like Janeway has, has theorized
out loud that could it be Chakotay,
which says to me that it isn't.
I think we're supposed to, we're supposed
to guess that it's Chakotay, but I think
we're going to find out that it isn't.
And that again, puts me in this
place of, are we going to believe it?
Is it going to matter
to us when it happens?
Or will it be some like deus
ex machina that, that we can't
really, can't really care about.
Rob: Yeah, I think they're playing
their hand a bit too hard there,
so it's turned more from being a
red herring to being a red lobster.
It's really there going, there's
no way it's gonna be Chakotay.
So now my mind's expanding out.
And then they're going, are
they do a Daniels from the
final episode of Discovery?
And are they going to pull some
obscure character from the, uh,
from the canon of Star Trek?
And go, who was this person all along!
And you go, oh, that character who
appeared in three episodes back in 1984.
Sorry, 1987.
But yeah, well, that's the, the joy
we've got for the remaining 15, is
trying to solve it, figure it out,
and see when they, they reveal all the
secrets, and see whether they can pull
off this, uh, this crazy second season.
Kevin: It does really feel like this
fifth episode kind of, it's a moment
of, like, the chaos has subsided,
everyone's come back together, and
now we try and take stock and figure
out what needs to happen next.
I'll be interested to see if the rest
of the season is structured that way
in these five episode movements of,
you know, diverging chaos and then, and
then bringing it together to, to take
Rob: Yeah, they're definitely separating
our worlds, so, the big promise in some
ways at the end of last season was, the
crew with the real Janeway, you know,
with the pro, Protostar crew with the
real Janeway, but they've pretty much
poo pooed that straight away going, no,
no, no, you're not ready for that yet.
And so I was a little, uh, empathetic
with Dal there going, I want to hang out
with, I want to hang out with Janeway.
I'm there going, yeah, I want
them to be with Janeway as well.
But it's that
Kevin: They were obviously conscious
of that because they played that
moment exactly that way, um, yeah,
no, nobody but officers on the bridge.
And yeah,
Rob: So I go, oh, you want that?
You want that?
Oh no, we're going to hold that.
But we've got 20
Kevin: You're have wait.
It is a little unclear that I feel like
episode, uh, season one ended with kind
of this promise that Janeway had, had
pulled some strings and managed to get
them admitted into Starfleet Academy, and
now they're like Academy hopefuls that
are not quite yet into Starfleet Academy,
but they were taking classes of some kind.
I guess I'm saying is the
admission process of Starfleet
Academy continues to baffle
Rob: Yeah, is it like a summer school
or is it an academy to the Academy?
Is it, is it it's, it's very auroborous.
It's a, it's an academy
eating its own academy.
Kevin: I remember in TNG when Wesley was
applying to the Academy, they did, he
had to go back to Earth to take entrance
exams and there was studying for the
entrance exams and so maybe there is
some sort of summer study school on Earth
that people can study for their entrance
exams together at Starfleet Academy?
Maybe that's what we were seeing?
Rob: Uh, we're, we're doing
a lot of heavy lifting here,
Kevin: We are.
Rob: But that's what we're here to do.
We're here to, you know, fill in the gaps.
Kevin: Not the first time that Starfleet
procedures have not been entirely clear,
Rob: They just throw San Francisco at us
with, with spaceships and expect us to
just Oh, look, that's a really good vista.
Anyway.
Yeah.
So that they they've done it
Kevin: It did look beautiful.
Looked so nice.
Rob: San Francisco, the Golden Gate Bridge
still there and the Academy, you know, and
Starfleet right at the heart of the bay.
Oh, look, they've done it again.
Kevin: Converging on our topic of
dads, how did you feel about the
scenes on Solum with, uh, Gwyn
visiting her father and all that.
Rob: Yeah, I love that type of stuff.
I adore that type of stuff.
That's, yeah, that's like, you
know, that's kryptonite to me.
That just makes me melt.
I love a good, uh, redemption story.
I love a good father son or father
daughter or, you know, child and
parent, tension, tragedy, slash,
you know, Distance that can never be
solved, but then through the magic of
science fiction you can resolve it.
You know, it's a hokey
film, but I love it.
You know, Frequency is a
is a good one for that.
Kevin: I loved it too!
No one liked Frequency, but I came
out of that movie theater very happy.
Rob: Very much so.
Um, and so, you know, even, you know,
even Back to the Future, connecting
Marty with George McFly and what that
means, all that type of stuff is great.
It goes from a fundamental thing of going,
how were our parents or the people who
raised us, like, when, you know, they
were out when they were kids and would we
have been friends or how would we connect?
Kevin: Speaking of Back to the Future,
they do seem to be The storytellers of
this season are being forced to take a
stand about the mechanics of time travel
in Star Trek, which tends to vary from
episode to episode, movie, how it works.
And I'm sure this is not the last time
that Star Trek will contradict itself,
but this season, this story at least,
it seems we are being told that time
travel works like Back to the Future,
where the the, let me get this straight,
Rob: Do need a chalkboard?
Kevin: yeah, exactly, that changes in
the future would affect the present
or the past, but changes in the
present would create a new future
that don't flow back into the present.
So yeah, if you, if you fix Solum
today, it doesn't prevent the future
bad Solum from sending the Protostar
and the Diviner back to, uh, to
make everything happen as it did.
You can just create a new,
better future in parallel.
But if you go into the future
and mess things up, you can
actually mess up the past.
Which is a really, it's when you think
through it, it's a very strange way
to, to make time travel work unless it
serves the particular story that you're
telling as it did in Back to the Future
and as it does this season in Star Trek.
Rob: It's definitely become the
default in, sort of like, cinematic or
televisual, uh, time travel communication.
It was used in, you know, Avengers
Endgame, and there's a whole gag running
through it going, It's Back to the Future.
No, we'll never do Back to the Future.
Yes, it's Back to the Future.
That's now become, there's so many
different variations on what the concept
of time travel is within the world of
science, but time travel through the
Back to the Future eyes has been so
hugely influential and so tangible.
You see it explained so simplistically
for such a complex format that it's
bled into influence, you know, every
other science fiction style, um, format.
Kevin: Yeah, we got two pretty
compact speeches laying this out.
We had Gwyn on the comms link, which
I loved by the way that the comms
link froze, we've never seen a comms
link freeze in Star Trek before,
and it was used to great effect.
And I felt like was a realistic
technology glitch in the future.
So I liked that.
Um, but yeah, she ex, explains patiently
to Dal that the bad future has already
happened, that's why we're here talking,
but I am trying to create a new, better
future, and they get interrupted at that
point, but that by itself establishes
that there are some ground rules there.
And then we get the Temporal Mechanics
101 textbook, uh, lecture from Dr.
Erin, who, I don't know if you
know Rob, that is real world
science consultant Erin Macdonald.
She is the real world science
consultant on Star Trek these days.
And they created an animated, uh,
avatar for her to explain, uh, temporal
mechanics to our crew, which was
Rob: I was gonna ask you about that,
whether that was a, um, unique character
callback, or if it was something within
the behind the scenes of Star, of
Kevin: No, you're like a real,
a cameo of a real world person
in the future of Star Trek,
delighted her to get that, get that email.
Um, but that lecture with the
dominoes falling and sometimes you
need to push one of the dominoes over
yourself if you accidentally created
a gap in the chain was, was nice.
I was so captivated, like, I, I was
so following every moment of our
lecture, because I didn't want to miss
anything about how time travel works
in Star Trek, that I completely missed
the in between bits where they were
in montage, moving the Infinity ship
down to the bottom of the pit there.
So that when they finished the lecture
and they were at the bottom of the pit, I
was like, hang on, how did they get there?
I completely missed it.
Rob: Have to watch it again.
Have to watch it
Kevin: I did.
I had to watch it again and enjoyed it.
So yeah, anyway, The scenes with
Gwyn and her father, I, I agree,
they, they could have been saccharine
or too easy, but it's, it's,
it was really intriguing to me.
He is such a different person that
it raises a big question of how did
he turn into that villain that we
meet at the start of the series.
And I feel like that, it was so obviously
deliberate, that contrast, that they
know they're going to have to pay off
that question with an answer kind.
and I fear for Gwyn and, uh, her
heart being broken if her father
does change all over again.
Rob: It's tantalizing, you know, a civil
war and the, you know, tragedy, what it
shifts in people's minds either for good
or for, for, for bad and for someone to
be so good and so pure and so trusting
and so to not make those mistakes.
It's going to be heartbreaking
if they, uh, if the inevitability
of that, um, plays out.
Kevin: Yeah.
But you're right that by itself
it is, rewarding to see that that
character, you said redemption,
it's almost a pre demption.
He was not always so bad, once upon
a time he was a lovely person and
sometimes history changes ya man.
Rob: Exactly, exactly.
So, um, so this leads us on into,
um, the representation of fathers
within the, the Trek, Star Trek world.
And there's some daddy issues out
there and I think of anyone else
I'd rather talk to about this
than, uh, than you, Kevin Yank.
I don't know what that but,
let's get, let's get into it.
The good, the bad, the ugly.
There's a lot of, to unpack when
it comes to dads within Star Trek.
Kevin: There is.
It's overwhelming, and as you telegraphed
at the start, they go from the, the
great in Sisko to the horrible in Worf.
you know, you can still be a hero and be
a bad dad is what Star Trek teaches us.
You know, seeing that the, the topic
was too big to cover in, in exhaustion
here, I chose to pick an episode
and pick a single dad to talk about.
There are probably other episodes
that are really about fatherhood,
but the, or father son, father
daughter, uh, relationships.
But the one that came to mind to
me first was Star Trek: The Next
Generation, Season 2, Episode 14, The
Icarus Factor, in which we get to meet
Kyle Riker, the father of Will Riker.
Rob: Wow.
Kevin: Yeah, we, it's actually
surprisingly rare to, for us to get
to meet the fathers of these heroes.
Sometimes we meet the, the mothers, but
the fathers are often cloaked in mystery.
Like I, it took us a long
time to meet Picard's father.
And in season two of Star Trek:
Picard, I think we kind of all
wish we, we didn't in hindsight.
Rob: They, they should not have done that.
There's a great, there's a great arc,
there's a great arc within Voyager,
obviously, with, uh, Tom Paris and
his dad, and actually bringing, um,
his story arc into it, and playing
such a big part in getting them home.
And that whole, you know, those
moments when they communicate
and go, Tom, is that you?
Father?
And you go, oh.
But yes, we're talking about
Will Riker, and his daddy issues.
Kevin: Late in season two, uh, TNG
was just kind of finding its stride.
And this is one of the first episodes
I remember that there is basically no
science fiction element to this story.
It is pure character drama that just
happens to be set aboard a starship.
In this episode, Riker is Um, offered
command of a little ship, he'll have
to leave the flagship, but he'll get
a command of his own and Riker finds
out that this ship is heading off into
unexplored space and it'll take many, I
think they say months, if not years at
high warp to get where they're going, uh,
to investigate this remote, unexplored
sector of space from which there are
indications there might be signs of
life, but it could just be nothing.
So it's really flying into the unknown.
And so if Riker takes this, um, command,
not only will he be leaving his ship,
but he'll be leaving Starfleet and
the Federation behind, going off
on a long distance, long duration,
remote mission, a long time to come.
And so throughout this episode
he starts to make his farewells
as he starts to consider whether
to accept this offer or not.
There's some great Riker Troi
stuff, as you might imagine.
There's a tearful farewell where
Troi admits she can't read Will
as she normally can because she's
overwhelmed by her own emotions in this
situation, and it is really touching.
Um, I'd say this is a good episode to
watch if only for the Riker Troi stuff.
Um, there's a lot of Pulaski.
Dr.
Pulaski, it's revealed, is kind of an
ex, uh, ex flame of Riker's father.
They, uh, they had a flirtation
but never quite got together.
Along with Riker, we get to learn the
tragic backstory of Kyle Riker, that he
was on an ill fated mission, where the
entire crew was killed and, and Kyle Riker
was the lone survivor, and was obviously
quite traumatized by this, and Dr.
Pulaski nursed him back to
health, and the process, fell
in love with this heroic man.
Um, but they, the attraction was
acknowledged, but they could also
see that they were on paths in life.
Kyle was all about his career
and, and being in Starfleet and
had to, had to fly off, uh, and,
and, and broke Pulaski's heart.
And so, even as I buried the lead
here, Riker, um, welcoming his father
aboard the Enterprise as the mission
specialist who will be briefing him
on this mission into the unknown,
Riker gives him a very cold welcome.
He is not happy to see his father.
They have been estranged for many years.
Riker kind of blames his
father for everything that
was wrong with his childhood.
He tells stories about how growing
up in Alaska, his father wouldn't
even let him catch a fish by himself.
As soon as he hooked him, the father would
take the rod away from him he want him
to let the fish off the hook, and Riker,
uh, Riker kind of his whole personal
identity turns out to be tied up in the
fact that he grew out from under the
overbearing thumb of his horrible father.
And Kyle Riker seems like a perfectly nice
dude, like, yeah, I mean, he's an absent
father, but he wouldn't be the first.
And he's here with his hand outstretched.
He knows his son might be going into
danger in the unknown, and he asked to
have this one opportunity to bury the
hatchet and say goodbye, and Will is
having none of it, but Pulaski kind of
says, you know, he's not all that bad,
your father, I would have married him
in a heartbeat if he would have had me.
You know, these strong characters bumping
into each other and having feelings.
It's really dramatic.
This is all cast against the backdrop
of Worf feeling estranged on the ship
because it's the 10th anniversary of
his Rite of Ascension, but he doesn't
have any Klingons around to hit him with
painsticks to mark the occasion suitably.
And the rest of the crew notice that
Worf is, uh, grumpier than usual.
Figure out what's wrong and throw
him a painstick party in the
holodeck, and that's fun too.
So both the A and B plots are just
like characters feeling like, um, they,
they can't talk about their feelings
and ultimately being forced to do so.
Rob: Um, Kyle Riker of course played by,
uh, Mitchell Ryan, a jobbing actor who,
um, I know very well from, Grosse Pointe
Blank, which is an incredible John Cusack
film, uh, back in the late 90s with the
sort of like resurgence of John Cusack.
He did High Fidelity, Grosse Pointe
Blank, but, uh, Yeah, Grosse Pointe
Blank is like, uh, everyone focuses
on High Fidelity, but there's just
something about Grosse Pointe Blank.
He plays the dad of Minnie Driver,
and I think he's also has big
part in, um, uh, Liar, Liar.
He plays one of the, um, heads
of the law firm that, uh, uh, Jim
Carrey's character wants to be a
Kevin: Oh, yeah, that tracks for sure.
I, I, re watching the episode
yesterday, I, I did not remember the
actor from anywhere, but he seems very
comfortable with a camera pointed at
Rob: Yeah, he's, he's definitely
been around a long time and he's
one of those jobbing actors that
just was in everything and would
always have a, uh, a role appear in.
You go, of course, that guy's
in this and this and that.
So, um, that's always good in
Star Trek in the early days.
Well, Star Trek now going, let's get
someone in who knows how to be in front of
a camera, oozes charm and is just working
hard in this, uh, in this weird industry.
Kevin: I always remember this episode a
little unkindly because it culminates in,
uh, what we are told is an Anbo-jyutsu
match in, uh, in the gymnasium.
Riker and his father ultimately
cannot talk it out and decide
to have a martial arts match in
the gymnasium to work out their
Rob: That's how they do things in Alaska.
That's how they do it.
Kevin: Yeah, and they're coated from
head to toe in like laser tag outfits.
80s laser tag outfits.
And just as, as hokey as that sounds.
Um, and HD does them no favors, I have to
say, in the, in this situation as well.
Rob: If anything it does worse.
Kevin: They're masked so
they can't see each other.
It's, it's introduced as Anbo-jyutsu,
the ultimate evolution in the martial
arts, as if all the martial arts
culminated and merged into this perfect
form called Anbo-jyutsu, where they
stand on a platform surrounded by
padded mats and poke each other with,
uh, with sticks while blindfolded.
And, um, it is, is somewhat undramatic,
in the way that an 80s fight between
actors, without the benefit of paid
stunt doubles, is always going to be.
There's the, you know, the, the
wild swings that were obviously
never going to connect, were
practiced over and over again to
make sure they would never connect.
There's a lot of that.
It's, it's very Star Trek.
Um, like it's no different than
Amok Time with Kirk and Spock.
Rob: Look, I think, you know,
you've actually gone against
what you were trying to do.
You've sold it really well.
Um,
Kevin: Ha.
But yes, I, I always remember that
fight and go, oh yeah, that's the hokey
one where they fight in the gymnasium.
But that's just one scene at the end
and all of the drama and character
stuff leading up to it is really good.
Rob: Great.
Fantastic.
Kevin: There's a, there's a conversation
between Troi and Pulaski where they
talk about fathers and their sons.
Um, So, Troi says, Commander Riker and
his father are in the gymnasium about
to engage in a barbarism of their own.
Pulaski says, Don't remind me, it's
something of which I do not approve.
In spite of human evolution, there are
some traits that are endemic to gender.
You think that they're going to knock each
other's brains out because they're men?
Human males are unique.
Fathers continue to regard their sons
as children, even into adulthood.
And sons continue to chafe against
what they perceive as their
father's expectations of them.
It's almost as if they never
really grow up at all, isn't it?
And they, they both agree
that that's why they like men.
You know, it's, it's, it's Not great.
It certainly doesn't
pass the Bechdel test.
Uh, but, uh, but it is a charming kind of
80s TV analysis of fathers and their sons.
Rob: It is very much of
a, of a very binary time.
But, um, uh, but yeah, it's, it
doesn't two, uh, leading female
characters talking about guys.
Kevin: Yep.
Rob: Hilarious.
Kevin: Uh, what did
you want to talk about?
Rob: Well, you know, sci fi or fantasy
genre is such a, uh, a fertile ground and,
uh, for, you know, familial relationships.
And especially a recent trend
is the reluctant dad type thing.
So you've got the Mandalorian,
you've got The Last of Us.
Kevin: Yeah,
Rob: You've got, uh, you know, those type
of, you know, the reluctant dad taking
Kevin: I'm thinking of God of War
from PlayStation, also from the
same pedigree as The Last of Us.
Rob: Yeah, exactly.
Um, so I'm going to go the other avenue.
I'm going to look at sci fi characters,
Star Trek characters who embrace
fatherhood and worked really hard on it.
And we've got the perfect example
in my perfect representation
of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Let's look at the Sisko boys.
Let's look at Joseph, Benjamin, and Jake.
The three generations of Sisko's.
Kevin: That is unusual for sure that we
get the grandfather in the mix as well.
Rob: It's, it like, it's an odd thing.
Like you talked about, up until
this point, you'd only have, you
know, a mother figure come in.
Or if you did have a father come
in, you'd have, you know, Sarek and,
um, and Spock and their tension,
Kevin: I thought for sure you
were going to say Nog and Rom.
Rob: Well there's that as well, yeah,
or there's, know, Paris and his dad, um,
you can look at Odo and his relationship,
his father figure relationship
with the scientist who discovered
him, that type of tension there.
But, to bring in, uh, Avery Brooks as
this character, the, you know, the big
selling point was it's the first black
captain in Star Trek, which is a huge
step forward and all that type of stuff,
even though he didn't become a captain
until the start of season four, I think.
Um, but they took their time with him.
But that whole thing, that new dynamic
that they brought in, he was a dad,
a single dad, and he had to maintain
his job on a ship that he didn't, a
space station he didn't really want
to be on and keep and raising his kid.
I love the fact that Jake
doesn't go into Starfleet.
He wants to be a writer and a, uh,
a tenacious, awkward journalist.
This is the flip where he
goes, I want to be a dad.
I want to be there for my son.
So not only does he have to deal with
being the Commander on a former enemy's
space station, not only does he become,
uh, you know, the messiah slash prophet
figure within an alien race on the
verge of warfare, he's got to be a dad.
He's got to make sure he's, you
know, he's, his kid's grown up right.
Kevin: It's refreshing, isn't it, that
they made the decision that he would
be a good dad no matter what happened.
I feel like we never got the Sisko
is failing as a father story.
Would have been so tempting to tell.
In seven seasons when you're obviously
scraping the bottom of the barrel at
times of stories to tell, that they
would never have reached for Sisko's
failing at fatherhood, that it's
almost, it's baked into the formula,
the rule is, Sisko's a good father.
Rob: And even when he starts, you
know, seeing Cassidy Yates and Cassidy
and Jake get on so beautifully.
There's this, they work hard on their
own personal tensions and dramas,
but it's never a case of questioning.
Even though we've reviewed it
recently, a couple of episodes
ago, where Jake is missing his dad
because he's out on another mission
and he's, um, you know, not home
as much and all that type of stuff.
And Bashir does the whole,
you know, toughen up.
Ha!
Dad's saving, your dad's
saving the galaxy, alright?
He'll be back.
Um, and then you've got Joseph Sisko, who,
Kevin: Yeah, you throw Brock
Peters into the mix, if you please.
Rob: The great Brock Peters who went
from being a treacherous, uh, Star Trek
admiral in the Star Trek movies to being
salt of the earth dad living in New
Orleans and somehow running a restaurant
even there's no money in the future.
How
Kevin: Universal basic income, uh, Rob.
He's, yeah, he's getting those
Rob: He's getting those credits, you
know, it's, it's, it's Bitcoin, you
know what it is, it's Cybercurrency.
Kevin: I have to say, his, his performance
in Star Trek VI was so powerful that
to this day, I can't look at Joseph
Sisko and not be a little afraid
he's about to betray the Federation.
Rob: Well there's a whole, I mean it
gets a bit more complicated later on
because then, you know, the prophets, then
they were the reason that Benjamin was
Kevin: Yes, they possessed his
mother, and yeah, Sisko had a mother
that he didn't learn about until
Joseph was forced to, to come clean.
Rob: And there's big tension between and
Joseph around that, but there was always,
Kevin: tell you the tension I remember,
and, and this is like, really, I
feel like potent for our conversation
today is when, when Terok Nor or Deep
Space Nine is occupied by the Dominion
and Jake makes the decision to stay
behind as a reporter, and Benjamin,
uh, unfailingly as a good father,
grits his teeth, but makes the right
choice to respect his son's career and
decisions in life, and leaves him behind.
But then Joseph tells him, You made a
huge mistake, you gotta go and rescue him.
He's your son, goddammit,
what kind of father are you,
leaving him in enemy hands?
That is a great family drama.
It shows that, like, there's more than
one way to be a good father as well.
Rob: Definitely.
And yeah, finding that balance
of respecting your son as a, you
know, growing into a man and what
line of work he wants to get into.
And also he's had his experience in this,
in this world, in this conflict, and yeah.
Um, so over seven seasons we got
not only a great father son dynamic,
we got two, and we also got a
father son grandfather dynamic.
It was, really stacked it, and um, it's
a credit to Deep Space Nine, it's one of
the, the shining lights of many shining
lights on Terok Nor, uh, lit up from
this show is, you know, you know, Brock
Peters, Avery Brooks, and Ciroc Lofton.
The three of them do incredible work.
And it's a great statement as well,
of sort of like, this is a successful
black family, looking after each other,
doing well, in all three generations.
It's a great statement, and it's, it's
a shame that a statement like that made
in the 90s is something that should
be, you know, pushed now in the future
so much more that it's, uh, it's,
it's seen as some sort of an anomaly.
It's a sad state of how we've
gone back, you know, as a society.
Kevin: That Ira Steven Behr must
have had a good dad, you think?
Rob: I hope so.
I hope so.
It allowed him to have, you know,
to, to do a purple goatee and
wear sunglasses all the time.
So, so I, I, I hope there's no
Kevin: I think it is also, I mean, I
think you touched on it earlier, but
I'll, I'll, I'll complete the thought,
which is, if you're telling stories of
your first black captain, it behooves
you not to play into those racist
stereotypes of black men are bad fathers.
I think playing averse to that is a
way of honoring Star Trek's mission to
project a hopeful vision of the future.
Rob: Mm.
Kevin: And in the process, expose
that as the stereotype that it is.
A black man can be a great
father, and here we'll show you.
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it isn't done in a way that
it's like a, character that's
Kevin: not a perfect father.
He's a good
Rob: He's a good father and
that's, that's, that's the
big, that's the big thing.
He's a, he's a, he's a good
father, he's not a perfect father.
And that relationship dynamic shows
across all the elements of science fiction
and sometimes just kitchen sink drama,
which is works beautifully as well.
Kevin: Well, thank you for bringing that.
I thought it's probably going to be Sisko,
but we haven't really talked about this
in depth and I'm glad we did because,
um, yeah, it is, it deserves celebrating.
Rob: Definitely, and especially, you
know, having three generations of the
Sisko family presented so beautifully,
um, and to have Brock Peters come back so
regularly in the show was always a joy.
Um, and like you said, you know,
it wasn't all smooth sailing.
They brought out that tension and the
choices Benjamin Sisko made as a father,
and how Joseph Sisko questions his
decisions going, when you get to that
age as a father son can then look at each
other and compare notes of being fathers.
I love that.
And see played out in a sci fi show?
Ah!
Kevin: Well, we've got, we got 15
more episodes of Star Trek just
waiting for us to watch them, Rob.
Rob: Let's uh, let's watch another five
and then reconvene and talk about those.
Kevin: I wanted to take a moment to
just reflect on the bounty that has
been laid at our feet, all on one day.
It seems to me like the, the apparatus of
Star Trek fandom is ill equipped to deal
with this much new material all at once.
Never before in Star Trek history
have we, you know, been given more
than three hours of Star Trek at
once, let alone twenty episodes all at
Rob: Yeah, even when, even when Discovery
was on, um, season one was on Netflix,
they dropped it weekly, from what I
Kevin: Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, so this is, this is
the first time Star Trek has been
bingeable as first run television.
It's not safe out there.
I, in preparation for this episode, I
got spoiled on at least one thing that's
happening later in the season, cause
I clicked the wrong Memory Alpha link.
Rob: I've been spoiled
on one thing as well.
Kevin: Let's not talk about cause
it might not be the same thing.
Rob: That's what I was afraid of as well.
I'm there going, we oh, might
talking about something different.
Kevin: But it's really tough, like, even
those Netflix episode blurbs are fraught.
You read too far down the episode
list and you're gonna find out
things you don't wanna find out.
That has never happened
in Star Trek before.
So yeah, I feel, I feel for all the
other podcasters out there who are
working through the season at different
rates and trying to not spoil their
audiences and not be spoiled by other
conversations about this large amount
of Star Trek that's landed all at once.
Rob: Yeah, um, um, I think we made
the right choice of when we're trying
to decide how to, uh, to consume this
season, I think, you know, breaking
it up into four parts is a great way.
