Episode 63: Kids (PRO 2×16-20)
Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.
One last time for this run of
Star Trek Prodigy Season 2.
I'm Kevin, and with me as always,
Rob: I'm Rob, Rob Lloyd, here to chat
to you about all things Star Trek and
Prodigy as we say goodbye to Season 2.
Kevin: And potentially
for this series as well.
Like the cast led by Kate Mulgrew herself
are doing a great job championing the
cause of a third season of Prodigy.
And we'll talk about whether
that's something you and I would
like to see, but I, I don't know.
I fear the money just is not there.
Rob: The money's not there and, you
know, Netflix is notorious for, uh,
buy buy buying and creating creating
creating, but unless there is some
heavy numbers and heavy viewership on
a regular basis, they will cut you.
They will cut you like a bad, bad donkey.
Kevin: So I think that's how we're going
to be treating it here this week, is
this is the series finale of Prodigy.
If it surprises us and
it comes back, great.
We'll do it again sometime.
But, uh, but I think this is our farewell
to these characters, at least for now.
Rob: Yeah.
I think that's a good way to look at it.
That's good to, you know, be
realistic when it comes to our, uh,
our views of Star Trek on, uh, in
the new, digital age of streaming.
Kevin: And as the first series
centering around a group of kids, Rob,
you suggested that our final topic
for the season be kids in Star Trek.
There's several angles on that.
We'll figure out, like,
which one we want to take.
Rob: It's been a contentious issue,
especially the fact that Prodigy exists
has caused quite a lot of contention
within the world of Star Trek about, you
know, whether a show primarily directed at
a youth market is in some way underselling
Star Trek or, devaluing it as a commodity.
But how does the characters, you know, or
the role of children play within the show
over, you know, 60 years of existence?
Kevin: Well, those are a couple of
different questions, I feel like.
So yeah, we'll get into that in
the second half of this episode.
But first, as always, we, uh, we're
going to take a run through these
last five episodes of the season.
I've prepared a summary of each
one, and then we can, uh, talk
about the block as a whole.
Rob: So yeah, DJ Yank, spin that wheel.
Kevin: In Star Trek Prodigy, season two,
episode 16, Ascension Part II, Voyager is
struck by a temporal radiation torpedo.
The Protostar, the Nova Squadron cadets
and Zero work together to extract it
lured away, and uh destroy Asencia's
battle ship with a Boothby Supernova.
Jankom delivers a new body
for Zero just in time.
In episode 17, Brink, Gwyn and
the team infiltrates Asencia's
operation on Solum and rescues her
father with a couple of gadgets.
Gwyn splits the party to
rescue Wesley and Ilthuran.
Wesley reveals he planned his own capture
so that Asencia would create the wormhole
needed to send the Protostar back in time.
But he was betting on the
team staying together.
Wesley and Ilthuran escape, but the
Protostar crew are captured by Asencia.
In episode 18, Touch of Grey, Admiral
Janeway and Wesley Crusher mount a
rescue mission, risking Starfleet's
direct involvement in Solum.
Asencia stages an execution
of the crew by Loom.
The Doctor poses as Admiral Janeway,
Asencia just long enough for the
rest of the team to free the Loom
and rescue the Protostar crew.
In episode 19, Ouroboros, Part I.
Asencia opens a bunch of wormholes
to attack the Federation.
Voyager attacks the ships in Solum
orbit, while the Protostar crew and
Wesley blend science and fistfights to
create the wormhole they need to get
the Protostar back to where it belongs.
Gwyn overpowers Asencia using the
combined will of her people, and
the wormholes are merged, but the
Loom show up to spoil the party.
And in episode 20 Ouroboros, Part II,
Chakotay pilots the Protostar through the
swarm, Hologram Janeway finds a big enough
backup drive this time, the Protostar is
returned to the beginning, Wes visits his
mom and his baby brother Jack, Admiral
Janeway takes a well earned retirement,
until the synth attack on Utopia Planitia.
She pulls some strings and
Maj'el officially joins the
crew, which gets a ship, the USS
Prodigy, and Gwyn as her captain.
The end.
Rob: Well done, and I've thoroughly
enjoyed your, uh, summarization of each of
the episodes in the five episode blocks.
Kevin: Yeah, it's, uh, these are short
episodes, so on, on rewatch, they're
actually pretty easy to summarize
in a couple of sentences, and it's,
it's oddly satisfying to do that.
Rob: Yeah, it's some two parters, uh,
some standalones there, so how did you
find overall our tail end, our final five
episodes of, uh, of Prodigy Season 2.
Kevin: I think it was less twisty
turny than I was expected based on
our experience of the season so far.
It felt like a pretty, a pretty
straightforward downslope to the
finish line here, which isn't
to say it was unsatisfying.
I thought it was good, like everything
that they had set up in the season so
far, these five episodes were about
fulfilling those promises one by one.
And, I think the one big twist was
that this was Wesley's plan all
along, which I guess was inevitable.
We talked about that earlier in the, in
the season that he said he had put us on
the most, the one path that would work.
And so we were expecting some improbable
events and there were a few of those.
There was some good, uh, I almost died.
The operative word is almost.
You see, everything's going as it should.
Rob: And um, Will Wheaton did give
us one of the best cliffhanger
acting performances ever.
Where he said, I have no
idea what's happening next.
You just go, oh yeah,
that's what you train for.
To be in a genre TV show where you can
have a cliffhanger ending line like that.
Kevin: Yeah.
And he also gave the, I thought, somewhat
cringey line on the bridge going, Oh,
yeah, none of this is the big thing
that you need to be together for.
There are more terrible and awesome
things to come in a future season that
you'll just have to find out for yourself.
Rob: Ha ha ha.
I did like the line where they said,
you know, they have to stick together.
And he goes, well, we thought you
meant it as a metaphor where we're,
he goes, no, you literally need to
be in the same space altogether.
That was funny.
Kevin: Say what you mean, Wesley
Crusher, say what you mean.
Yeah, but uh, overall, uh, I
thought, straightforward but
satisfying for this last block.
Rob: Very much so.
It was a little bit paint by numbers.
They did build it up to the point where
there seemed to be insurmountable odds.
So, you know, they had the
big ships that could telegraph
everything because of Wesley.
And then, everything worked out,
but then Asencia then going, oh no,
that was the plan all along to find
out they don't actually have any
help coming, so that means this.
All that usual, uh, narrative stuff
that's come out of quite recently
within the, you know, when the Dark
Knight first came out, where the villain
was far too clever for its own good.
And then that happened in Skyfall,
and this, this common trait of going,
the villain knows everything and is
second guessing, triple guessing,
and putting everything in play so
every decision will be covered.
There was an element of that.
Kevin: Asensia was definitely played as
like mustache twirling evil by the end.
Not even by the end, pretty much from,
from the word go this entire season.
She was
Rob: much.
Kevin: Evil villain
English accent incarnate.
Rob: Yeah, no real, you know,
motivation behind it other than they
Kevin: it
Rob: this to happen.
Kevin: It was strange that moment when she
was, um, face to face with Gwyn and the,
the will of the people shifted and Gwyn
got the blue glowy power and Asencia lost
it and, at the start of the next episode,
when the Loom descended on the planet,
and she was now freed of her, like, power
madness, she said, What have I done?
And it's a little unclear to me,
just, what was in possession of her?
Was it, were we just supposed to
go, oh, this is absolute power
corrupts absolutely, in science
fiction form that, that, uh, once she
lost, she lost the will to be evil.
It wasn't super clear there, like,
what was, was that character ultimately
redeemable and under some influence?
Or was she irredeemable?
It's like it wanted to have
it both ways at the end there.
Rob: Yeah, it did seem like like her main
motivation was to save her planet and
so that sense of what she had planned
to save her planet was ultimately going
to be destroying her planet so is that
realization of all the work that she
had put in, um, was, you know, she was
hoisted by her own petard as they say.
Kevin: Yeah.
How do you feel about Maj'el?
Um, I felt like the season could have
worked just as well without her and
like she wasn't unwelcome by the end,
but I think I was waiting for that
puzzle piece to fall into place of, Oh,
that's why that character was written.
That's the story she was created to tell.
And I didn't really get that.
Rob: No, it did seem to be a
case of she needs to be there
because she needs to be there.
I mean she was, you know, very
intelligent, very capable, very
skilled as a leader and as a
creative thinker and all that type of
Kevin: she got some good, like, logical
Vulcan comedy lines of, like, that,
that certainly is a title, uh, and stuff
like that, so, like, I liked her moment
to moment, but I was missing, I was
expecting there to be a purpose for her.
Rob: Yeah, it does seem a little
short changed in that purpose,
as opposed to her just being,
you know, good at what she does.
Which is amazing, but, you know,
there's what's specifically about her,
and we never really got any deeper
than that, just surface level, um,
understanding of her as a character.
Kevin: Uh, Zero's back in a
sphere with legs, which I liked.
I was like, yay, that's the
Zero I like, and, you know,
Rob: Now with extra feeling.
Kevin: know!
I'm on board with that.
Uh, like, the path to get there
was a little twisty, but I
liked our Zero in final form.
That
Rob: Yeah, very much so.
That's what made him so unique.
And what we've been talking, talking about
all this season, sort of like shifting
him away from that and putting him more
into a pigeonhole of a physical form.
Whereas, uh, the joy of him comes out
of how odd, unique, and, um, you know,
how challenging he is to write for.
And that's where some sparks of
real brilliance has come from.
Kevin: So long as we're going around
the characters, uh, Dal, I thought they
brought that character around at the end.
The, the fact that for those last
few episodes, he decided, Gwyn,
I'm better taking orders from you.
You're making the decisions on this
mission, and then ultimately, you're
a more prepared captain than I am.
I'll be your first officer.
That turned the character around for me.
I found him enjoyable, charming,
and I loved the character by the
end, uh, thanks to that change.
Rob: It is that, yeah, that realization,
you know, he had that prediction,
or that, uh, you know, that insight
into the future where he would
never get what he had so wanted.
And in many ways, in the early seasons,
seemed like he was entitled to,
Kevin: Or felt entitled to anyway.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, he felt it, very much
felt entitled to that he, that for
whatever reason, it was just, you know,
he belonged there, and he owned it in his
own mind, so therefore he should get it.
But that realization of how easy he
trusts Gwyn, and how natural she is
in that position of leadership, even
though she's challenged and been
having internal battles with that.
That was a wonderful shift of
him going, I'm not fighting this
anymore, I'm embracing this.
Kevin: And I think for the intended
audience of the show, that is a
particularly powerful message that so
many of these like for young adults
adventure series have a protagonist
who, you know, is the chosen one
who is special by definition.
And therefore, is entitled
to everything they achieve.
Whereas by the end of this series, Dal,
who started in that place, recognized that
there is a, there is a learning process.
And yes, I still want to
be in the command program.
I still want to be a captain one
day, but I'm not a captain yet.
And a great way to become a
captain one day is to learn from
someone who's a captain today.
Um, I don't see characters destined
for greatness going through the hard
process of learning skills in fiction
for young adults much these days.
And I really enjoyed it here.
I'm glad that was the final beat for Dal.
Rob: Well yeah, it's, it's, it's
Storytelling 101, isn't it, you know?
Your lead character needs to
change by the end of that story.
They cannot be the same person they are.
And even within the confines
of a television format that
works against what a good, solid
character narrative is, you know.
Especially, you know, was it Rick Berman
was solely focused on resetting Star Trek
Next Generation so there was no story
arcs, no evolution sort of like you can
come in to Next Generation at any point
and you don't need to have any homework.
It was a big trait of 70s and 80s
television before, you know, shows
like Homicide, Life on the Street,
Twin Peaks came in in the early 90s
to revolutionize that storytelling.
And now it's commonplace.
But to have that arc of Dal of going,
I deserve this, to going, actually, I
need to earn this, and I'm not ready
yet, and Gwyn's cycle as well of going,
I'm not a part of this, I am a part
of this now, and I have to redeem
myself within my family's, you know,
atrocities, and then finding a place
in leadership that she wasn't sure she
deserved, or whether she has a right to.
It's, it's a beautiful arc for the two
of them to find their way, and they've
pushed so hard on them, the two of
them, Dal and Gwyn, as a connection.
Whether it's romantic, whether it's
just friendship, whether it's deeper.
And that kind of mirrors how
they've pushed Chakotay and
Janeway as well this season.
Um, and I think they've balanced it out
really nicely, that they didn't give us
any answers, uh, either, you know, for
the affirmative or the, or the negative.
Kevin: No, but there's something going
on with Holo Janeway and the Doctor.
Rob: Whee!
Well, there's stuff going on with
Holo Janeway and Chakotay, then real
Janeway and Chakotay, and then Hologram
Janeway and getting all flustered
around, um, hologram, uh, Doctor.
Kevin: Yes.
It makes a funny kind of sense, but
it's, it's certainly felt weird.
If nothing else, it served to divide those
two characters, that it's not just two
instances of Janeway on our screen, that
they are kind of independent personalities
with different goals in life.
And that was, that was a nice,
nice twist to be reminded of that.
Rob: And Hologram Janeway isn't
defined by her, you know, holographic
state, but it definitely creates
how she perceives the world and
how she perceives relationships
and how she interacts with people.
So of course she'd be drawn to the
doctor who's lived this life of
hologrammatic existence far beyond
what he is programmed to do, whereas
Janeway still in some way real Janeway
still sees him as the Doctor figure
that's built a trust and a friendship.
But yeah good to have those levels
within um Hologram Janeway, real Janeway
Kevin: Those beats of Holo Janeway,
like fearing for her fate as she
feels she'll have to be reset in
order for closing the time loop to
work and, and then ultimately being
rescued by the Doctor's backup drive.
It was, it felt like it just
barely fit in the season.
Like it was pretty crowbarred in
there in just two or three sentences.
Rob: Yeah, right near the end
just going, oh, and this as well.
Kevin: Yes.
But I'm glad it was there that,
especially if I went back and watched
season one and how that character
ended, if we did not have something
like that here, it would've, been
doing a disservice to that character.
Rob: Yeah, and sci fi does look on
that as, you know, who are we as a
person, or as a soul, or an existence,
a personality, a life in this world.
Um, we are, we are our memories.
We are the events of, that
has made us who we are.
And only through sci fi can it be explored
in a poignant, well it can be explored in
many different ways, but in sci fi there's
a particularly poignant way of doing that.
And even if it's crowbarred in
at the end, it's that beautiful
thought of, this is all who I am,
is my thoughts and my memories.
Kevin: For, for it to feel less weird.
I think what it would've taken
was like one extra scene back
when we were meeting Chakotay and
Janeway on the crashed Protostar
ten years into their time together.
And, like, I, I said how much I loved
seeing Hologram Janeway in those
scenes and the way they used her.
But the way they used her was
almost a, a ghostly presence.
Uh, there was a, there was not At
least to me on screen, a sense of a
relationship between the two of them.
It felt like Chakotay treated her
as a piece of the furniture or a
piece of equipment on the ship.
And, um, I don't know if there was a scene
and it just didn't fit in a show for kids,
or if I just interpret it differently
from the writer's intent there, but if,
if those couple of episodes of the last
flight of the Protostar had established
that bond between Holo Janeway and, um,
Chakotay stronger, then this would have
been less of a out of left field plot
element here at the end of the series.
Rob: Definitely, definitely.
It was a case of they had to play catch
up because especially that first episode
appearance of Chakotay was his journey
of his depression and how he had got
to that, you know, the mundanity of
his life and the acceptance of that.
Um, and adding in that other layer
of how that relates to Hologram
Janeway sort of like complicates it.
They need to keep it pure and focused
on that, but at the expense of finding
out that how that connection has been
changed, which is a, you know, could have
been a really juicy source of character
Kevin: Yeah.
And I think just the, the audience, the
intended audience of the show fights
against that storyline being done its due.
Because I feel like that is a, that is
kind of an adult idea of, you know, you're
a man, you're stranded for ten years on
your own with no hope of rescue, uh, with
the holographic recreation of someone
with whom you have a very close bond.
Rob: And a version of them at their prime,
Kevin: Yeah.
Yeah.
And what does that do to the
relationship that evolves in that vacuum?
Like, that could be a very
adult, very mature, mature story.
Not, not in a, in a sexual sense,
but just in a, like, a 14 year old
kid is not interested in that story.
Uh, so, so it didn't really fit
in this series, but gosh, there's
room for a novel there of, you
know, the lost decade of Chakotay.
Rob: That's a whole, yeah, that's a whole
other, like, B plot of a season, of a
character being stranded, and how they
explore that, but to have it, you know,
condense down into a 20 minute episode,
there's a lot of stuff that was skipped.
Yeah.
Kevin: Is there anything you wanted
to call out from these episodes?
Rob: Just that massive lean in,
especially, they've always had those
nuggets of, people call it fan service
or connection to the wider franchise.
Um, uh, but especially right at the
end, they're bringing it in hardcore.
Kevin: Picard season one,
Utopia Planitia attack.
Gosh.
Rob: Yep.
Yep.
Bringing in the synth attack.
Okay.
We, we're leaning into that.
Mention of Picard working
with the Romulans.
Um, you've got Wesley finally,
you know, having that reunion.
Yeah.
Meeting Jack and, and,
and there with, with Dr.
Bev.
But yeah, just to have that satisfying
connection that hasn't been done
in any of the live action series of
putting Beverly Crusher and Wesley
Crusher back in the same room.
Uh, well done, Prodigy.
Um, I did feel like it ended very much,
leaned heavily into, you know, we're a
Nickelodeon kid show of going, you've
got your own ship, they're all young
crew, you're all your own captains now.
Um, And you've got your hologram
and you're going off on a,
on a ship named after your
Kevin: Yeah, that is the
challenge of this entire series.
I feel like it was, and it was especially
potent right here at the end is this,
this clash of Drawing connections to
these mature stories that have been
told in the past for adults where,
where it's gritty realism and, and
we're trying to bring those connections
in here at the same time as, Oh, wow,
the Federation's just been attacked.
It's an existential threat.
What are we going to do?
Janeway's going to pull a few
strings and give this group of
six kids a ship of their own.
Um, and, and, it's just like,
whoa, the, the whiplash between
the, the realism and the fantasy
is, it, it barely holds together.
But I think for a willing audience like
myself, it rewards you buying into the
ridiculous fantasy with a fun story
and good characters and so, like, all
the while going, this doesn't make
sense, but I'm here for it anyway, was
the feeling I had going through it.
Rob: Yeah.
Same here.
We have, you know, this dark moment
happening, but go off on your adventures.
So would that be intercut in season three
of going, you know, synth attack and the
existential crisis of what we're, what
the Federation means and what humanity
means and all that type of stuff.
But hey, kids are getting into scrapes.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, a couple of other little
details that stood out.
Um, Janeway using her comm badge
as an explosive to blow open a door
that the phaser couldn't get through.
It was like, um, I saw someone online call
it a Starfleet standard issue bomb badge.
It's not a comm badge.
It's a bomb badge.
Rob: It's a bomb badge.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kevin: Um, the Doctor, this is something
that's been going on all season, but
I didn't notice it until the Doctor
was posing as Janeway and got shot.
And then after he was
revealed, he disappeared.
Like, he basically seemed to teleport
himself using his mobile emitter, which
is not how the mobile emitter has worked
in previous versions of the Doctor.
Like, if the Doctor turned himself off,
the mobile emitter would fall, clatter
to the ground, and someone would pick
it up and go, well, you're stuck now.
In this episode, he, he like,
disappears, and then reappears outside
with the rest of the crew going,
hey, our plan worked, let's go.
And then, I realized, thinking back,
throughout this season, the Doctor has
been winking into the middle of a corridor
out of nowhere, presumably thanks to his
mobile emitter that he's always wearing.
And so I guess without us being explicitly
told, we are being asked to accept that
the mobile emitter now includes a site
to site transport function of some kind.
Rob: It is definitely sticking
very true with how we get to when
we get to like the 34th century
or wherever they were in Discovery
where pretty much science is magic.
So this is the next phase of, uh, this
is the early stages of science becoming
magic, where now all the restrictions
that were established in Voyager can
easily be hand waved away by going,
eh, now you can teleport with it.
Kevin: Yeah.
The scene where they worked out the
science to figure out what wormhole
they needed to create to get the
Protostar back where it belonged
was some knee deep technobabble.
Actually, I'll say neck deep technobabble.
It was technobabble on
top of technobabble.
There was like, we can thread the needle
just like the needle in the haystack.
Like they were, they were piling every
metaphor they had introduced all on of
each other and then going, trust us.
Like.
Please accept all of these
concepts explain it in our world.
And both times I watched it, I kinda
gritted my teeth through that scene.
Rob: We're saying it with
enough conviction, so you
can believe us, trust us.
Look
Kevin: Yeah.
Like, there was something there that
I think it felt like, for me, someone
who's, you know, got an engineering
degree and thinks about maths a
fair bit in my job day to day, I saw
something there that felt like algebra.
That if you If you accept that ultimately
the universe needs to be in balance,
and there've been a lot of these
destabilizing wormholes, and there's one
unknown wormhole, it's basically algebra.
You solve for the unknown variable,
you for X, you add up all of these
other things, and, uh, they equal
the, the thing that you don't know.
But I'm pretty sure they could not
have said, it's algebra, uh, on
screen and had it be, uh, entertaining
and satisfying to a young audience.
So instead they piled all of
these technobabble metaphors
and it was ridiculous.
But I gotta say, Rob, I still liked
it better than the stupid triangle
puzzle at the end of Discovery.
Rob: Oh, look, you're preaching
to the converted right Kevin.
That's low hanging fruit
for me right there.
Kevin: Yeah,
Rob: But yeah, I mean, you
explained it better than they did
in Prodigy, but you just needed
a couple more metaphors if could.
If you could have said, you know, we play
a game of two halves, or she's good horse,
she'll go all day, or something like that.
Uh, and like in any other show, if it was,
like, an adult centric, adult centric,
I'm doing that in inverted commas, episode
of Star Trek, and they throw in the line,
it's algebra, then they'd go, okay, that's
alright, but because it's based at kids,
they're afraid the kids will go, wait
a minute, you're trying to educate me.
Get hell out of here.
Whereas adult Star Trek fans
will be going, educate us!
Educate us!
Come on.
Kevin: Speaking of fan service, that
last, uh, log entry by Janeway, she
quotes what I have gone back and
looked it up and discovered is a
deleted scene from Star Trek: Nemesis.
She says, an old friend once said,
we do not feel the passage of time,
but the presence of time within us.
We grow from what we leave behind
as we reach for what lies ahead.
She is basically half quoting Captain
Picard in a deleted scene from Star
Trek Nemesis where he and Data are
talking about people leaving the ship,
Riker and Troi getting married and
going off to the Titan and like things
that have not changed for so long now
changing, reminding us of our mortality.
It is a too long scene,
having watched it today.
It didn't need to be in that movie that
was already kind of flabby at the edges.
But, um, yeah, fun, fun to
bring it back for the fans here.
So, I asked you last episode, at
the end of this season, what is the
balance going to be between too much
fan service and just enough, like,
fresh accessibility for a new audience?
What's your assessment of this
series after, you know, two seasons
and a very clear finish line?
Did Prodigy provide the on ramp for Star
Trek that it set out to do, or was it
doing too much fan service this season?
Rob: I felt they got the balance, uh,
the balance was quite good in season
one, and for the most part it's been,
um, quite good for me in season two.
They've been definitely pushing the more
obscure references, and especially trying
to tie it now more to, uh, modern Star
Trek continuity as well with like Picard
stuff set up and all that type of stuff so
that's where it can get quite dense and it
seemed like there was a shopping list as
opposed to, and especially because it came
after the natural end of the season with
sort of like the villain had been defeated
and the timeline had gone back on track
and that montage of celebrating itself.
It's a it's a funny situation where
we haven't had a 20 episode series
of Star Trek for so long and now
we've got two seasons, so 40 episodes
of Prodigy which is more episodes
than most streaming shows get.
Kevin: Yeah.
It's, it's as much Star Trek
Lower Decks as we've had.
Rob: Exactly.
But it's that case of, it has a
montage at the end celebrating its
first season, and it felt nostalgic,
but at the same time, uh, too soon.
Kevin: Yes.
I agree.
Yeah.
I felt both those things.
Rob: Yeah, and then to then go do a
postscript very much in the way of Lord
of the Rings of another ending, then
another ending, then another ending, and
those endings ties to this part of Star
Trek lore and this part of Star Trek lore.
That felt seen very tacked on.
I just wanted to go straight from the
ending to the kids getting their own ship,
but, um, it was a brave move, interesting
move to go, no, let's start tying not
only 90s Star Trek and hints of those old
scientists Star Trek, but let's tie it
in with, uh, contemporary Star Trek now,
because that's been, that was a big gap
within Star Trek for such a long time.
90s connected with the 60s in some
way, the movies connected with each
other and tied itself back, even
in a fleeting way, to each other.
So everything was kind of self contained,
but then from Enterprise and then the
big gap, and then modern Star Trek has
been very hesitant to tie itself back
to what was, in the 90s and before,
but now Prodigy and Lower Decks seem
to be carrying this mantle of going,
we have to tie everything together,
um, more so than, you know, Strange
New Worlds or Discovery really did.
Kevin: I feel like they were trying to
do two things at once with this series
in the same way that, you know, the best
Pixar movies are said to be, they are a
great kids film, and there's a lot for
the parents in the audience to watch that
sails straight over the heads of the kids.
But it's deftly done so that the
fact that it's sailing over their
heads does not distract the kids
from enjoying the kids movie.
And I feel like that's what they were
shooting for here, is that the canon
connections, the payoffs, the fan service,
is there for the longtime Star Trek fans
who will be sitting with their, their
young child watching this show and that
there's something for both of them.
And that hopefully the kids go along with
the things they don't understand and are
largely oblivious to them, enjoying the
adventure and the characters, uh, that
they, that, that are written for them.
But the adults are sitting there going,
there's something for me here as well.
Uh, I'm not sure it's quite as
successful a balance as we get in,
in like a typical Toy Story movie or
something like that, but it was close.
What I would hate is that
this was to its detriment.
That ultimately, if we see this series
stopping after two seasons as a failure,
which I think is debatable, you could say
it's a very fulfilling 40 episodes and
that's how long it was supposed to be,
Rob: yeah.
Kevin: and it's successful for that.
But if we do see it as like they are
wanting to tell more stories, clearly,
and they may not get the opportunity, I
would hate to think that the reason they
don't get the opportunity is because they
spent too much time thinking about the
existing Star Trek fans and not enough
time writing for the new Star Trek fans.
Rob: Yeah.
Unlike, uh, you know movies that come
out and they have that bait at the
end to establish sort of like the
beginning of a franchise, um, which
never really works, you know, create a
self contained movie, and any films that
try and have that moment at the end of
going, this will lead into something
else, they're always doomed to fail.
And they have in many much recent times.
But for this it didn't seem like,
it seemed very much like Picard
Season 3 at the ending, where all
the fans were going, this is a setup
for Star Trek Legacy, let's get Star
Trek Legacy happening, but it didn't
seem like that within the reality
of watching season three of Picard.
It seemed very much a great send off
of hope going, the journey continues,
the stories continue, this world
continues, as opposed to going, this
is the show, this is the format, this
is where we want to go next, please.
You know, subscribe and support us.
And that's what I felt
like with Prodigy as well.
It seemed like this is the world
that's going to carry on, whether
we have a season three or not.
And it seemed to bring that sense of
hope, um, which I really appreciated.
I could see it ending at season two
and going, you know, all the adventures
that they're going to have that could
be, you know, in our imagination.
It could in, you know, novels
or comic books or whatever,
or just how we discuss it.
I love that future springboard of
going leave it open ended as opposed
to teasing for, um, something tangible.
Kevin: I'm not sure
which one I read it as.
It, at times I look at it and
it feels like the, the hopeful,
please renew us to be continued.
And then, I can also see it the way
you describe it, as the, the open
ending that promises these characters
have a future, even if we have to
make it up for ourselves in our heads.
Rob: It did seem very much like another
franchise with Star Wars, especially
with such modern, uh, annoyance with and
controversy about Star Wars with the,
uh, sequel trilogy and this 30 year gap
within continuity, and it's been left to,
left I do in inverted commas, You know, we
haven't had a Star Wars film since 2019,
but we've had a crap load of Star Wars TV
shows, and those TV shows have been left
to carry the burden of filling in the
gaps of that 30 year narrative continuity
from the franchise, and it seems like
Prodigy and Lower Decks have taken that
on as well going, you know, Strange New
Worlds is staying within its own, you
know, world and doing little tidbits
of connections to the original series.
Discovery did little bits
whenever it wanted to, but it
was the Michael Burnham journey.
Whereas Lower Decks and Prodigy have gone,
well, let's fill in those gaps so that,
that legitimizes in some ways, which I
do in inverted commas, Picard, and it
legitimizes all these other continuity
points that have come from modern,
Kevin: Yeah, it's a bit of
animated, here's what you missed.
Like, Star Trek's been off our TV
screens for 30 years, let's tell you
the stories that we missed during that
Rob: Let's pave it over, let's fill the,
get the Selleys Gaps to fill them all
together and that's all one big tapestry.
Kevin: Which I guess goes back to
Legacy and the fact that Legacy is the
opportunity to not repeat that mistake,
but to go, well, now in real time at
the real ages of the actors that are
still alive to tell the stories, more
or less, um, this is where we can
continue the present day of our future.
But seems like that is not going to
happen because the present day of our
future that they want to invest in
telling is the far future, uh, after
Discovery Season 5, which is where,
uh, Starfleet Academy is being placed.
I really wish Starfleet Academy was being
placed in the Star Trek Legacy timeframe.
I tell what, I can't say why other
than I feel nostalgic for that
time period, irrationally, uh, more
than I do for the 32nd century.
Rob: Well, cause for such a long
period of time, or over a decade or so,
the furthest possible point in that,
fictionalized future was, um, Voyager.
And then for such a long time, every,
you know, Enterprise went back in time.
Um, the Christopher Pine movies,
the Kelvin movies went, retold
the original series, then
everything has been pushing back.
Even Discovery went back to before the
original series and now Strange New
Worlds, um, it's that case of we had such
a long period of time where we didn't
get to experience that future within the
future and now they've gone even further,
Kevin: Yeah.
Starfleet Academy is going to be the
future now, but they have skipped over
those 900 whatever years along the way.
Rob: and that'll be left to
the next animated Star Trek
show to fill in those gaps.
Kevin: That's a lot of time to fill.
Well, let's talk, let's talk about kids.
Above all else, Star Trek Prodigy was a
show about kids in the Star Trek universe,
and we have had stories like that before.
Is that what you want to talk about, Rob?
Is like characters in Star Trek
series of the past who were kids?
Or do you want stories about kids?
Because to me, they're
two different things.
Rob: Yeah.
I was interested to see
where you were going by.
I was sort of like looking at how
have, you know, kid characters been
represented within the Star Trek world,
but I know there's been certain episodes
where it's, you know, how children
characters play a part of a plot.
Um, I can't remember the name of it, but
there's, you know, a classic original
series episode about kids, which is known
as one of the worst episodes of Trek ever.
Kevin: There's a couple, and
there's a really good one
and there's a really bad one.
I did watch them as research for this,
but I'm going to skim over them because
I think like yourself, I'm interested
in the ongoing characters who were
the, who brought the, the, the non
adult perspective to this universe.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: For completeness sake, uh,
the original series in, uh, season
one had episode 11, Miri, which
to me is an all time classic.
The girl Miri, who the, the episode is
named after it is a plot point that she is
on the verge of puberty and on her planet
the kids, are, live for centuries, but
the moment they reach puberty, they die
because of a, uh, genetic manipulation
experiment that took place on the planet.
It is good hearted and really solid
science fiction, um, some great Spock
McCoy stuff as they race against time to
find a cure, and it had as guest stars,
it had both the middle child and oldest
child of William Shatner guest starring
as, as non speaking parts and, um, the
actress who played Janice Rand, her
two kids played non speaking roles, uh,
as little, um, little urchins who came
out of, uh, uh, a, a air vent to steal
the communicators from out of the lab.
So, uh, it was, it was an
interesting production as well
because some of the actors got
their kids involved in the show too.
So Miri, if you've not seen
it, highly recommended.
That's a top 10 episode of Star
Trek, the original series for me.
And then at the other end of the
spectrum, season three, episode
five, And the Children Shall Lead,
which is one you were thinking of.
And that is like, group of
children, the parents have died
under mysterious circumstances and
they don't seem to care at all.
All they do is, is chant and, uh,
and do magic by punching their
fists in the air and, and they,
they take over the ship with their
mind control provided by this alien.
Uh, ultimately, uh, Kirk talks
them down by showing them video of
their parents and making them cry.
The end.
You know, it's, it's not great.
Uh, it's not even a very well
produced episode of Star Trek.
Famously, the alien was played by
someone who apparently at the time was
well known in pop culture as a real
life lawyer, but they brought him in as
a guest star as a like stunt casting.
And then he couldn't
act surprise, surprise.
So they covered him with special effects.
So you couldn't see him failing to act.
Rob: Fantastic.
That's what sci fi is for.
Kevin: Not a great one.
But I feel like Star Trek, the original
series largely treated children that
way as, as an other, a mysterious
force or a uncontrollable force.
They were the, the wild ones.
Like Star Trek at the time, the
Enterprise at the time was a submarine.
There was no place for regular
kid characters in those stories.
So when they did come in, they were
a, an intentionally volatile element.
Rob: Whereas later on, you know,
with Next Generation onwards, the,
the ships and the vessels were
houses to families, civilians.
Kevin: Not all of them, certainly
Next Gen leaned into that
Rob: Yeah, and, and uh, Deep Space Nine as
well especially, whereas Voyager went back
to that more submarine type thing and,
Kevin: Yes.
And I'm looking forward
to talking about Voyager.
Uh, Next Generation, if we're looking
for a sample episode about how kids
were treated in Next Generation, I chose
season one, episode 16, When the Bough
Breaks, where a planet of aliens who
can no longer have children of their
own abduct a group of children from
the Enterprise and try to negotiate
fair payment for the, the children.
And, uh, Wesley Crusher is abducted
along with that group and, and kind
of acts as the leader of the kids.
And Wesley Crusher is worth a whole
conversation in, in this context.
Is he kid?
Is he written as a kid?
Very debatable, I think, but the other
kids in this episode are recognizably
children who, who are dependent on
their parents to, to find their way in
the world, and when removed from their
parents are surprisingly adaptable.
Like, the kids are, apart from Wesley,
the kids are mostly very quickly adapting
to their new home and that is like the
tragedy of this, that the parents are
helpless and kind of in their gut know
that as long as they're cared for and
looked after, their kids will be okay
without them, and that is, that is
what makes it all the more desperate
that they want to get them back, um,
before it's too late, um, uh, kind
of the unwritten implication there.
But, but Wesley has grown up enough to
actively work for his own, uh, release,
and he stages kind of a, a sit in,
passive, hunger strike for the kids.
So yeah, When the Bow Breaks
is, is an interesting one.
It, uh, it's one of the few episodes
where I feel you feel you see real
children on board the Enterprise.
What do you think?
Is Wesley a kid?
Is Wesley effectively written as a kid in
the Next Generation of what you've seen?
Rob: It's always a big debating
point when it comes to specifically
the genre of science fiction
about children in a sci fi show.
And the instinct from producers
or creative types are always the
justification of why they bring a
child character in is for someone, and
they do this in inverted commas, for
the young viewers to associate with.
They're the same age as me, therefore
I will live vicariously through them.
But through most cases, most
cases, It never works out.
So, you know, bringing in young Anakin
Skywalker in, um, Phantom Menace
Kevin: Hmm.
Rob: was a detriment to the actual
legacy of that character, and they
had a lot of, an uphill battle to,
you know, to get to some point of
connecting with him later on, um.
Uh, in Doctor Who there was a
character in the 80s called Adrick
who was a mathematical genius who
travelled along with the Doctor.
It didn't help that the actor who
played him wasn't really an actor.
He just like, he, he performed
like he just walked onto set
and they just kept on going.
Um, there's always those cases
of do we connect with them
because they're children?
Kevin: Well the characters you've
named all have one thing in common,
is that they weren't just kids in
the reality of the world, they were
exceptional in their abilities.
They were special kids.
Rob: And Wesley is as well.
Yeah, they do make that mistake
of going, if you're gonna
have a kid, they have to be
Kevin: They have to be a power
fantasy for children of that age.
Rob: Yeah, so that was always hard for
me to connect with not only because,
as a kid, you don't connect with,
yeah, it seems to be only adults
think that kids connect with kids.
I mean, I connected with Luke Skywalker
because I saw him as a grown up,
despite the fact that he was played,
you know, he was a 16 year old
character played by a 21 year old.
But for me, as a five, six
year old, he was a grown up.
Um, And so you connect with
the adults because you're there
going, that's where I want to be.
I want to have that freedom to do all
that stuff as opposed to a kid where
you have to go with the realities
of, oh, I have to be in bed by nine.
I don't want to be in bed by nine.
I'm on a spaceship, goddammit.
Um, so, never really connected with
Wesley in that sense because he was,
he was, we were told he was exceptional
to begin with, whereas when you go
to, you know, my show, Deep Space
Nine, not only do you have, um,
Jake, but you also have Nog, as well.
So, and, the great thing about
Deep Space Nine as a ship, it's
not purposely built as a ship.
Um, like, it's not a ship, it's a
space station, so the promenade,
Kevin: There a natural place for
those characters and the stories
that they naturally inhabit.
Rob: It's a living environment, it's a
social environment, it's not, you know,
on the bridge, or down corridors that
seem like a, uh, a submarine, as you said.
And Jake not taking the path
of falling into Federation.
He's wanting to be anything, he wants to
be a civilian within the Federation world,
which is an incredible sight to see.
We'd never see that.
We only have civilians come and go, but
our stories are always told from the
perspective of people within Federation.
Nog as well.
Him going against his culture and his
upbringing to go into a, a line of
work which doesn't really accept, be
the first of his kind and how those
characters evolve over seven years.
They grow up, we literally see them
grow up and they stayed with the show
for that entire time whereas Wil was
only there for what, the first four
Kevin: Yeah.
That sounds about right.
And then, and then became
a recurring guest star.
I would say Wesley became
interesting when he became, when
he went to Starfleet Academy.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: And he kind of entered the,
entered relevance in his age for the
military organization that is Starfleet.
Like the moment someone has a place in
stories about Starfleet is when they join
Starfleet Academy and like become a cadet.
And that is when it felt
like Wesley finally fit.
He had a place in this, this
world and these stories.
And up until that point, I don't think the
problem was that they were on a starship.
I think I can accept and buy into the
reality that the Enterprise D was a ship
with places for families and children.
We got hints of that with Alexander, like
Worf's son Alexander, being in school.
Rob: Poor Alexander!
Kevin: Poor Alexander, yes, he needed
a better father, that Alexander.
But I have much stronger memories
of Alexander being a kid in stories
about kids in kid situations than
I do of Wesley, even though there's
some crossover in their age.
We saw, we saw Alexander at around the
same age as we saw Wesley earlier in
the series, but early in the series,
they just either were unwilling or
had not yet figured out how to tell
stories about that period in life.
Rob: hmm,
Kevin: And by Deep Space Nine and arguably
by late Next Generation with Alexander,
they had started to figure that out.
The writers had created space in their
creative universe for those, those
kinds of stories of, of kids and young
adults, and the proof for me in that
is Naomi Wildman in Star Trek Voyager.
Rob: I was gonna bring up Naomi.
Kevin: She is freaking awesome as a
character and in research for this
episode, I watched every single appearance
of Naomi Wildman in Star Trek Voyager.
She's in 19 episodes of that season,
so I have been watching a lot of Star
Trek Voyager on, on double speed this
Rob: 19!
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: Same actress, for…?
Kevin: She appears first as a,
as a baby, like in her birth.
There is one episode where she is a,
a toddler, where, uh, her function
in the story is to be put to bed by
Neelix, and Neelix is going through
some stuff, and it affects him as he's
trying to tell her bedtime stories.
But, uh, well cast, uh, very good
actress, and then from her third, from
the character's third appearance, it's
the same actor all the way through.
Rob: And is that third appearance, like
when she is introduced to Seven of Nine?
I seem to remember.
It's pretty much when that new actress
starts, she's introduced to Seven
of Nine and that connection stays.
I don't know if that's correct or not.
Kevin: Yeah, that's right.
It's, uh, it's an episode called Once
Upon a Time, Season 5, Episode 5, and
there's a, there's a lot of, uh, Naomi
watching storybooks in the holodeck
about, about Flotter and Trevis, and
these are like, these are holo novels
for kids that we get the impression
all the Starfleet crew watched the same
stories growing up because they all
know the stories and it's really fun.
But there's this, this scene in the mess
hall where she is talking to Neelix,
who is her godfather, and Seven of Nine
enters the room and she freezes and
she's like terrified of the Borg drone.
Uh, it, and it's great.
Like, that is, from her very first
appearance, that actor was nailing it.
Whoever cast that young girl as,
as Naomi Wildman, masterstroke
they, whoever found that girl.
Rob: Watching Voyager, the connections
that Jeri Ryan as Seven of Nine has with
the crew members depends on their success.
Like her connection with Paris, eh, her
connection with, um, B'Elanna, eh, but her
connection with the Doctor, incredible,
her connection with Janeway, incredible.
But the most powerful connection is I
always went, oh, Seven of Nine and the
Doctor, great, that's it, that's it,
but that relationship, that was a happy
surprise for me, Naomi, Naomi Wildman and,
uh, and Seven of Nine, that connection,
man, that was, that was it, that was
Kevin: the,
Rob: Voyager really started to fly.
Kevin: In that episode, Seven of Nine
kind of walks up to the table and asks
if she can sit down at Neelix's empty
seat, because Neelix has gotten up, and
Naomi goes, yes, no, uh, the seat's taken,
you can't sit here, and, and she leaves,
so they, they are barely introduced.
Two episodes later is when, uh,
she is following, uh, Seven through
the corridors and Seven turns
around and says, Naomi Wildman,
subunit of Ensign Samantha Wildman.
And it's just the, the, the
relationship is there from that
Rob: Yes,
Kevin: It's so good
Rob: Jeri Ryan saying the full name
of Naomi Wildman is, is music to ears.
Kevin: Great supercut that has on
YouTube that has every, every time
Seven of Nine said Naomi Wildman back
to back, and it's surprisingly long.
Um, But it's a good watch.
Um, yeah, her connections are
basically to her mother, which,
uh, who is a guest star of her own.
We see her a few episodes before,
um, Naomi is born and she comes
and goes throughout the series.
She is less present than Naomi herself.
Um, Naomi is usually in stories with
Neelix, who's her godfather with
Seven of Nine, as we just spoke about.
Uh, and that's pretty much it.
She's like.
Pretty quickly becomes this character
for Neelix and Seven of Nine to
bounce off of in different storylines.
And, and Naomi, what she wants more than
anything in the world is to eventually
become the captain's assistant.
So she looks up to Captain, she,
she wants to be a Janeway someday.
Like so many young girls
who are watching this show.
And in that sense, I feel like they
wrote a realistic character, with
realistic stories about themselves
at that age in this world, which is
what they failed to do in Wesley.
If they had, had the skill or foresight
or wherewithal at the time to write
Wesley as someone young who looked up to
Captain Picard, but, as we know, Captain
Picard didn't have any time for the kids.
That would have been
an interesting dynamic.
But instead, they kind of, for
whatever reason, they were not in a
position to tell stories of someone
that age in Next Gen, but they, they
proved they could do it, uh, all
these years later in Naomi Wildman.
Rob: It's always a bit of a handicap as
well if you lead with the fact that this
character is super special and super
smart, whereas the best way to connect
with a character is just to show them
as unassuming as possible, and then
you find out what's so extraordinary
about them, as opposed to being told.
You're pretty much told straight
away, Wesley is smart, he's
a super genius, all right?
And you go, well, I don't care.
Whereas with Naomi, She's just, you
know, an ordinary kid and that makes her
so much more endearing because there's
no pressure put upon her, no handicap
in any way of just, you know, let's
just see her for who she is and then
we can find what makes her so special.
Kevin: There was a note on, uh,
Memory Alpha about Naomi Wildman
that reminded me of something.
And I'm just gonna read
this, so all credit to the
contributors to Memory Alpha here:
As with other child characters
in Star Trek, Naomi Wildman
appears to age rather quickly.
She's seen at age 2 in 2374, appearing
to look about 6 years old, and then
later seen from 2375-2378 at ages
3 to 6 to look about 10 years old.
However, unlike other such characters,
an on screen explanation was provided.
Her Katarian heritage caused her to
age more rapidly than a human child.
And I was like, huh,
well, that is interesting.
But what other child characters
were they talking about?
And I went looking and I
discovered Molly O'Brien.
What are your thoughts Molly O'Brien?
Rob: I am looking at an image of Molly
right now, um, cause all the work
that they did with Jake and Nog, they
kind of skipped for poor old Molly.
They gave her one episode where she
goes and ages incredibly quickly,
um, and then she's taken away.
So Molly is dear, dear
old afterthought, O'Brien.
Kevin: Poor Molly.
Um, quoting from Memory Alpha again here,
Molly O'Brien was mainly seen on screen
as a baby during the fifth season of
The Next Generation, but inexplicably
was old enough to talk when recast with
Hana Hatae during the sixth season.
Later that year, Benjamin Sisko stated
that she was three years old in The Negus.
By the second season of Deep Space Nine,
which aired simultaneously with seventh
season of The Next Generation, her age
was explicitly stated to be four, and
towards the end of the season, five.
By the sixth season of Deep Space Nine,
Kira Nerys said she is eight years old.
Molly's age appears to be an example
of a continuity error known as
soap opera rapid aging syndrome.
That, uh, writers really love to tell
stories about adults having a child.
And then they really want to rush to
being able to tell stories about that
child experiencing teenage angst.
And so they really rush those kids
through the boring childhood years.
Rob: Yeah, It's a regular thing
on TV, like we've talked about.
There's, you know, Modern Family is a
show that I absolutely adore, and the
first two seasons, uh, uh, Mitch and
Cam, uh, of course, adopted a child
from overseas, uh, Lily, and so for
the first two seasons, it's a baby, and
then the producers go, well, we can't do
anything with this baby, we can't have
it age naturally, so the next season,
boom, without any explanation, without
any talk, she's like, seven or eight.
Ha, ha, ha.
So, well, now we can have her
talking, now we can do some
interesting stories that way.
We don't have the time to actually
see her age, you know, in real
life, so let's jump ahead.
And Molly is again one of those, well,
we don't want her as a baby all the time.
Let's make her interesting.
Kevin: Molly O'Brien
really isn't a character.
She's, she's mainly there
to affect her parents.
Rob: Yeah, and I mean, there's,
the actress who played her later
on, uh, she's been interviewed, I
think she was interviewed from, uh,
for the documentary that was done.
An she speaks about it so highly
and she loved being on the show
and she was treated so beautifully
by Colm Meaney and Rosalind Chao.
Treated her so beautifully and she
had such a great time being on the
show as a child actor, which was
great, but, yeah, they, they didn't
do anything with her as a character.
Like you said, she was there just
to serve a purpose for the O'Briens,
whereas Jake and Nog had their own
journeys and we saw them grow when we
saw them go from children to know young
adults, which was all the more powerful
Kevin: The thing I, I rediscovered about
Star Trek this week was Voyager often
gets flack for being just more Next Gen
at a time where the, the franchise was
running out of fresh creative ideas that
it hadn't done before, and I think what,
one of the things that Voyager does not
get enough credit for is the creation
of an interesting, charming, uh, fully
realized, young person character on a
starship and Naomi Wildman is awesome.
I really enjoyed my time
with the unreleased Naomi
Wildman box set this week.
I recommend it highly.
Rob: Oh, I could go back and just
do a supercut like when uh, Harry
Potter and the Half Blood Prince
was about to come out as a movie,
I re read the book, but only read
the Harry and, uh, Ginny chapters.
Cuz that was the best part of,
yeah, cause it's an incredible book.
I hate the, the film version of it.
But the relationship between
Harry and Ginny and how it
develops in that is great.
So, doing a, um, Naomi
Wildman cut of Voyager.
I think it was, yeah, it's always a
show that was compromised by, what
came before and how it wanted to
get back to a, it tried to be daring
and bold, but was always hamstrung
by them being, playing it too safe.
But there are moments of genius.
So with Seven of Nine, with Naomi
Wildman, with some of those episodes,
like we talked about Equinox, where
they do seep through and lean into the
arc structure of what the story could
do of returning to these characters.
Um, that's where.
Voyager can be remembered fondly
and actually, you know, be
praised for doing something that
no other Star Trek has done.
Kevin: Well, Rob, if there's one
thing that you criticize again and
again, whenever we talk about Voyager
is the fact that it did not take
the opportunity to have the longer
story payoff and be affected by
the smaller week to week stories.
And, I have to say that one place where
they couldn't escape doing that was
by casting this young person as Naomi
Wildman, because over the course of the,
uh, four years that she was on the show,
that actor visibly aged, and so looking,
looking at her in her first episode and
her last episode, it is obvious she has
grown up, it is obvious she has been
changed by her time on the ship, and it
is so satisfying because there was so
little of that in the rest of Voyager.
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: We even get to see a grown up
Naomi Wildman in that episode, Shattered,
Rob: Which we talked about before.
Kevin: Yeah, where Chakotay is, is
navigating the ship that is split across
multiple time frames, and one of those
time frames has a grown up Icheb, speaking
of child characters, we could talk about
those Borg children as well, I think
we can just agree that poor, poor Icheb
was done a dirty by, Picard season one.
Rob: Hashtag justice for Icheb.
Kevin: Yeah, but we get to see grown
up Icheb in a, in a happier future
for him on board the, the, uh, Voyager
that, that didn't make it home.
uh, and Naomi Wildman.
Rob: Um, yeah, that was, when I went
into watching Voyager for the first time,
obviously there was a lot of negativity
that would come towards it, especially
when I first watched it years ago.
It's got a new renaissance now,
which I'm grateful for, but those
things came up going, oh, it's dull
at the start, it doesn't really
kick off until Seven of Nine there.
But no one told me about Naomi Wildman, so
when she showed up, that was a revelation,
that was the best surprise I ever got,
going nobody ever told me this, why aren't
more people talking about Naomi Wildman?
She, yeah, she should be talked
about on, you know, on the same
level as some other, you know,
supporting characters within the show.
Like you said, 19 appearances, and
we've seen that journey grow, especially
once they cast that young actress
and she stayed with it for so long.
Kevin: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there you go.
I think those are, those are the main
kids that I could think of in Star Trek.
Rob: Yeah, there are other little, you
know, the children of Tom and B'Elanna
and, um, and, uh, other, you know, we
talked a little bit about Alexander,
but when it comes to, you know, fully
developed children characters, um, they
are few and far between, but I'm glad
we've been able to shine a light on, um,
you know, particularly, I was hoping we
would turn into, uh, our appreciation post
of Naomi Wildman, and it certainly did.
Kevin: She is the best kid in Star Trek.
I think we can agree.
Rob: I will agree with you on that.
Naomi Wildman is the best
kid in Star Trek, period.
Kevin: Where's Naomi Wildman
in season two of Prodigy?
Rob: Exactly!
Kevin: She would've fit right in!
in
Rob: Yeah, where's, you know, if
they ever, you know, they'll never
do it because, um, Matalas has moved
on to be signed up with Marvel.
But yeah, if they ever did Star
Trek Legacy with, uh, Captain
Seven of Nine, come on Naomi.
Kevin: Yeah.
No longer captain's assistant.
Make her a captain.
Rob: And if that actress is still around,
I mean, they did it with Lower Decks, they
brought back the actress to do the voice
of the character she did in the original
Lower Decks, they can find the original
Nomi Wildman and she'd be awesome.
Kevin: She would be awesome.
All right.
Well, that is my hope for the, uh,
hope against hope for season three
of Prodigy that, uh, it might be an
excuse to bring back Naomi Wildman.
Rob: Let's bring on the Wildman!
Thank you for this, this has been a joy.
Kevin: Yeah, well, we're gonna
take a break now for a little bit.
I don't know, we may come up with
some idea for some, some episode in
the meantime while we wait for our
next, uh, influx of new Trek, but if
not, uh, we'll see you later in the
year for Lower Decks season five.
Rob: Bringing it home.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: We seem to be saying goodbye
to so many Star Trek shows.
Kevin: I just hope
Starfleet Academy is good.
It's got, it's a good start.
I think the signs are good,
but, uh, you never know.
Rob: photo?
Kevin: Yeah.
The cast photo?
Yeah.
Kicking
Rob: at, uh, Paramount Studios?
With, uh, Paul Giamatti as the
villain up the back, giving us
the rock and roll devil horns.
Kevin: Yeah.
I hope it's good.
Rob: And he's right
next to Robert Picardo.
I'm going, course, Picardo and Giamatti
would just find each other and go,
we are going to be friends forever.
Kevin: The photo looks like a
bunch of, um, you know, a bunch
of fresh faces to Star Trek.
They're a bunch of nobodies to me at this
point, but I look forward to meeting their
characters and I hope, I hope they, uh,
they are yet another addition to this
universe that keeps bringing me back.
Rob: There's been, they've been wanting to
do a Starfleet series like for 40 years.
Kevin: The they've tried and failed
again and again is the only thing
that has me worried about this series.
Is that apparently the difficulty
level is high, and it's failed
before, so how is this one going
to overcome whatever challenges
have, uh, sunk those past attempts?
Um, but the pedigree is good.
I, uh, I just, I hope
they can pull it off.
Rob: Yeah, when you've got Picardo,
you've got Giamatti, and you have
Academy Award winner Holly Hunter.
That's a, that's a good starting lineup.
Kevin: Let alone a, a,
a stacked writing room.
Rob: That's right.
Kevin: Alright, well, see
you around the galaxy, Rob.
Rob: Thanks so much for your time, Kevin.
You keep out of trouble
and we'll see you soon.
