Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin,

Rob: and me Rob,

Kevin: and we are back after
a long trip through the

wormhole from, uh, what was it?

Star Trek Discovery Season 5?

Is that the last time

Rob: It was Star Trek Discovery, the
end of that entire show, so we had a bit

of a break waiting patiently for Lower
Decks to return for its fifth season.

Kevin: Yeah, and we're back
with a, a, a double header.

They started us off as, as Star
Trek seems to do these days,

with two episodes and one night.

So we're going to, we're going
to give them the same treatment

here on Subspace Radio.

We're going to be talking
about Lower Decks season five,

episode one, Dos Cerritos, and
episode two, Shades of Green.

Rob: Damn right!

Kevin: How's it feel to be
back on the Cerritos, Rob?

Rob: It feels good!

It feels good to be back on the Cerritos.

It was a little bit of a uh, re
adjusting for me to get back into

it because we have been doing um,
Prodigy and uh, and Discovery.

Whereas, yeah, so that two very different
styles of show but with Discovery

as well, it has a very self serious,

Kevin: Yeah, sure is, it's a big contrast.

Rob: Yeah, and there's that fun
element to Prodigy, but it does

have a serious, uh, story as well,
dealing with the time travel elements.

So to return to the, uh,
flippant nature, in some ways,

Kevin: Even for Lower Decks, this
started light and fluffy for me, because

we had gotten into some lore and some
heavy character arcs at the end of

Season 4, and so this felt, to me,
surprisingly light, in a pleasing way.

Rob: Yeah, last season very much so, right
off the bat got us straight into, like,

uh, that broad sweeping story arc as well.

But yeah, with this it was just, you
know, two very much self contained

episodes with a little bit of, uh,
overlapping of, um, Tendi's story,

definitely, and, um, and maybe some
ramifications of what happened in episode

one carrying on over to episode two.

Kevin: Yes.

If only in the form of stubble on,
uh, Boimler's face, it seems like that

might be the runner for the season.

Rob: Looks like it might be,
uh, the slow, slow development

of, uh, Boimler's facial hair.

Kevin: Uh, yeah, let's,
uh, let's jump into these.

The, the, the topic we, we picked out
that we're going to be talking about

in the second half of this show is, uh,
meeting yourself, which the crew of the

Cerritos did in our first episode here,
and we'll talk about a few other examples

in Star Trek history of characters more
or less literally meeting themselves.

Rob: And we had to be a bit tricky
as well because we've already done

stories dealing with the prominent,
uh, Uh, alternate universe in Star

Trek, which is the mirror universe.

We've already looked at that.

So this is other variations of, uh,
you know, the characters that we see

that is not mirror verse version.

Kevin: Absolutely.

So, in Dos Cerritos, we've got
kind of an AB structure here.

The Cerritos gets sucked into a rift
and meets an alternate Cerritos, or a

fake Cerritos, or a bad Cerritos, if you
will, and generally just don't get along

with their slightly different selves.

And meanwhile, Tendi's on Orion, uh,
working to fit into that pirate culture

as she earns her way back to freedom
so that she can return to Starfleet.

Rob: And her moral stance now as
a Starfleet officer and how that,

uh, clashes with the Orions', uh,
approach to, uh, living life and

pillaging as much as they can.

So the pirate, the pirate life of the
Orions, uh, does clash quite severely

with the, uh, the upstanding moral
character of a Federation member.

Kevin: I feel like Lower Decks
has completely dominated the

unexpected reversal of attitudes.

But when it's revealed that the
reason these pirates are being so

piratey around Tendi is that they
believe Tendi Earned her freedom to

go and live out her non pirate dreams
by being a really great pirate.

And so they're like, we have to
be as nasty and violent as we

can in order to earn our freedom.

And Tendi's like, no, no, no, we
can, we can do it another way.

And so she seems to have recruited
a merry band of, of gentle pirates

by the end of this first episode.

Rob: And Tendi having to go back
and sort of like, you know, heal

the damage that has been done in
the more violent ways of her cohort.

Kevin: What did you make of the
alternate universe Cerritos here?

Rob: Yeah, it didn't really
push anything too far in the

way of, of alternate characters.

It made it, it was, it was quite a, not
safe, but a quite a, uh, a standard.

They're pretty much exactly the same.

And the main focus of course was,
Oh, who would have thought Mariner's

having second thoughts about taking
a step forward within her life.

Kevin: Once again.

Rob: More fool us.

More fool us.

We keep on going.

Well, that's it.

Mariners never gonna have any self
doubt about this stuff, you know,

it's the same thing with sort of like,
um, uh, Discovery, where we go, Oh,

you know, maybe Michael Burnham won't
talk about themselves all the time

and make it all about themselves.

But, I did like the particular thing that
none of the alternate versions get along.

The only two who do get
along are the Boimlers.

Kevin: Yes.

This is the Cerritos.

If everyone is just a little too much
themselves, like if they, they, they

indulge in their worst instincts.

And I think that's like, it's no more
literal than in Rutherford's case

where he literally turns himself into
a robot to not feel the departure

of his friend Tendi, uh, which I, I
am still going to call, there, there

will be, there will be a romantic
reunion by the end of this series.

Surely that is the last shoe to drop
here in season five of Lower Decks

Rob: Yeah, they're, they're leaning,
they were leaning definitely hard,

hardcore into that way, you know,
friends don't miss friends that much

that they, you know, that they're not
showering, and their sweat marks are

seen on their uniforms, and their facial
hair is growing out, and so, um, yes.

Methinks he protests a bit too much.

Kevin: Yes.

But, uh, even, even seeing Ransom with a
mullet and Billups with a cape and just

like those slightly too much themselves,
uh, versions, like that seemed to be

the, the alternate universe that we went
into here is everyone's just a little

too indulgent of their worst impulses.

All

Rob: And they couldn't go,
they couldn't do it like that.

I'm not sure if they've
been neutered a little bit.

Gone are the days of like, seriously
maiming and disfiguring characters, then

having them healed by the next episode.

Or, you know, dying and coming
back without any explanation.

Um, to the point where, you know, there's
this, you know, the white elephant

in the room is, where's the captain?

And we're all going, ah, and they
just go, no, she was just sent

off to, you know, Starbase 80.

Kevin: 80.

Yeah.

Rob: So they're going, come on, Lower
Decks did always have that bite in

there, with its irreverence as well, but

Kevin: Yeah, you were expecting
them to reveal that they had

mutinied against her or something

Rob: Yeah, or that she was, yeah,
she'd been killed off or something like

that, and they're going, you're in an
alternate universe, do whatever you want.

Kevin: I feel like that must be
a seed planted for the inevitable

bookend return of this alternate
Cerritos at the end of the season.

Rob: Alright, so you believe this
is the, this is the arc that I

Kevin: Yeah, I don't think
we've seen the last of them.

I feel like the fact that, that Boimler
stole that PADD, the copy of Fleet

Magazine that tells the life story of
the slightly better than Boimler Boimler.

Rob: He does have a beautiful beard.

Kevin: Yeah, and the advice he has started
taking from the, the biography of a

successful officer that he's been reading.

Uh, so I feel like that has to come
back somehow and the fact that, uh,

that, that unseen captain was mentioned
and clearly given, given a, you know,

jeopardy that wasn't dealt with.

I think that has to come back.

Maybe it starts with, uh, Captain
Freeman coming through the wormhole

there, uh, and, uh, and searching
for our, our prime universe crew.

So we'll see.

Maybe, I don't know if I've called it,
but yeah, it felt like the start of

something, not the end of something.

That first episode to me.

Rob: Yes, it definitely seemed like
they were starting the ground running.

It didn't seem like they hit
the, hit the season with, you

know, uh, all guns ablazing.

It was definitely a let's ease ourselves
into it, let's, um, start the momentum

as opposed to hitting it with the
momentum already, uh, already going.

Kevin: Yeah.

Speaking of the start of something,
we skipped right over the opening

credits where they have gone completely
overboard in that battle scene.

And, uh, rather than just add one scary
big thing, by my count they added the

Hand of Apollo from Star Trek the Original
Series, giving the Borg cube a hug there.

Rob: I did re I, that was the one
I saw and that distracted me, so

I've missed some of the others.

Kevin: Then there was the Tholian web.

The Tholians came in and
started doing lines over top.

And then in the background, V'ger
from Star Trek The Motion Picture,

like the cloud of V'ger comes in.

And the last sound you hear is, is
the like electronic noise of V'ger.

Um, I don't know if I missed one
or two others in there, but those

were the three that stood out to

Rob: I was distracted by the space
probe from Star Trek 4 as always.

Kevin: As always, yeah.

Rob: my ear.

Kevin: But yeah, we'll see.

How about, uh, you know, Tendi's,
um, Tendi's hijinks in this?

Rob: Yeah, it's gonna be interesting
to see how much legs this has and

because it's, it's a case of the
inevitable return of Tendi to Starfleet.

It depends on how

Kevin: Well, it went quickly.

Like, I don't think we need
to beat about the bush.

We're about to talk
about the second episode.

And to me, that was the resolution.

And, uh,

Rob: I was being coy, Kevin.

I was being coy, but they were
doing it this episode, so I forgot.

I had

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

Well, we were, we were watching
it and, uh, our response was,

oh, that was quick, but I guess,
you know, it was satisfying too.

Rob: Yeah, part of me was thinking it
was maybe going to be the first episode.

I went, well, that's a bit quick.

Um, but there was some important
stuff done in episode two to make

that resolution, um, of her going
back to Starfleet more substantial.

So I think two episodes
was a good way to do it.

I think the second episode
had a lot more for her to do.

I definitely enjoyed that.

Connection with her sister, with
her family, her family's position

within the Orion organization, her
bringing that Starfleet mentality

into the Orion culture and how it
doesn't, it doesn't sync at all.

It clashes far too much for her to,
you know, be able to survive really,

and for her family to survive.

So it was very, um, that
was for me very telling.

Kevin: Yeah, it set up the war
with the blue Orions in, at

the end here of this episode.

It's pronounced Orions!

Uh, from, uh, the Animated
Series, as we have said before,

um, great to see them back.

Um, and, uh, yeah, my, my, my partner
Jess said, they seem like cartoon

villains from a 1960s cartoon.

And I said, funny, you should

Rob: off.

Just move into the 70s and

Kevin: That's right Yeah, exactly.

Uh, but yeah, they were real funny.

They're kind of the, the Pakleds
of this season, I feel like.

Rob: Very much so.

Very much so.

And how easily, by the end,
they just follow exactly

what, you know, the Orion say.

Okay, they're trying to be so
butch and so aggressive and so

angry and so, you know, cunning.

And by the end, no,
they're just pussycats.

Kevin: Yeah.

So moving into Shades of Green, this
is, uh, where Tendi gets suspicious

when D'Erika, uh, her sister, is
showing symptoms of fatigue and

raids her, her personal log and
finds out she is hiding a pregnancy.

The, uh, she and her sister need to
work together on a sailship race through

a nebula against the blue Orions, uh,

Rob: A bearded and fully haired
Sisko would be very proud.

Kevin: Yeah, I know, it was, it was a
strange, like, let's pluck that thing

from Bajor, Bajoran culture in Deep Space
Nine and just use it here in the Orions.

I guess more than one
species can have sailships.

They didn't.

They don't look exactly like
the Deep Space Nine ones,

but they look pretty close.

Rob: Yeah, and they're going through
a asteroid field, so there's a

little bit of Star Wars Attack
of the Clones in there as well,

Kevin: We've had a few races through
asteroid fields in Star Trek lately,

so I feel like they needed some
element to mix it up from what

we've seen recently in Prodigy.

So I guess the sail ship, uh, was,
the element was to do that as well.

Rob: I did like the
mutiny with kindness, that

Kevin: Yes, the cutany!

Ha

Rob: very cute, that was, that was

Kevin: ha ha!

Tendi, yeah, Tendi was really annoying me.

Like she was, I mean, she was clearly
out of line and doing the wrong thing.

Uh, and, and I guess you could understand
why, but until it got to cuteny and

it won me over, um, she was, she
was getting on my nerves as much as

she was getting on D'Erika's nerves.

Rob: It was a very nice flip
on the idea of going, everyone

knew that D'Erika was pregnant,

Kevin: I know.

So good.

I feel like every episode of Lower Decks
is having that moment where people were

acting the way they were for the complete
opposite reason to what you expect.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, and that's a good thing.

You get so caught up in the big moments
of Star Trek's TV shows, like with

Lower Decks, when they do those big,
you know, continuity, connections

to the larger canon, but you forget
it's a week to week comedy show as

well, and it's very much a comedy show
based on interpersonal relationships.

So to strip that back and show the
cleverness of it, that's what the, that's

how the show works, it's not just a,
you know, as some Podcasts are reviewed

as a flippant version of Star Trek.

Whoever said that, oh my god,
have they ever watched the show?

The character, the character
interpersonal relationships really

work, and they're really clever.

Beautiful writing of doing that stuff
that still keeps us on our toes and

going, yeah, that's smart understanding
of the characters and how each

character knows each other as well.

Very clever.

Kevin: And a very classic, uh,
configuration of Boimler and Mariner

on the, uh, planet that is celebrating
the achievement of post scarcity

technology, so they can, they can
replicate anything they want, so they'll,

let's burn all the money, which is, uh,

Rob: you don't

Kevin: you know, something that, it, it,
it kind of is the, the literal inter,

like it's the natural, uh, result of
what Star Trek lore asks us to accept,

but it is a result that could only
really work in animation, and, and

fun, fun to see it played out here.

Rob: Now I'm still trying to understand
how the trick worked in the, I might have

been distracted with other things, so that
the crew poisoning themselves and then

Kevin: Yeah, it's kind of bizarre.

I had to watch it twice myself.

So I, I gather what we what we were
meant to accept is that the, the

ensigns that Boimler trained were so
well trained that they figured out that

there's this bug on the planet that can
make you fake your death, basically.

And when they were captured, they
happened to still have this sample on

them from their, their research, I guess.

And so they decided as a means of
escape, they would fake their deaths

and the robots would have to take
them out of their cell or something.

But it didn't exactly play out that way.

Instead, uh, Boimler and
Mariner were, were put in the

same cage and, uh, you know.

Rob: It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a
very Shakespearean potion type of get

out jail free kind of going, oh yeah,
it, you know, it fakes death, you know,

Kevin: Oh, it was kind of
horrific, the green foam

Rob: coming out.

And like their skin turned like
this green, sort of like zombie

esque color, um, and then, like
that, snap, they're out of it.

Um, I did like the, the guards, who were
not guards, they're robots who are meant

to be gardeners or servants and stuff.

They don't know how to deal

Kevin: Oh no, I have not
watered my prisoners.

Yeah, that was That whole, that whole
sequence just felt, like, it needed one

more pass of sense making for it to work.

There were, there were definitely funny
elements in there, but it just kind

of skated by in the logic department.

Rob: Yeah, I'm trying to make sense
of why is Boimler going through this.

He wants to be as good
as his other version.

Does he not?

Yeah.

So, um, it seemed to be putting
in a drama for the sake of it.

Kevin: My favorite stuff was every time,
both times Boimler, uh, talked to Ransom

using Mariner's communicator, and he was
like, Have you lost your communicator?

Do you need me to send one down?

Again, just a funny thing that can
happen in Star Trek that we've never seen

happen before because it's absurd, but
we get to do it in the comedy series.

Rob: And again, um, one of the
strongest additions to any Star Trek

show coming in halfway through, uh,
T'Lyn is still knocking it out of, uh,

the park, our, our Vulcan addition is
a gre is a great, uh, her scenes with

herself in the alternate version were

Kevin: Yes.

Remarkable.

Fascinating.

Rob: say this, um,

Kevin: trash talking with me
so openly because you believe

me to be from your universe?

Rob: And of course her attempts at
getting Rutherford out of his funk by

being far too efficient and putting
together the shuttle in record time.

Kevin: Yeah.

So sweet.

Nice little C story there.

Rob: Yeah, an additional C story added in.

And then of course,

Kevin: The sight gag of her appearing
in the door that's opening and closing

while Rutherford's doing maintenance.

So good.

And then repeated with Tendi
at the end of the episode.

Rob: I definitely, I'd like the
wrapping up at the end so that all

of Tendi's family lost their money
because of this bet because of

Starfleet's, uh, influence on Tendi.

And then you didn't see it coming, or?

Neither did I.

And then of course they're giving up
all their money so the Orions take it.

Great.

That was a nice little flip.

Kevin: Normality is restored.

Rob: Ready to carry on with
the rest of the season.

But yeah, I think I preferred this
episode over, uh, the first one.

Kevin: Oh yeah.

Good.

Already, just two episodes in, I
am already sad that this is ending.

Like this, I'm, I've got that
feeling like, oh no, there's only

eight episodes left of Lower Decks.

Rob: It seems weird, yeah, especially
because the way that we've talked about

this many times before, it's a whole
different ballgame now since Star Trek

was huge in the 90s where you could, you
could do three separate shows going for

however many seasons, you know, seven
seasons at 23, 24 episodes a season.

And now we're in a different
streaming where that's unheard of.

We, you know, some shows
barely get to 24, um, in total.

Um, and so even though the momentum
is building up the way that streaming

platform works, unless you're bringing
in new subscribers and new viewers,

no matter how successful your writing
is going, the model just does not

suit, uh, for it to go longer.

To make it to five seasons is

Kevin: I've seen some hints dropped
in the media that this fifth season,

though it will be the ending of the
series, it will not be the ending

of the stories for these characters.

Uh, and I wouldn't be surprised if
they, um, they embrace the model

that Futurama did for a while
there of having kind of TV movies.

For the, them to come back every
now and then, I feel like maybe

maybe the economics of 10 episodes
a year are not working out as

the well runs dry on streaming.

But the the thing is, this is
probably a pretty cheap show to make.

It's not something where you need
all the actors in the same place.

So scheduling is not a problem.

It's not like you have to keep your
actors on contract, uh, for a whole

year in order to keep making this show.

So maybe it's like once
a year we'll do a story.

We'll get the band back together
for two hours of Lower Decks

and keep the party going.

That's what I would hope for.

Rob: Definitely.

Or there could be a way of, especially
with recording stuff, they could do

like multiple stories in one or two
hits, and that could be then released

once a year or something like that.

So there's definitely a way of doing it.

That's how a lot of like Big Finish,
which is a Doctor Who audio adventure,

they record, you know, whole box sets
of five to six different stories years

in advance and then release them,
you know, as, as, as compilations

over, over the course of five years.

It's, yeah, so it's a model of how
you shift according to, you know,

the way that people consume nowadays.

Kevin: All right.

Well, let's talk about characters
meeting themselves in Star Trek.

Rob: Yes, let's, let's begin, shall we?

Do you have one from the original series?

Kevin: I do have one
from the original series.

It wasn't on my list when we first
discussed this concept, but it, it came

to mind in the intervening time, and so

Rob: In a dream, in a fever dream, did you

Kevin: Yeah, well, in a, in a cup of tea,
in fact, uh, because on my mug here, you

can see, uh, The Enemy Within, James T.

Kirk versus James T.

Kirk.

Rob: it was standing there
staring you right in the face

Kevin: That's right, this is
one, one of my favorite mugs

that I drink from every day.

And this is, uh, season one, episode
four of the original series, so

a real early one in the series.

Yeah, and, and I would, I would say
at the time, it was considered one

of the stronger episodes of the show.

This was probably like, one of
the ones they had in the bank, in

their like, original list of ideas
that they pitched, that, that,

uh, they were really confident in.

Uh, in some very clear ways,
does not age very well, this

episode, that we'll talk about.

But, in terms of people meeting
themselves, um, It does have Captain Kirk

meeting Captain Kirk after a fashion.

Uh, this episode, are you
familiar with it, Rob?

Rob: I am not.

I

Kevin: Well,

Rob: about it before?

Kevin: It has come up once or twice, yeah.

Um, in this episode there is
a transporter accident at the

start that splits Kirk in two.

Kirk beams aboard, uh, and is kinda
tired and goes to his quarters and

everyone leaves the transporter room and
then Kirk beams aboard a second time.

And the second Kirk has his back to
the camera and the camera zooms in and

William Shatner, lit from below, spins
around with eyeshadow on his, uh, or

eyeliner on, and is evil Captain Kirk.

And Kirk has been split into
his good and evil parts.

Uh, I, I use those, uh, scare
quotes you like to use, Rob.

Rob: Love it.

Love the

Kevin: Because it's,
it's not so clear cut.

It's kind of Captain Kirk's aggression,
his confidence, his, uh, his

animalistic Uh, side is split apart
from his intellect, his, uh, emotional

intelligence, his compassion, um, which
was the first captain to beam aboard.

And throughout this episode, we get to
see what these two halves of a person,

um, are able to do and not able to do.

And how, uh, you know, a man split
in two is not able to function and

ultimately is at risk of dying.

The transporter accident is recognized
pretty early and the rest of the

away team must stay below while they
try and figure out how to repair the

transporter and the temperature drops.

And this is a, you know, an episode
where Sulu is trapped on the

surface below and is phasering rocks
with his team huddled around the

glowing rocks to try and stay warm.

And so that's the ticking clock is the,
the landing party will freeze to death if

they can't repair the transporter in time.

But meanwhile, Captain Kirk is
second guessing himself, or good

Kirk is second guessing himself and
starting to be unable to, to make

decisions without his confidence.

And a lot is made of, will
you relinquish command?

No, I must not relinquish command.

And I can't let the crew see me this
way because if they see me uncertain,

then they'll lose their faith in me.

And, and then I lose my command.

And you know, in modern Star Trek,
it would be like you, you are clearly

having a day, you are incapacitated,
hand over command to your first officer.

But that is like, not an
option here in early Star Trek.

In, in early Star Trek, it's kind of
the, I guess the submarine commander

model of like, if the captain goes down
with the ship, and there is no second

in command, there is no handing over
command because you're incapacitated.

They, they, they, do the toxic masculinity
thing of pretending everything is fine.

Rob: Yep, there is no, there is no PTSD.

There is, uh, you've got to man
up and just, uh, and deal with it.

And, you know, and if you have any type
of, you know, effects in a negative

capacity, then that is deadly and
that takes away any power you have.

Kevin: And meanwhile, evil Kirk
has the run of the ship and

people don't realize at first that
he's not the real Captain Kirk.

They don't realize at first that
there are two Captain Kirks until, and

this is where things start to go pear
shaped, um, evil Captain Kirk attempts

to rape Yeoman Rand in her quarters.

Rob: Right.

Kevin: Yes, uh, he, uh,
it is an ugly scene.

Like, it It is hard to watch today.

I I can only imagine it was hard
to watch at the time as well.

And I'm, I'm surprised it, it made it to
air early in this unproven show's life.

I can only imagine that just
the show was not, didn't have

that many eyeballs on it yet.

And, uh, and it made it through.

But, you know, network censors were a
thing at the time, so, there's, you know,

it's a forced kiss, and a, and a, um, stop
fighting me, and a physical altercation

where she's thrown to the floor and pinned
down, and it's, it's real gross, uh, and

she, she scratches his face, which becomes
like the identifier for the evil Captain

Kirk through the rest of the episode.

And she, she gets away.

Uh, and it takes a little while for the
rest of the crew to kind of, or, or for

Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, the people who are
in the know here, to kind of figure out

what's going on, that they're dealing with
a, an evil duplicate of their captain.

Um, and, uh, the, the, next terrible
beat is when, uh, uh, Yeoman

Rand reports what happens to her.

Um, she is called into sickbay, uh,
to face Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, uh,

who question her on her experience.

So as far as she knows, um, Kirk has
assaulted her in her quarters, and

leading the, the inquiry is Captain Kirk.

Rob: Oh my gosh.

Right.

Kevin: There is some, uh, there is some
off screen, um, oral history about this

episode where in that scene where she
had to seem so, like, shattered and

devastated and traumatized that in order
to get there as an actor, um, she was,

she was like, working to get there,
and so William Shatner, in order to

help her, struck her across the face,
uh, between takes, so that she could

genuinely cry in the moment, for which,
uh, she, she reportedly was grateful.

Um, so yeah, really kind of weird,
you know, blending of the on screen

and off screen stories here, that,
that really, you know, it, it's,

it's not a pleasant story to tell.

Rob: Ah, the 1960s, ugh.

Kevin: Yeah.

Um, and then capping it all off, the,
uh, the button of this episode, when,

when Kirk is restored into one and
everything is back to normal, Yeoman

Rand kind of, you know, takes her
station on the, the bridge, and she,

she goes to Captain Kirk, and she finds,
she's like, she's a little embarrassed

because she understands now that it
wasn't her captain that did this to her.

So she tries to apologize to Captain
Kirk, and he said, like, he, he

waves it away and says thank you,
like, before she can say anything.

And then she walks over to Spock, and
Spock goes, I wrote it down here.

Spock says to her, with a knowing wink,
the, uh, imposter had some interesting

qualities, wouldn't you say, Yeoman?

Kind of implying that, that she, she
enjoyed the, uh, the sexual attention.

Eeeh, that's the, that is the literally
the comic beat at the end of this episode.

So it's hard to recommend.

But the thing is, everything
else about this episode is quite

well executed and interesting.

The, the idea, I feel like, that, that,
uh, you know, a person, and let's go

there, a man split in two, would have
these attributes that are, you know, that

we all carry around inside ourselves,
and that we, we override our worst

instincts, we have learned to grow
beyond them as people, but that in a

situation, in a sci fi situation like
that, that they would be part of even

our hero, Captain Kirk, is interesting.

And it is explored in, I feel like, a, a
truthful, um, deep way here, uh, as far

as the 1960s television could manage.

So, that stuff is, is good, and I, I kind
of want to say this is a good episode of

Star Trek for those reasons, but, that,
that toxic masculinity stuff, and, and

the culture around, around rape and how it
was seen at the time is, is pretty gross.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's very much like, we've talked about it
before, how the vision of the future but

from a modern point of view, and there's,
they're still limited by what social mores

and cultural structures are set up within
their socio economical, relationship wise,

um, you know, all that type of stuff.

They can only expand within
that limited knowledge.

They need to learn by going forward.

That that could then expand.

It's, it's, yeah, it's a
futuristic version from a, it's

a time capsule of that time.

It says more about that time than it does.

And sometimes it breaks through, like
you said, there are those moments that

make it timeless and why it has lasted.

And, um, and, and, and you can see
that with all the series moments

within, uh, Next Generation, there
are some episodes that, you know,

people are wholly embarrassed by,
even by cast members who have done it.

Deep Space Nine, we've discussed
that as well, um, some bold,

controversial episodes, uh, quite, uh,

Kevin: They don't quite get there in

Rob: Yeah, and they're hamstrung by
all the sci fi babble that they wrap

up to give it a justification within a
heteronormative, um, you know, patriarchy.

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, I mean, despite all its
faults, I'd say this is a great

episode for Grace Lee Whitney.

The late, the late great, uh, Yeoman
Rand, uh, this and Miri that we talked

about, uh, not too long ago are,
are I think her two best episodes.

And I would say arguably she does the
most acting and, and, uh, uh, is, as you

know, at the peak of her powers as a,
as an actor in this episode, which is,

you know, so much more the shame for,
for how she is treated as a character.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very much a case of, we've seen it
happen so, know, far too many times.

Kevin: What's your, uh,
first meeting of the self?

Rob: Well, uh, thank you
to your recommendation.

I watched an episode that, uh, I'd seen
the sequel of, but I hadn't seen the

original and so I watched the original and
then re watched the sequel and so my, my

opinion on the sequel episode has changed
because of my watching of the first.

So, um, I was recommended to
watch Second Chances, which is a,

a, a season 6 episode 24, right?

Kevin: Right at the end.

Yeah.

Just before, just before like the,
the cliffhanger of the season.

Rob: So this is, um, another transporter
incident that happened eight years ago.

So before, before, um, Riker
went to the Enterprise when he

was, um, on board another ship.

Um,

Kevin: I think it's

Rob: The Potemkin, I believe.

Yep.

And there was, uh, sort of like a, a
protective dome around this planet.

Sort of like, you know, energy field
and so transporting in and out.

There's only time windows they can do it.

Um, they go back to that same planet
and they find there someone who's been

abandoned for eight years and living there
and it's a duplicate of William Riker.

In every way shape or form it is him and
they find out it's that pesky transporter.

So they were able, they boosted a signal
to do two transporter beams for Riker.

One got him out and the other one sorta
like ricochet off the barrier and send

him back and copied him perfectly.

Kevin: A nice little visual story telling
Okudagram in that conference room scene

where they explain what happened and the
little waves bouncing off the atmosphere

to the little icon of a William Riker.

Rob: It it, it, was the perfect
representation of a whiteboard

or a blackboard that we have seen
so many times when complicated

explanations of scientific things.

Bring out the whiteboard,
bring out the blackboard.

Um, so yes, what does this
mean for William Riker?

What does it mean for William Riker?

Um, what does it mean for,
uh, everyone on the ship?

Uh, because there's still things that need
to be sorted out, information needs to

be downloaded, um, and they need to work
together to, to, to get this information.

Um, but William Riker still has feelings
for Troi, um, despite the fact that, you

know, Will, Will and Troi have got used
to the fact that they're just friends.

The opportunity has come and gone, but
this Will is a Will who's been thinking

about it non stop for eight years.

Um, again, we have a moment
where we have the two female

characters talking about a man.

Um, uh, yeah, um, uh.

And we also open the scene with
Will Riker playing his trombone.

Mm, mm, mm.

Kevin: Yeah, that was good.

I like that.

I mean, you hear, you hear the stories
that, like, that was something that

Jonathan Frakes, you know, said,
Hey, I know how to play the trombone.

You want to use it?

And they used it no
more than they did here.

Rob: And it's a cute moment,
you know, how Troi knows so much

about Will, that there's that one
song that he always struggles.

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
Any others?

Any other suggestions?

Um, so to watch that was great to see,
I mean, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Jonathan

Frakes does an incredible job here
playing both versions of the character.

Kevin: Yeah, I thought really subtle.

Um, Jonathan Frakes not known for
big noting himself as an actor.

Whenever he talks about his
acting, he's like, whoo, you know,

um, I was in over my head every
single moment of that seven years.

And, uh, I feel lucky to have been asked.

And every, every time they asked me
back, I feel lucky to be asked back.

But yeah, he, he did some subtle stuff.

Like every time, every time I was finding
Thomas Riker a little annoying and I

was like, hang on, is that, um, is that
something about Will Riker I don't like?

The very next scene there'd be Will Riker
and the contrast would be so apparent.

I'd be like, oh no,
that's a character choice.

It's so good.

Rob: Yeah, and it just shows
the great work, um, him and

Marina Sirtis have together.

Their connection is incredible
doing both versions of it.

Kevin: Ah, once again I am going
to call for the Riker Troi box set.

Their relationship is played out in little
episodes like this scattered through the

whole series, and I think they amount
to more than the sum of their parts.

Rob: No, it's great.

And, um, it's interesting.

So many of the other characters,
periphery characters are like, we hardly

see any, uh, Picard in this episode.

He does, he does appear a bit

Kevin: I almost thought this was
a Patrick Stewart directed episode

for how little we see him, but it
was LeVar Burton who directed it.

Rob: And written by the great Ronald D.

Moore.

Kevin: Wow, very good.

Rob: Love our Ronald D.

Moore.

Kevin: Much like, uh, The Icarus Factor
that we talked about recently where

Riker's dad comes to the ship, this is
a Riker centric episode that, to me,

has a structure that is uniquely TNG.

The science fiction story is so in the
background, is so beside the point.

It is basically a soap
opera, this episode.

Uh, and you know, Jonathan Frakes, lots
of experience appearing in soap operas.

And so he is in his comfort
zone with this material.

Rob: It is a beautiful moment where
the two Wills are talking about his dad

and he's there going, you know, well,
I've, you know, dad's come on the ship

and we've, you know, been able to heal
things a little bit and he goes, well,

you know, I'm still in that place where,
you know, you were eight years ago.

Um, amazing stuff.

And then kind of a hopeful ending
at the end of sort of like, you

know, maybe there's a chance.

Um, moving forward, you know,
taking my middle name to be

Thomas, there's this sense of,
acknowledgement, bittersweetness,

Kevin: Notice no goatee in this episode.

Rob: No goatee, no, no, no
peeling off of the side hairs.

Kevin: was a Deep Space Nine invention.

I'll have you know, not all of
Deep Space Nine's ideas were good.

Rob: Yeah, look, well that's
a thing, that's a thing.

I'm there going, you know, I always hold
Deep Space Nine to a higher standard than

any, any of the other Star Treks, but I'm
there going, this is where, uh, TNG, uh,

you know, sets up something incredible,
and Deep Space Nine kind of screws the

pooch, if you don't mind me saying.

Kevin: On the subject of meeting yourself,
uh, I thought that this, this idea that

I think the science fiction scenario
here allows us to explore uniquely.

This idea that eight years on, Will Riker
knows that he made that choice to leave

Troi and not go and meet her as agreed,

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: and he, he has, he and she have
reconciled themselves to that decision.

And then they can meet him effectively
before that decision was made, and

that version of him is convinced
he would not do the same thing, but

when push comes to shove, he does.

And so that, that idea that the decisions
we make are often, when push comes

to shove, different than the ones we
would have ourselves make, or think

ourselves able to make, is a really
interesting character idea that I

really loved exploring in this episode.

Rob: Very much so.

It's a case of, you know, you don't really
know what decision you'll make until

Kevin: Yeah, how many times do we
say, I could never do that, or I would

never do that, but you never know

when the circumstances are, are just so.

Rob: And I was really quite,
I literally sat upright.

I knew what was going to happen at the end
because of, you know, the sequel episode.

But that that peril that they were
put in with the, with the, the

bridge collapsing and the two of
the, the two of them working together

and the look they gave each other.

That's, that, that was
some exciting stuff.

That was beautifully
written and put together.

Well done, Mr.

Burton.

Well done, Mr.

uh, D.

Moore.

And well done, Mr.

Riker and Mr.

Riker.

Well, Mr.

Frakes and Mr.

Frakes.

Yeah, that was a really, I'm there going,
this is, this is, I did not expect this.

This is tense and really well done.

Kevin: Mmm!

Ah, I'm gonna take us to something a
little less well done, which is Star Trek:

Nemesis, in which, uh, Captain Picard
meets a clone of himself, uh, which we

are asked to believe young Tom Hardy is
a, a, a, young and inexperienced, immature

mirror of the captain we knew and love.

Rob: Uh, yeah, so like, when, when press
was coming out about Nemesis, there

was, the big thing was the big villain
will be a clone of Picard, and we'll

go, Ooh, okay, this is gonna be good.

And then, no, no, no, he's a young clone.

He's a young hybrid, no,
he's a young Romulan clone.

He's a young Romulan clone going
to the, to the, uh, other twin

planet Remus where they are bat
looking vampire y looking Romulan.

It's, what, it's a mess.

Kevin: It's a mess.

The, the story of this is a mess.

And, you know, all due respect to, uh,
Brent Spiner, who I believe had a, a

big hand in the story structure here,
but whew, boy, it's all over the place.

We are asked to believe that Shinzon,
who is abandoned as a mining slave

on Remus, also fought and won several
triumphant battles in the Dominion

War, and somehow came into possession
of Data's prototype B4 and modified

it to entrap the Enterprise into,
into, uh, giving up the secrets of

Federation communications protocols.

It's, oh, it is, it is such
a long walk, this, this plot.

Rob: Yeah, directed by someone who
didn't want to direct Star Trek at all.

They didn't want to give it to
Frakes because of the underperforming

nature of Insurrection.

So Frakes is there and they're trying
to tell this director how Star Trek is

and he hated working on it and hated

Kevin: What could this movie have
been with Frakes at the helm?

Rob: Oh, just imagine, can
you imagine just how, what a

beautiful send off it would be?

It would be, I, I believe in some
ways it would, yeah, no, it would

be, it would be up to like Star Trek
6 Undiscovered Country level of, you

know, knowing, you gotta, you gotta know
this shit, you gotta know this stuff.

They did, he just was, the director came
in and did it as just another gig and

didn't care about the ramifications of it,
hence chase scenes are thrown in for no

reason to just up the excitement and take
away from the gravity of the whole story.

Kevin: Yeah, I feel like the, for me,
the start of this movie still works.

The, the Romulan Senate getting killed
off, um, Riker and Troi's wedding, um,

Or their first of two wedding ceremonies.

Very, very fan service y that
scene, but it was still working

for me up until that point.

And the moment it goes off the cliff
is like they detect the signal, the

prositronic signal that sends them
to that planet to go on the scavenger

hunt for, uh, B4's body parts.

When they're driving the Argo around
on this pre warp civilization, uh,

where they engage in firefights with
no thought to the Prime Directive,

that's when it like plunges off the
cliff for me and never really recovers.

Rob: And then we get into, you
know, psychological violation.

Kevin: Yeah, I was just gonna
say, some more, some more rape

fantasy, uh, if you please.

Rob: Yeah, just bring,
uh, Maria Sirtis in.

Um, let's just, that's what
she's there to service.

Great.

This is, uh, this is
in the early noughties.

You know, we thought
we'd moved on from, you

Kevin: can't believe we weren't past that.

It feels to me like they wanted to cut
it out once they had seen what they

had shot, but it was so intertwined
in the plot that they couldn't cut

it out without major reshoots that I
guess they had run out of money for.

Rob: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Kevin: Whew, but yeah, um,
and, like, we're here to talk

about this meeting yourself.

I guess the scenes where Jean Luc
Picard and Shinzon come face to

face are at least interesting.

When, when Shinzon seems to profess
genuine curiosity about this man and

his family life and how he got to where
he is, like, that stuff is compelling.

But then the very next scene he's
like, Oh, let's, uh, let's, uh,

invade Troi's, uh, Troi's dreams.

And, uh, and his, his viceroy is telling
him there's no more time for games.

And it's kind of revealed that,

I mean, the, my most charitable viewing
of this is that Shinzon honestly was

interested in, in Jean Luc Picard and
captivated by the idea that he could

become as, as good a man as Picard
had been, um, and attempted to make

that happen, but, but was so far down
the river of wrongful deeds that he

was irretrievable from the start.

So, um, so there is a almost
tragic reading of this, but I

don't think they pull it off.

Like, I think that's what they were
going for, but they don't pull it off.

Rob: No, there was not enough
care and time put into it

and yeah, they've diluted it.

There's a classic moment in, um, Doctor
Who, in season 22 where they, um, were

about to be cancelled and they had
a year and a half off and they came

back with The Trial of a Time Lord.

And the big overarching thing, sorry
spoilers, is the main villain in it,

the Doctor is put on trial and there's
the Valeyard, who's like the prosecutor

trying to put, getting the Doctor,
um, uh, sentenced to death, really.

Um, and you find out at the end of this
overarching story that the Valeyard is

actually a future incarnation of the
Doctor, who's gone evil and has come

back to, you know, to, to kill his
past self, which is a great concept.

But they diluted it because they then
backed away from it and went, Oh, no,

we can't actually have a future self
of the Doctor become evil, because then

that's locked into, you know, canon.

So they go, well, he's a con he's a
amalgamation of the evil elements of the

Doctor from in in between regenerations.

Kevin: It's The Enemy Within all

Rob: It's it's The Enemy Within.

Uh, the script writing
is the enemy within.

And so here again, it's that case of
how fascinating would it have been

to have a clone of Picard, a pure
Picard, so then you could have had

you know, Stewart up against Stewart.

Um, but diluting it with, oh, it's a
younger version, and it's a Romulan,

and putting Tom Hardy in a fake
nose to look more like, uh, Patrick

Stewart, and all these other elements
dilutes away from, you know, you

know, what makes Picard who he is.

Is it,

Kevin: It's, it's such a trivial detail.

But I think it speaks to me of the care
that was put into this movie that the

scene where Picard is looking back on
his Academy album and pulls out a photo

of himself and he's completely bald.

It's bald Tom Hardy in a cadet's uniform.

And he says to, uh, he says to
Crusher, You remember this kid?

And, and they, they, they go about
pretending that Picard was bald in

his academy days, and we've seen
him before at that age and was not.

Like, it is, it, it really does feel
like so much money had fallen out of

the franchise at that point that a lot
of the people who still cared had left.

Rob: Yep.

And it's always the way like even in
even in the 80s when they were making

the movies and they were successful
there was always number crunching when it

came to how much money was allocated to
Star Trek um but especially here because

First Contact was such a big success and
then they wanted that success matched

and when Insurrection didn't do that

Kevin: How quickly the
fortunes turn, yeah.

One bad movie and you,

Rob: Within a couple of years you

Kevin: sent to movie jail,
as Jonathan Frakes likes to

Rob: Jonathan Frakes used to say, you
know, he was the king of the world.

He was offered, you know, so many
opportunities in film and stuff like

that after, after First Contact.

And as soon as Insurrection came, we went,
Oh, he's back to being a TV director.

Kevin: And the thing is, this movie
does feel cheap in some of the same

ways that Insurrection felt cheap.

It feels, in parts, it feels kind
of like an episode of the week, uh,

that, that like, you could have done
this on a TV budget and it wouldn't

have looked much different at times.

But, It was kind of a self fulfilling
prophecy by that point of like, well,

if you can only earn TV money, we'll
only give you TV dollars, and then

you'll only be able to earn TV money.

Rob: Yeah, it's very much a case
of as soon as we hit the 2000s,

it goes from the heady heights of
three seasons going simultaneously,

pretty much, um, to, and movies as
well, to then the movies are ending.

All the shows are gone except for
one and that kind of peters out when

it was trying something different.

I wouldn't say Enterprise was
hitting its, its straps, but it was

definitely trying stuff that was more
interesting than what came before.

Um, yeah, and this is just a, a
mess of no money, no faith in the

people who have been a part of it for
decades, uh, to, to bring it home.

Kevin: Yeah.

Um, I enjoy the soundtrack.

The score of this movie still gets me.

I do like that.

There's a lot of like, kind of
driving Romulan strings that

really work for me in this.

Rob: this Jerry Goldsmith again?

Kevin: Yeah, it was Jerry Goldsmith.

Rob: Awesome.

Awesome.

Kevin: Yeah.

Finding some new colors to
Star Trek musically once again.

Rob: A hugely underrated composer.

I know John Williams always gets,
uh, the main focus, and rightly so.

But, yeah, Jerry Goldsmith is one
of those composers who did some

incredible, diverse, uh, film scoring.

Even diverse within the same franchise.

Um, and, uh, yeah, he should,
uh, definitely get a lot

more attention than he gets.

Kevin: Where this, yeah, that guy earns
his paycheck so often in Star Trek

history, but probably no finer example
of this movie where we might criticize it

for lacking gravitas, I feel at times the
only gravitas it has comes from the score.

Rob: Mm hmm.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: So, well done, sir.

Rob: Well done, Mr.

Jerry Goldsmith, you are missed.

And, uh, what a wonderful,
uh, composer you were.

Um, one thing I forgot to mention earlier
from, uh, seeing we're talking so much

about Riker, and let's get to something,
yeah, more positive than Nemesis.

Um, the alternate universe Boimler did
the Riker step over the chair, um, to s

Kevin: that.

That's amazing.

Rob: And didn't even need to say Riker.

Um, that's, that's how
confident and successful he

was in his alternate universe.

Kevin: Well, he's rocking the Riker beard.

That's what gives him that power.

Rob: Rockin the Riker be it,
rockin the Riker, taking a

seat and doing it unironically.

Kevin: Yeah.

Very good.

Uh, did you have anywhere
else you wanted to take us?

Rob: Um, yeah, just, uh, I'll talk
quickly about, uh, the sequel, uh,

follow up to, uh, Second Chances.

Defiant, going, yeah, going back
and watching it for, uh, for the,

for the longest time, that was my
only interaction with Thomas Riker.

Kevin: Yeah, there's no Riker
meeting Riker in this, but

still, uh, very interesting to
see where that character went.

Rob: See where they went.

It's kind of disappointing.

It's quite sad that, how, how he sort
of like, you know, turned into a Maquis.

It's, they seem to shoehorn him into the
Maquis, the story they wanted to tell.

Kevin: Yeah, we're asked to believe
he went off to that posting that we

saw at the end of Second Chances and
started to express political opinions

that, uh, were, were suspiciously
similar to the Maquis views on things.

Rob: Yes, but still quite Starfleet
in the way of doing things.

He's not willing to go
the full, uh, Maquis way.

And of course, there's big
connections with him and Kira.

Kira, who has of course been
a resistance fighter, known as

Kevin: Well, if you're gonna hire
Jonathan Frakes, someone's gotta kiss him.

Rob: Wow, look, you know, there's been
quite a lineup, but, um, you know,

I think, you know, Kira has a long
history of relationships with bad boys.

Um, just had to get, you know, the long
way around before she found her good man.

Um, uh, a good blob in a bucket.

Um.

Uh, but yes, it's a bit of a, it's
a bit of a disappointing story after

the highs of, uh, Second Chances.

Um, and, uh, it's a shame to see
what they did with, with Thomas

Riker, and I don't really know
what's ha, has there been any further

developments with Thomas since then?

Kevin: Nope, as far as we know,
he's still rotting in a Cardassian

prison for, in a life sentence.

Rob: And of course, it's always good to
have, uh, Mark Alaimo there as Gul Dukat.

He's in a particularly, you know,
excellent, uh, frame of mind here, him

Kevin: Yeah, one of the saner
outings for, uh, for Gul Dukat in

Rob: This, this is his
early cunning warrior phase

Kevin: Yeah, political intrigue.

I liked him playing both sides
of saying, well, if that's the

story you're going with, I'm going
to take this to my superiors and

this is what they're going to do.

So we probably need to come up with a
better story before we leave this room.

Like, that,

Rob: Him with, him going up against the
Obsidian Order and Sisko there within

this Cardassian type of environment,
yeah, that, that stuff was really

clever and interesting, um, uh, so,
yeah, just wanted to bring it up and

I was, uh, and I'm saying, I'm saying
it for the first time, you're hearing

it right here first, Kevin, you know,
Deep Space Nine kind of screwed it up.

Kevin: It's gotta happen now and then.

Rob: got to happen every once in a while.

Kevin: Season three, they still hadn't
really figured out what they were yet.

Rob: Exactly.

Exactly.

Some highs, some lows.

Kevin: highs, some lows, yes.

They learned from what worked in Season
3 and flew from there, but they had

Rob: I'm still trying to figure out what
the hell Thomas was doing with O'Brien.

He goes, you know what you did.

I'm going, I

Kevin: There's a lot of threads about
that online, um, because people are

like, well, is he angry at him because
he was a transporter chief and the

transporter messed up his whole life?

Uh, but no, uh, apparently when you
go back to the script, it is clearer

than it was on screen that this was
a tactic by Thomas Riker to avoid

a conversation with the one person
aboard Deep Space Nine who knew him

well enough to maybe spot the imposter.

So he's like, Yeah, I'm not talking to
you, and okay, it's, it'll be confusing

enough that I'll be able to get on
board the Defiant before he, he, he

Rob: But is it a Wrath of
Khan type of situation?

Didn't O'Brien leave before season six?

Kevin: Uh, ooh, good question.

Good question.

So, you're saying O'Brien would, would not
have been there for the events of Second

Chances, and therefore might be less, I,
I think still, you know, I think you're

right, and yet, still, like, O'Brien knew
Riker well enough that he'd, like, strike

up a casual conversation that Thomas Riker
would not be able to keep up the pretense.

Rob: And go, why have you got fake
beard on the side of your face?

Kevin: Yeah, O'Brien would have
smelled a rat, and so, uh, yeah,

he cut the conversation short.

Rob: Or at least spirit gum?

Kevin: what was intended.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, I kind of got that
idea, but I was there going, clearly

you want to talk to O'Brien, so I
wanted to make him feel uncomfortable.

Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I think they could
have papered over it by just not having

them meet and it would have been much
cleaner, but, uh, they wanted to make

Rob: comes in and he could have been
the one to go at the last minute.

Wait a minute, that's not, but no,
they just, they've already buggered

off and he's going, Oh, okay.

Oh, well, that's a shame.

Kevin: Yeah.

So there you go, um, yeah, Defiant.

I, I, I'm sure there are some further
stories of Thomas Riker out there in

comics or novels to be found, if people
want to go looking for them, but yeah,

Rob: in Lower Decks before?

Kevin: Oh.

I suspect it was mentioned as a
gag, but uh, but that's probably it.

Yeah, it'd be nice to know that
he got out of that prison somehow.

Like, that promise Kira makes,
we'll get you out of there.

I think we, we know as the viewer that
it's a hollow promise that she won't be

able to keep, but it's still pretty sad.

Rob: Yeah.

It's, it's very, it's,
it's, it's a bummer.

It's a, you know, I know Deep Space Nine
was the grim, you know, the grim uncle

of the, uh, of the Star Trek family,
but I'm there going, Oh, so much hope.

So much, so much possibilities at
the end of the Next Gen episode.

And then here you go.

Oh, calm down, everybody.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Hmm.

Kevin: Oh, well, there you go.

We have seen ourselves in, in,
uh, the annals of Star Trek.

Rob: Exactly.

Reflecting back on us.

And do we like what we see?

But it's very much a case of, you
know, would you get on well with

yourself if you found, you know,
a version of yourself, Kevin?

Would you

Kevin: Well, I, yeah, I don't know.

I think I, I think I buy,
uh, Lower Decks episode one.

And, also, there's that scene in Second
Chances where, uh, Riker leaves the

room and Data and Worf talk about,
uh, could you get along with yourself?

And Worf goes, No, I'm very
hard to get along with.

Rob: right.

Kevin: I think it would
be a bit like that.

I think the last line of that
scene is like, perhaps it is

seeing in your double something
that you do not like in yourself.

And I think it would be a bit like that.

Rob: Yeah, it happens in
Doctor Who all the time.

Every time there's a multi doctor
story, they never get on well.

Fair enough.

If I met my, if I met a past version
of myself, I would, I would shit myself

up the wall, that's for damned sure.

Slap myself around the face going,
what the hell are you doing?

Calm the fuck down.