Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin.

Rob: And me, Rob.

Kevin: And we're here to talk
about Lower Decks Season 5,

Episode 4, A Farewell to Farms.

Rob: Love a good bit of wordplay,
Kevin, and Lower Decks knocks

it out of the park every week.

Week in, week out.

Kevin: And then in the second half
we will, uh, say hello to farms and

talk about, uh, some other farms in
Star Trek that, uh, that we remember.

Rob: Farming!

Star Trek!

Does it work?

Kevin: Does it make sense?

Rob: Does it make sense?

Is there, is there a place?

Is this, how does this work?

Kevin: Well, something we learned in,
uh, This episode of Lower Decks is that

Klingon farms aren't so different from,
uh, from the farms we know and love.

Their food, we know, looks very different.

Apparently worms are a big deal.

And there is a certain amount
of gagh squirming out of the

ground in, in, in this farm.

But other than that, it was pretty
conventional by Earth standards.

Rob: we had, you know, Klingon version
of the overalls, and we had Klingon

versions of wide brim straw hats.

Kevin: And plows and apparently targs
are the equivalent of Earth pigs.

Rob: They are turning into, yeah,

Kevin: We thought they were dogs.

It turns out they're more like pigs.

Rob: People do own pigs as pets,
so, you know, no casting shade here.

Kevin: Yeah.

So Ma'ah, Mariner's friend, uh,
from the, the planet with the glass

rain is a farmer, it turns out.

Rob: After being, yes, after being you
know, losing his captaincy and, um,

has been sort of like, shuffled back
into disgrace to go live on the family

farm with his, uh, his brother that
they don't really seem to connect.

Kevin: No, his brother, Malor,
who's, who's very much, a stoner

Klingon is what I would call him.

Rob: I, I really like him.

Kevin: He was hilarious.

Rob: I'm just gonna say, I
really like this episode.

This was really good.

This

Kevin: It was a good episode.

It got me right from the beginning,
just the, the, uh, the different title

treatment they did and a bit of the,
uh, a bit of the movie score coming

in to set the, the relaxed start.

Rob: It was very cinematic, wasn't it?

So like, especially, you know, the, the
wide vista shots of the, the, the shuttles

coming down to land over this wide,

Kevin: I thought we were getting this
season's basically movie episode.

It seems like a lot of these seasons
have had kind of a movie episode and

this felt like, I thought any second
the lens flares were going to come

in and we would go extra widescreen.

Rob: But yeah, it's definitely getting
that sense of, what I like to call,

you know, salt to the earth moments,
where you get all the high convoluted

sci fi stuff and species, but gets
down to it as that sort of like,

representation of rural America that,
that, America is still so fascinated

with, um, as going, this is what.

This is what it is to be real.

This is, this is real humble living.

Kevin: Yeah.

And it was a nice change of pace.

I, I don't know if I've talked about
this on the podcast before, but

I've, I've always struggled with
the modern animated comedy's pace.

Like a lot of these.

Um, these cartoons for adults, they
move at such a breakneck pace that I

find there's just no air left in them
at all to get to know the characters

and immerse yourself in the world,
because it's joke, joke, joke.

Um, and Lower Decks is certainly at times
guilty of that as well, but it's so well

executed that I can't help loving it
despite, uh, the fact that that's, that

particular format is not to my taste.

But here at the start of the episode,
at least it, it, it opened up a bit in

a way that, um, yeah, made me see what
this show could be if it was a full

hour per episode instead of these half
hour ones and I think I would enjoy it

more if it was at this pace more often.

Rob: Yeah, it's definitely been
one of the ha was one of the harder

obstacles to overcome once you f

Kevin: to make Star Trek feel like it
fits in this, in this pace, you mean.

Rob: Yeah, and I know a lot of
people were turned off by Lower

Decks because of that rapid fire

Kevin: Oh yeah, my parents are
lifelong Star Trek fans and this is

the one show they refuse to watch.

Rob: Yeah yeah.

And yeah, they've even brought that
up with the crossover episode with

Strange New Worlds, with just how
quickly, you know, Mariner and,

uh, and Boimler talk, even in their
humanoid, three dimensional form.

Um, but, uh, they, when they do take those
moments to slow it down, like, even some

of the episodes where they've gone back
to Orion, and they've taken those time,

the time to show the landscape of Orion,
and the, and the, the properties, and all

the the all the buildings and stuff like
that they can take that time, but they,

this definitely felt something different.

And it did, you know, to be honest, it
felt like something a little bit special.

I was watching this going,
this is really cool.

This is a nice, the change of the music
and the type of shots we were getting.

And to lead into just, you know, two
brothers arguing, um, on the farm, one

not being able to cope with being a
farmer, the other one so living his best

farmer life in the most lackadaisical
way, um, is, you know, that whole thing

of they may be from a different planet
and a different species, but they're

us, we're all, and we're each other.

Kevin: And for contrast, back
on the Cerritos, we have Dr.

Migleemo, coming face to face with,
um, his, his culture, which we,

we learned this episode that his
species is called the Cloacans.

Um, nice reference to avian anatomy there.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And a lot of them speak like they're
coming from that part of the body as well.

Kevin: And he meets two food critics
who are, who are basically, uh,

worshipped as, uh, as near deities in
his culture, uh, Legnog and Gonald.

And Legnog, I'm going to say
now, is the funniest name I

have ever heard in Star Trek.

Rob: Well, it was interesting,
like they did a lot of backstory

stuff in a short amount of time.

A lot of exposition from
Migleemo about like their culture

primarily based in cuisine.

Kevin: Yeah, we invented warp
drive in order to find new foods.

Rob: To see out new food and new
restaurant, yeah, degustations.

Kevin: When he, when he welcomes them
in the shuttle bay, and they like, Have

you, have you even discovered any foods?

He goes, I've encountered a few chowders.

Rob: I mean this was a great
episode because Migleemo has been

so infuriatingly infuriating.

and that's what he's been set up
is to come in, be the infuriating

source and then get out.

Kevin: Now discover he's
comparatively tolerable.

Yeah.

Rob: That's great sci-fi writing
where you go, this intolerable

one, he's, he's a picnic compared
to the rest of his culture.

Um, and how he's found his place within
psychology, uh, and that's always been a

bit of a joke, but the, I mean, I don't
wanna jump ahead, but that revelation

at the end is, like, so Columbo, and
so using psychology to be, like, this

detective figuring everything out, and
the shot of him in the background, in the

profile, just going, this type of case
is called, and you go, oh, incredible.

Kevin: Therapy, my good Gonald.

I cook the mind.

Rob: That's right!

Kevin: So yes, this was the madcap
comedy story that was like, you know,

an inch deep, but provided the hilarious
energy as a contrast to what was going

on on the Klingon homeworld, which, you
know, it had some comedy itself as well.

We had, uh, we had the
increasingly bearded Boimler

going through a Klingon phase.

Rob: He's got his Mo now.

Kevin: He's got his mow in.

Yeah, the beard's taking a
little longer for some reason.

Rob: I do love how Lower Decks is
able to get that perfect balance of

not making fun of a culture, an alien
culture, but respecting it but also

having fun with it at the same time.

They, there is no way where they're
bagging the hell out of Klingons, but

they're having so much fun with it,
so you can laugh as well as going, no,

they're respecting this culture so much.

Kevin: The, uh, the rite of
forced conscription, I was right

up against that line for me.

Rob: Just having, having Boimler
so excited to be injured and beaten

up to be a part of the culture?

Kevin: We are seeing a dramatically
different Boimler every single episode.

And it seems like they, they realized
that risk and decided to lean

into it instead of correcting it.

So Boimler is erratic to say the least
this season, but it kinda works for him.

Rob: Look, for this one, for this
episode in particular, because you've

got, you know, the soul searching
mission of losing their place within,

Ma'ah, his position within his culture.

And to have an outsider know more
about the culture, in some ways,

always hilarious when you go that,
Well, actually, I'll correct I'll

I'll I'll Klingon splain to you.

Kevin: He mewls correctly!

Rob: Heh heh heh heh

heh.

Kevin: It's strange what they're doing
with Boimler because I'm sure it's going

to play into the big story for the season,
but at least at this point, it almost

feels like Boimler, who's like one of the
two leads of this series, has regressed

into a bit of a caricature of a character.

Mariner still feels fully fledged and
like, I could tell that she was hiding

something from Ma'ah when she called
him up and made the excuse of she had to

return a Klingon bone to the bone museum.

Thought there's, there's something
else there, and that feels rich.

But in a way, uh, Boimler's feeling
the opposite of rich at the moment.

He's feeling like, um, a
cartoon, if you'll, if you'll

permit the, uh, the phrase.

Rob: Seeming a bit one note, seeming

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

They're picking a different note each
episode, but he's only playing that note.

Rob: And we're not sure where
that's leading to, I think is, yeah.

I know it's like connected to his
finding his alternate version of

himself, but it seems like, what's the
endgame here, what are we trying to

Kevin: Yeah, it feels like, it feels
like it's, he's going to play a different

extreme over compensation every single
episode, and then at the end he's going

to learn the value of being himself, or
something, and it's gonna be like, really?

Did we need an entire season
to make that arc work?

Uh, I don't know, I will, I will be sad
if that's all Boimler gets this season.

Rob: Hmm, definitely.

Um, uh, I did like him having a bit of a
reference back to his time on the Titan.

Um, that was a, a nice little
callback that fitted into, you

Kevin: Yeah, was on one of the
coolest ships in Starfleet, we

all know what he's talking about.

Rob: Um, but yeah, and like, the
working out of problems were sort of

like, you know, one person at a time
could not handle that extreme level

of pain, but if they all jump on

Kevin: Yeah, I love a, I love a,
a march through the pain sticks.

That's good stuff as well.

I'll tell you what, this episode draws
me in, has, drew me in more than any

of the previous episodes this season.

I've watched it twice.

And the first time I completely
forgot that I was going to be

recording a podcast about it.

And the second time I was like, all
right, this is my note taking watch.

And I stopped taking notes
halfway through because I was

enjoying the episode so much.

So it really drew me in.

Rob: Just, just great stuff in there.

I love the family dynamic stuff.

The two brothers work really well, and
one who's content and happy to just

be a slob on the farm, the other one
who's deeply out of place and doesn't

feel at home on the farm, or really
back in Klingon culture, and trying

to, trying to flirt at the bar but
not really working and, and she wants

only a particular type of Klingon.

And to see that journey and what he
achieved at the end and that beautiful

ending, beautiful ending when they
just get that little ship and the two

of them work together to make it work.

I'm going, that's some, that's some great
stuff to bring to a Klingon culture that

has only, you know, has evolved so much
that hasn't gone beyond that point of

where we, where we were at with, um,
Worf within Deep Space Nine, where, you

know, you do a Klingon centric episode
where it's warfare, these are honorable

warriors, and uh, you know, uh, Worf's
trying to find his place in there.

Adding these other layers to
what it means to be a Klingon.

Kevin: Yeah.

And some of those layers were familiar.

Like we had the petty dictator
who, uh, was hoisted by his own

petard by the end of the episode.

That's, yeah, and that's always
good, good Klingon stuff.

Rob: And yeah, the machinations
behind the scenes and figuring

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

A council, albeit a small one in this
case, with a corrupt Klingon on a throne.

It's a pretty familiar setting.

Um, uh, but I, I loved
what they did with it.

And like you said, they took, they took
that familiar premise just a little

further than we're used to seeing.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin: The, uh, the dimensional
holes at the end were enticing.

They look, to me, exactly the same color
as the dimensional hole that the Cerritos

got sucked into in our first episode.

And I feel, I think, it's been subtle
up until this point, but there has

been a passing mention of, like, Shades
of Green, I believe, uh, there was

some mention of, of, uh, there being
like tears in space or something.

And definitely the Nanite Hotel episode,
last, uh, one, we had the miniature, um,

starship that, that came, crossed into the
universe through a tiny dimensional hole.

Rob: Right.

And, admiral, admiral Sunburn had
to, uh, sort a way of getting them

back into the right dimension.

Kevin: That's right.

So I think it's becoming very conspicuous.

If, if by the next episode, someone
doesn't say, there sure are a

lot of dimensional holes all of a
sudden, I will be very surprised.

But this feels like the building
threat or challenge or story.

And, um, yeah, mark my words.

I think it's all going to link
back to that alternate Cerritos

in, in the first episode.

Rob: That's, that's good, that's good
homework and good observation, because,

you know, as, as I mentioned so, like,
earlier on, and they're going, yeah,

wow, no real, no real, uh, arcs coming
through, as opposed to last season,

where they ended each episode with
the destruction of something, or and

so, that's how obvious I need it to
be to go, that's a story arc, Rob.

Kevin: I like that it's
a bit subtle this time.

Rob: Oh, very much so, very much so.

And so then you can do, go
back and go, Oh, they mentioned

that there and this there.

Kevin: Feels like a great correction
to the, this Star Trek pattern in

recent years where it's like episode
one, galaxy threatening threat.

Episodes two through
nine, stringing it out.

10, they solve threat.

Um, this one is like, yeah, let's
tell some great stories, but

there is, there is something going
on if you're paying attention.

Rob: And the further we get into
the season, the more obvious we'll

make it so that Rob Lloyd can
pick it up and go, you know what?

I think they're doing something here.

Ooh, those dimensions.

Sure.

You brought it up first, but there we go.

Kevin: All right.

Well, let's, uh, let's
talk about some farms.

I've, uh, I picked, I picked
the first farm that came to mind

because it was in an episode that
we haven't drilled into lately.

Um, what did you find?

Rob: Um, I was at, well, there, we did
talk about this episode, an episode, uh,

before that in, has farming in it, in
a different episode, which was, uh, uh,

Paradise with Deep Space Nine, where the,

Kevin: Sisko in a box.

Rob: Yes.

But I do have a uh, another Deep Space
Nine episode where farming is there, and

Kevin: Hehehehe.

All right.

Well, likewise, the farming in
my episode is not the point.

So we can maybe briefly
compare and contrast our farms.

Um, yeah.

I did also think of, uh, the pilot
episode of Enterprise, Broken Bow.

It starts in like a cornfield.

Klingon running through the cornfield
into the silo and the silo exploding.

There's not much going on there other than
there are apparently still cornfields,

still silos, and still shotguns, although
they shoot silo exploding charges.

But, uh, yeah.

Farms are still a thing, we see.

Rob: Apparently.

Yeah.

Well, you got to have, you
know, that, you know, that Iowa

type of, you know, James T.

Kirk upbringing type of

Kevin: I wonder if they had randomly said
a different state of the United States.

Like if he had said, I'm from California,
would we have tons of conspicuous

surfing through Star Trek history?

Rob: Was it?

Was it mentioned earlier
than in Star Trek?

Um, Star Trek IV.

one

Kevin: I'm I'm only work in space.

I'm from

Rob: No I'm from Iowa, only.

I'm there going, was it mentioned before?

I know Tiberius was mentioned.

Kevin: I think you might be right.

I think that might be
established in Star Trek IV.

Rob: Hey, look at that.

Kevin: Okay, my, my main, uh, episode that
I wanted to look at was from Star Trek

The Original Series, Season 1, Episode 25.

25, Rob?!

Rob: Two five!

Kevin: I'm just gonna double check that
because it seems almost unbelievable.

Yes, indeed.

Episode 25 of the first season of

Rob: So that's the season finale?

Kevin: Uh, well, they, they kind of
aired them out of order back then.

Rob: That's right, yeah.

Kevin: It was the 24th episode
released, but the 25th, or 26th

produced if you count the, uh, the
two parter as two, two episodes.

Anyway, this is, uh,
This Side of Paradise.

We've talked about before as
a too good to be true planet.

Uh, the planet in question is Omicron
Ceti III, which is being bombarded by

Berthold Rays, and in the, uh, in the,
um, remastered version of the episode,

the planet has conspicuous teal auroras
in the atmosphere throughout it, just to

indicate this, this bombarding radiation.

Rob: Love a good teal aurora.

Kevin: The, uh, the premise of the
episode is It is a little confusing,

at least as it appears on screen.

The Enterprise is going to this
planet because they have lost touch

with the colonists who went there.

But on the way they say, the
planet is bombarded with Berthold

Rays, which destroy, um, organic
life within a matter of weeks.

Rob: Yeah.

Uhhuh.

Kevin: And the colonists
knew that going in.

And, and, Kirk's like, so
you're telling me they knowingly

walked into their own demise?

And Spock, uh, says a typically
cagey line, I'm saying

they knew there was a risk.

So it's unclear.

They are presumed dead, but they
were also presumed to know that

they were going to their deaths.

So I'm not sure what mission
the Enterprise is being sent on.

Rob: Yeah, okay, well

Kevin: But in, at, the end of the cold
open, Kirk and crew have beamed down and

discovered the colonists are alive and
well, and it's completely inexplicable.

Rob: Ah.

Kevin: So this is the premise of the
episode and we get to, at this point,

before we start to see what is going
on, we get a tour of this colony, and

we are told that it is a farming colony.

Um, the, the head of the colonists says,
Our philosophy is a simple one, that

men should return to a simpler life.

We have few mechanical things
here, no vehicles, no weapons.

We have harmony here, complete peace.

Um, and there is, There is a
little bit of raking the fields.

There is someone pulling
a bucket out of a well.

And someone chopping wood.

Those are the, that is the
extent of the farming that we

get to see in this episode.

Rob: No animals?

Kevin: An important plot point
that there are no animals.

Sulu and a yellow shirt, whose name
I've forgotten because we never

see him again, uh, they investigate
the, uh, the farming setup because

Kirk's like, something's wrong here.

These people shouldn't be alive.

See what you can find out.

And what they find out is
that there are no animals.

They, they look in the barn and discover
there's no cows in the barn, Rob.

Smoking gun.

Rob: Mooingun?

Kevin: There's no cows in the barn.

Let alone that, the barn was
not even designed to house cows.

It's only for storage.

This is the, this is the shock, um,
discovery that that, is in the dialogue.

Rob: What betrayal is going on here?

What mass deception?

Kevin: Um, yeah, no animals.

Sulu says, No horses,
no pigs, not even a dog.

Uh, and they, they confront Sandoval.

Sandoval is the name of the, uh,

Rob: That's a good, good name, good

Kevin: Kirk, uh, confronts
Sandoval about it and he goes,

Eh, we're, we're vegetarians.

Ha, ha.

Rob: That's 1960s America,
that's highly suspicious.

Kevin: So we can infer that the animals
did indeed die from the Berthold Rays.

But colonists did not.

And the, the twist comes when,
um, people start getting shot by

spores from flowers, and they become
deliriously happy as a result, and,

uh, no one wants to leave the colony.

This spreads to the Enterprise crew
members who start beaming the plants up

to the ship and beaming crew members down.

And, uh, the plan is to
abandon the Enterprise to

have, uh, to live in paradise.

Kirk is the last one to go.

Rob: Of course.

Kevin: Um, and he, he manages to figure
out at the last minute, while under the

influence, he, he goes to his quarters to
pack his medals, and then he goes to the

transporter room, and as he's about to
transport himself down, he has a William

Shatner solo scene with himself, where he,
he gets angry at what he's about to do.

He's like, No!

I cannot leave my ship!

And in that moment snaps out of it and
he realizes that primitive emotions like

rage break the influence of the spores.

So he was just so enraged at abandoning
his own ship, as any captain would be,

that he snapped out of it, and then,
uh, yeah, he, uh, he beams up Spock and

has a fistfight with him to snap him out

Rob: Of course, yep, yep,
yep, yep, this all makes

Kevin: Uh, then they, uh, They uh, They
rescue the rest of the crew and colonists

who, uh, who once freed of the spores'
influence are happy to be on their way.

Because when Sandoval snaps out of it,
he's just on his knees, having been

hit in the face by Captain Kirk, and
he goes, We've accomplished nothing.

Rob: Hehehe, we don't even have a dog!

Kevin: That's right.

But, uh, coming back to our, our
theme of farms, it is, um, yeah,

it, it, they, they clearly got a
good deal on someone's farmland in

order to shoot on because it's, it's
very much like primitive farmhouses.

It is, you see, uh, uh, a wooden horse
drawn carriage with no horses, uh, at

one point, there's a barn and yeah, when
they're in the farmhouse, it's got like

the, you know, metal primitive teapot
and curtains and, and wooden furniture.

It's, it's very much back to the,
back to the, uh, primitive times.

Rob: Very much Wild
West type of feel, that

Kevin: It is very Wild West type of feel.

Yeah, there, yeah.

Uh, the, the only thing that makes it
kind of spacey is that all the colonists

are wearing, um, grey jumpsuits,
stone grey jumpsuits, head to toe.

Um, which yeah, I guess makes him look
a bit spacey, but other than that it's,

yeah, it's like Kirk and crew, uh,
walk around a farm for, for 45 minutes.

Rob: It is like, like you were saying
about their decision to do this and

because, you know, man, not humankind,
should go back to a simpler time, a

more peaceful time, that is paradise.

And that's a key thing that very

Kevin: That was a recurring trope.

It's like, yeah, modern world is
getting too fast and too mechanical.

Let's go back to, uh, to the, the land.

Rob: It does seem to me to be very
much of an American culture thing.

Very much comes from, you know, you're
of the land, you're people of the land,

Kevin: Like the pilgrims did.

Rob: Yes, that you can be, you know,
advancement in some ways can't be trusted.

And if it, if it's something that you can
make or you can create on your own, with

your own hands, that is to be trusted,

Kevin: Yeah, your value is, is,
comes from your ability to tame

the land with your bare hands.

Rob: Yeah!

And that's like that whole American
dream in some ways, of anyone can make

it if you do, if you just work hard.

Kevin: It's interesting we don't
see some version of that in

modern Star Trek with, like, an
environmental message attached to it.

Rob: Exactly, yeah!

And

Kevin: Star Trek still is very
much, like, technology can

solve the environmental issue.

Rob: Yeah, I haven't seen much of that
appear, of, that's very much of, uh,

an ethos from American culture within
1960s America, and that carries on within

Star Trek, especially once you get to
the 90s, um, and how they represent

farming, and how they see that as, cause
American, American white, western culture

is quite limited over, you know, nearly
300 years, so their legends come out of

the Wild West and that type of stuff,
whereas, you know, you know, Native

American culture goes back thousands
of years with its legacy, especially,

you know, European culture and,

yeah, all that type of stuff, but
this very specific culture is tied

into these limited, uh, mythologies
of, you know, how they romanticize in

some ways that Wild West, uh, living.

Kevin: There's few things that
happen in this episode around that,

that I think, uh, Like it, we, we
said at the start of the episode,

do farms in Star Trek make sense?

And there's some stuff here that
doesn't make sense, but in a way

that feels typically Star Trek farm.

Um, so the, the colonists are, they are
referred to as an agricultural colony.

So my understanding of that is that
they went out into space to colonize a

barren planet and turn it into a farm,
a planet that, like a planet sized farm.

Rob: Right.

Kevin: Um, and one of the things
they, that the crew of the Enterprise

notices, this is the line, um, for,
for an agricultural colony, they have

actually very little acreage planted.

There's enough to sustain the
colony, but very little more.

And so the Enterprise is surprised
that they haven't like, planted more

production capacity on the planet.

So I think if not for the, the spores
and the Berthold Rays, the, the plan A

for, for this type of colony is that you
plant this very fertile planet and create

this, this massive source of, of food
for the rest of the Federation somehow.

And there are some problems of scale
there that, uh, like, are interesting.

I've, I've read some things about, you
know, in, in real life, would it ever

make sense to terraform Mars, for example,
and when you do the numbers on that,

uh, unless something dramatic changes
in our understanding of space travel,

the energy it would take to get to Mars,
to change its atmosphere enough to turn

it into habitable, farmable land, and
then to get whatever you would produce

there back to the Earth is astronomical
compared to just growing the same

stuff on Earth, in Earth's atmosphere.

Uh, and so it doesn't make sense.

This, This, idea of farming stuff to
then, uh, ship it by interstellar travel.

It just does not hold
up under any scrutiny.

But this seems to be part of the
fictional lore of, of Star Trek.

And we've seen, you know, the, the the,
uh, bins of Quadrotriticale in, in The

Trouble with Tribbles, that there is this,
like, established, uh, marketplace of

planets that grow a crop and then it is
shipped somewhere else for some reason.

Um, so I find that stuff fascinating.

Uh, because it, it is like, it goes,
it goes right by when you're watching

the, the show casually, but it's an
interesting part of the lore that

doesn't really hold up in my mind.

Rob: Yeah, well it's, it's that case
of, you know, wanting to look into

it further, because fundamentally
you just go, I'm a farmer.

Great.

Okay, so you grow stuff,
or whatever it is.

But then that gets to the next
level of it is, that stuff.

What do you do with it?

So you either just keep it for
yourself, so you're just in this

self generating thing, and that's
only sustainable to a certain point.

Then it's a case of, do you make this to
be given away to get something in return?

And so then it's a whole case of
who you're working with, then it's

all about the money system and
the Federation doesn't use money.

So is it in trade?

Is it in, is it in, you

Kevin: Yeah.

It's all linked together, that stuff.

Yeah.

Rob: And so just that ideal notion of what
a farmer is, is that simplistic working

with your hands ideology, is, works to a
certain level as a character, you know,

as a setup of a character or a, a vision.

But then when you go to the reality of
it, you're going, but how does this work?

It's, it's a, it's a beautiful notion
and a beautiful vision, but how

does it work within the reality of
this universe that you have created?

Kevin: If I squint and try to make
it work, I'm like, okay, so somehow,

maybe, like, warp travel is so cheap
and so efficient that it completely

changes the economics of moving things
around a solar system and a galaxy.

Uh, and maybe it's that.

The show For All Mankind, which is
famously, uh, run by Ron Moore, Trek fame,

it has had to deal with some of this
stuff that like the one of the big things

that goes differently in their alternate
timeline of the future is that cold fusion

is invented in the 90s and it completely
changes the economics of energy and

makes, uh, travel to and from Mars cheap
enough that it starts to make sense to

think of us as a two planet civilization.

Yeah.

And even there it, it, doesn't fully hold
together in, in like quite a modern, well

thought through, uh, fiction, I feel like.

But yeah, I mean, at the end of the
day, you can look at This Side of

Paradise and go, yep, there's a farm
there, um and, uh, and, uh, Sulu,

while he's under the influence of, uh,

Oh no, at the end when Kirk and Spock are
rescuing the crew by, uh, they transmit

an annoyance signal to the whole planet
that makes everyone agro and so they

start having punch ups with each other.

Sulu and the previously mentioned
nameless yellow shirt, they have

a, a dust up in, uh, rows of crops.

So the scene starts and they are
both like inexplicably digging

holes in the middle of a planted,
grown field of, of, of vegetables.

And, uh, one of them says, watch
where you're throwing that stuff.

And it's on for, and they're rolling
around in the in the corn fields.

So yeah, there you go.

This Side of Paradise.

It's a good one.

It's uh, yeah, you know, first season,
but, um, and I feel like the dynamics

between Kirk, Spock and McCoy are
especially present and raw in this.

There's like, there's some funny
stuff where Kirk goes to McCoy,

I thought you always said you'd
like Spock more if he loosened up.

And McCoy says, I didn't say that exactly.

Uh, yeah, good stuff there.

Rob: Excellent stuff.

Well, uh, let's jump
ahead to Deep Space Nine.

Um, Season 1, Episode 15.

Let's look at Progress.

Kevin: Progress.

Rob: Uh, this is a, uh,
Kira Nerys centric episode.

So Nana Visitor has to do a lot of
heavy lifting in this, um, and she

carries it with such aplomb, and
ease, cause he's just a master.

Um, and the B plot is, uh, Nog and Jake
getting up into scrapes, cause, uh, Nog

wants to prove to his uncle, that, uh,
him and his, uh, dad, um, are Ferengi

enough, and so wants to earn some
latinum to show off to his, um, dad.

But the main focus is, uh, Kira.

So Kira's and her or dealing with,
um, going from freedom fighter and

terrorist, or, you know, resistance
fighter, to diplomat, and, you know,

instead of fighting for your freedom,
uh, you discuss and negotiate and,

you know, all that type of stuff.

So,

Kevin: This is a sci fi version, as
I recall, of, of, she's kicking the

farmers out of their farms in order
to make way for the interstate bypass.

Rob: Yes.

Pretty much.

Yeah, one of the, one of the moons of
Bajor has been discovered to, um, if we,

if they, You know, uh, mine, the, the,
the core of it, enough energy will be

generated to save thousands of Bajoran,
uh, you know, fuel thousands of Bajoran

homes during the winter and all that type
of stuff, so it's, um, a source of, you

know, the greater good, so, there was
only a small amount of colonists living on

this moon, and they're being, yeah, moved
on, so that the greater good can prevail.

Kevin: That's another, um, that's
another Star Trek episode pattern that

could explore at some point is like
the, the, um, the bureaucracy that

rules against a small number of people.

Rob: Yeah, very much so.

Where, you know, the, you know, the,
uh, bastardization of the needs of the

many outweigh the needs of the one.

Kevin: Mmm.

Indeed.

Rob: Um, yeah, it sounds all very romantic
when you're there sacrificing yourself by,

um, stepping into a, a radiation chamber,
but it's not as so romantic when you're

dealing with a diplomat from the planet
of Bajor going, we need to get these

colonists off because we're going to save
thousands of lives during the winter.

And, uh, you wanna say that while you're
behind glass and coughing up, I will

always and always will be your diplomat.

Um, so, Kira is ultimately sent down
to, uh, deal with one particularly

pesky, um, farmer, that's right,
who will not move, who will not go.

And he needs to go, they all need
to go, pretty much out of the, gosh,

what's a couple of hundred, uh,
there's only three people who are not

agreeing, and one is, uh, Mullibok,
and his two, uh, companions who sort

of like live on the farm next door.

They don't speak, uh, so they don't have
to pay the actors, uh, speaking roles,

and they justified it as the Cardassians
dealt with them so they'd never speak

Kevin: Oh, that's right!

They had their tongues ripped
out or something and Oh, I bet

there's an interesting story there.

Nope, there

Rob: Nope, they just had them cut out.

Um, and so it's a, again, a story
of progress, about moving forward,

what's more important for the entire
population, Um, Kira connecting with her,

you know, roots, where she came from.

She had a similar upbringing on, in
her childhood, which she didn't have

much of because of the, you know, um,
Cardassian rule, and her connection

with this, uh, old school farmer who
kind of got out of the occupation of,

escaped from occupation, occupied Bajor
40 years ago and fled to this moon and

has been living as a farmer for 40 years.

Um, played by the incredible Brian Keith,
who was in, uh, the original Parent

Trap, and Family Affair, the TV show,
I knew him from a Walt Disney movie

called A Tiger Walks, and, uh, yeah.

About a, uh, tiger that escapes from a
traveling circus in a, in a rural, um,

mountain range, uh, in America during
the 60s, and, uh, Brian played the

sheriff, who is sort of like in charge
of the situation, and his daughter, uh,

his daughter's there going, don't kill
him, you gotta save the, save the tiger.

So it's this 1960s thing about, it's a
wild beast and everyone wants to kill

it, but the children are there going,
save the tiger, you gotta save it.

It's this beautiful film from the 1960s,
uh, Disney telemovie, about, you know,

saving our animals and not killing them.

Uh, anyway, he

Kevin: I'd say like his byline as
an actor was grumpy with gravitas.

Needed grumpy with gravitas,
you call Brian Keith.

Rob: Yeah, it was very much that case
of, there's no way you could turn him.

There's no way you could turn him.

Oh, oh, he's still staying grumpy, but

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: the good side.

Um, and this is one of his last roles.

Sadly, um, yeah, he's, um, he, uh, he had,
uh, lung cancer, even though he'd given

up smoking, and he was deteriorating fast,
and sadly he took his own life, um, in 97.

But this is one of his last, uh,
acting roles, and he's just a

beautiful, charming individual.

Curmudgeony,

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Plays up the whole, uh, trying to
antagonize Kira by belittling her, talking

about her beauty, calling her a girl, all
that type of stuff, and Kira figures it

out, going, you're doing that on purpose.

But it's all about, you know, I'll
go, you know, I'm not gonna go, come

and have dinner, we gotta cook up the
food this particular way, and, but it

gets to that point of going, who's he,
who's he growing all this stuff for?

What's his farming actually for?

Is it just for him?

Or is there some sort of
exchange culture going on?

Marketplace?

If so, if, you know, that type of plays
into it, but it's more about, you know,

Kevin: it lifestyle business, Rob?

Does he just do it because he loves it?

Rob: Just does because he loves it.

And he know, but how can he
just exist in, on a, on a, moon?

Kevin: On a moon!

Rob: On a, on a, moon where, you know,
doesn't, you could just, it's very odd,

if you think about it too much, I'm
there going, well, god, we all should

live that lifestyle, it's that easy.

Um, but yeah, so like, how Kira deals
with the fact that she no longer, you

know, deals with problems with guns
and, and, and fighting and hiding

and, and stuff like that, she has
to compromise, and there's a great

discussion at the end with her and Sisko.

Sisko going, you know, You have to move,
you have to change, and it doesn't get any

easier, but this is how your life is now,
you have to change, and we need people

like you helping to make these decisions.

And so in end, she burns down, she burns
down his entire place, and beams him up!

Like, the whole

Kevin: That's that's a Kira
situation, uh, that's a Kira

solution if ever I've heard one.

Rob: Yeah, like the whole thing is he
wants to finish building this kiln, so he

Kevin: I've had enough of this farm.

This farm is making me mad.

I'm burning it

Rob: Yeah, she's almost destroyed, she's
almost destroyed a career, The, the

mute, uh, other farmers, they've stabbed
some Bajoran officers, so they've been,

they've been taken with force, um, uh,
and Kira's had to heal him up because he

was shot by a phaser, and, and Sisko's
had to go, look, either you take him

off and, or you've lost your job or
you've lost any type of future with us.

So, she finishes building this kiln
that they've been, he's been wanting

to build an outdoor kiln to cook
bread and all this type of stuff.

They finally finish it and she
just blows it up and then burns

down his plant and goes, You're
leaving now, and we teleport off.

And you go, Jesus!

That took a dark turn very quickly.

Oh, but of course you did!

It's Deep Space Nine.

Kevin: It's an interesting twist
because we were just talking about

an episode of Star Trek where kind
of the point of the farm was to

leave the materialistic things of the
future behind and return to the land.

And almost here, the farm is the
materialistic thing character is attached

to and, and we destroy that so that, uh,
he can get back to a real life in a way.

Rob: Yeah.

He focuses more on the idealism of it so
much, but once you take away the actual

material, that ideal has nowhere to go.

Of course the main threat is,
they need to start processing this

planet, or this moon, and once they
start processing this material, the

planet will become uninhabitable.

It's not a case of they're just
moving them on to have the moon empty.

It needs to be empty, because once they
start processing It's uninhabitable.

And so he's there going, well,
I'll just die here slowly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kevin: The, uh, the setting of the farm
here feels like, as it so often does

in Star Trek, a, a, a means by which
to tell a fish out of water story.

Like we remove our characters
from the familiar uh, convenient

surrounds of a starship and put
them in an agricultural setting

and it brings out different things.

It's like, uh, you know, it's
like breaking the cell phone

in, in, uh, modern, uh, drama.

It forces your characters to find
other ways to solve problems.

Um, and I feel like the, this, the
farm is playing a bit of that role

here as it did in the original series
episode that we were talking about.

Rob: It's, like I said, it's a very big
thing within sci fi and American culture,

like one of my favourite shows of the
90s, Quantum Leap, was, y'know, the big

reveal at the end of, uh, Season 2, when
he leaps into himself as a young man,

is you find out this brilliant, quantum
physicist, scientist who's traveling

through time, was actually raised in
a small country town, where he's farm,

farmer father, and salt of the earth
family, and he, you know, lived in a

small country town where he went to school
and had, you know, had the hots for the

cheerleader and all that type of stuff.

And so it's that case of, American
culture, especially, y'know,

in the 90s and beforehand, not

Kevin: It's more than an American culture.

It's like a particular brand of Americana.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: The midwestern ideal.

Um, yeah.

Like I said, Star Trek might have
a very different feel to it if

the founding American myth was
more, was like a different one

that and they could have chose.

But I guess it all goes back to that
wagon train to the stars that, uh,

gene Roddenberry originally pitched.

Rob: Yeah.

And because it, like, they invest so much
of their own belief within that mythology,

and in some ways, a lot of cultures do.

Australian culture is very
different, it doesn't, y'know,

believe its own rhetoric too much.

Um, but it does what it believes
to be its representation of its

voice, or its iconic view of itself.

You know, Australia's more of the,
everyone has a fair go, the fair dinkum

Aussie, no matter where you're from.

Um, but yeah, it's very tied with that
American, Americana, uh, ideology,

and, uh, you know, God, I was gonna
almost get a bit political and see

how that's been corrupted within the
last, you know, 10, 15, 20 years.

Um, but yeah, there's a lot of time
spent within this episode, getting back

to our topic of farming, where they
talk about the type of food that is

grown there, the type of vegetables,

Kevin: me more about what details
do we get about this farm?

How high tech is it?

Is farm or an animal farm

Rob: A food farm.

We don't see any real animals.

They talk about a type of food
that they're growing and, um,

Kevin: Alien animals are expensive, Rob.

Rob: That's very, very true.

Animation's fine, so you do your
dog pigs, um, and they could be

knocking you around and, you know,
not eating the food properly.

Um, but yeah, they talk about they're
preparing a meal so it has to be cut up in

a particular way and it has to be prepared
for three hours, otherwise it's inedible.

So they're going.

Why would you grow that
type of food anyway?

Um, but yeah, it's definitely, we
know that they're growing this type of

food, well as many others, so it's a

Kevin: Sounds like he's growing
some real bougie food for, uh, for,

uh, like this is, this not, I don't
know, I guess the Bajorans, they have

hasperat and all that stuff going on.

Maybe just all of their
food is inconvenient.

Rob: I should have got the idea
of what type of farm it was when

it was on the moon of Bajor in
the area of the Yarra Valley.

It was, um there was a lot of
upper middle class Bajorans hanging

out there, wanting to get that
authentic, sustainable experience.

Kevin: Yes.

For our out of towners, you're listening,
the Yarra Valley is a particularly hippie

section of, uh, northeast Melbourne.

Rob: Yeah, all the hipster, you
know, upper middle class people

go there to connect with a more
rustic way of living, um, in a

very, very, controlled environment.

Um, but yeah, so you get a bit of sense
of the food that's made, the, you know,

the rustic living lifestyle, it's, it's
a, you know, and there's a really cool

way of like how doors are opened and
the setup, so you see, like, pulley

systems, and they're on angles, and
how they open and close, it's, um, and

how the symbols of how the architecture
matches the, the communicators and

the symbolism of, I love those type of
connections with Bajoran culture, and,

Kevin: Yeah, here in season one they
would have still been in full fledged

world building for the Bajoran, uh,

Rob: Very much.

This, yeah, to have an episode
based on Bajoran culture that wasn't

so tied with the vedeks or the
spiritual nature of the culture.

It's like, of all the races that we
have within, or the cultures that we

have within Star Trek, the Bajorans
are the most spiritual, definitely.

It's a, it's a religion based society,
um, that everything else, and that

spirituality is a lot more tangible
than, uh, many others, of course, with

prophets and the, the orbs of whatever.

But um, yeah, it's a, the farming plays in
the background, but they add just enough

tantalizing detail, so it's not just that
case of little bits of detail that make

you go, it's not just Here is a farm,
here is the type of stuff they're growing.

But when you go a little bit deeper, well,
what are they growing this stuff for?

Just themselves?

Or are they trading it?

Or is there a marketplace just around
the corner, on, further down the set?

Um, but it's that, yeah, idealism
versus materialism versus, uh,

you know, the needs of the many
outweigh the needs of the one.

Kevin: Yeah, so, it seems like what
we're seeing here as a pattern is

that, like, the farm is a, a change of
pace location, or a way of putting our

characters in an unfamiliar situation.

And for us as viewers, it's an
opportunity to see, that the future

isn't all technology, that there is,
there are patches of agrarian existence

that, uh, survive, whether, whether
as a, as an idealized expression of

American culture or, or just, uh,
just something a little different.

Rob: There is that, there is that
appeal of going so fantastical with your

scientific vision, but you can connect
it with that morality or that sense of

simplicity from a contemporary time.

And Star Trek does it, tries to do it
better than anyone else, like, there's

the Voyager episode when there's,
they've got the figures from history,

and one of them's from Woodstock.

And so this whole sense of yeah, and
Tom Paris is so connected with ancient

technology and culture, um, even though
ancient is a couple of hundred years in

the past, and I don't think we describe
anything from 300 years ago ancient.

Kevin: No but I, I guess it's a, for me
it's a, It's a It's a tool for creating

contrast in Star Trek is that if you take
your, your uniformed high tech phaser and

tricorder using Starfleet officer or, uh,
uh, officer in the Bajoran militia, as

the case may be, and you plop them down
in a field with no other technology in

sight, it creates an interesting contrast
that creates storytelling possibilities.

And I feel like that's normally what
Star Trek reaches for farms to do.

Rob: Yeah, especially because Star Trek
is very much about our society here,

and how that has evolved in the future.

As opposed to, say, like, Star
Wars, where they have farm

life, but it's moisture farming.

Kevin: was gonna, I was
gonna, mention moisture

Rob: Whereas in Star Trek,
it's very much a case of, you

know, if we're not a farm of

Kevin: Don't make me talk about
Star Trek V and the field of

holes, speaking of moisture farms.

Rob: But, you know, we have you know,
they're growing plants, they're growing

crops, um, as opposed to it's like one
of the iconic moments from Interstellar

by Chris, uh, by Christopher Nolan,
that enormous space station which kinda

curves around on itself, but there's
like a crop field, and you've got, know,

uh, Matthew McConaughey there with his
uh, his you know, hyper huge technology

robot, and he's just sitting on an old
school wooden, uh, patio with beer in

his hand, and, you know, regular jeans
and a flannel going, all right, all

right, all right, surrounded by all this

Kevin: The old and the new and
the some things never change.

Rob: Yeah, and just, yeah, we see
that in Star Trek V, not, not, not

the farmholes, definitely, you know,
Kirk, McCoy, and Spock going farming,

singing, row, row, row, row, row, row,
row, row, row, row, row, row your boat.

Kevin: That's right, yes.

Rob: Even if life is but a dream.

Kevin: It always leads
back to Star Trek V.

Rob: back to Star Trek V, man.

Kevin: What we don't realize
is Star Trek 5 is the nexus

of the Star Trek, uh, canon.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, and Malcolm
McDowell's trying to get there.

That would have made Generations
far more interesting.