Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

We are here to talk about
Lower Decks, season five,

episode six Of Gods and Angles.

Rob, welcome back.

Rob: Angles!

Get it?

So

Kevin: It took me a while.

I did not notice till today.

It's been a week since I watched
this episode for the first time.

And until I sat down to write
the notes for the podcast today,

I did not notice the swap there.

Rob: Yeah, I didn't notice it until, uh, I
was a bit quicker, I, I noticed, when the

title came up after the opening titles,
I went, oh, that's very good, very good.

Kevin: Yes, yes, yes.

Uh, lots of quick things that
you could miss in this episode.

Um, we had a peace talks
aboard the Cerritos between

the cubes and the spheres.

And we had Olly.

We got to meet Olly, the, uh,
the granddaughter of Zeus, if you

will, from the original series
episode, Who Mourns for Adonais?

Rob: And of course we had the
third story of Boimler trying to,

uh, form a bond with the Doctor.

Kevin: Boimler trying to
get the nickname Flip.

Bizarre, uh, yes, and all he gets for
his trouble is a lightning bolt in his

butt, but he does get invited to the book

Rob: He gets invited to the book club.

Um, so yeah, that's been
becoming more prominent now.

Uh, Boimler is, has been trying to
actively hide the, uh, the artifact

that he has taken from the parallel
universe, but it is being noticed.

Kevin: The bevel is slightly different.

Also, it's red.

Rob: I'm your flatmate, dude.

I see everything.

Uh, so yes, it's become, yeah, this is
becoming more and more, his beard is

becoming more and more, and, uh, Boimler
is trying to become the Riker version of

himself, um, in whatever means possible.

And he doesn't care what timeline,
what, uh, parallel universe, or

whatever anomaly he is creating, he
will become the cool version of himself.

Kevin: What did you make of Boimler
roping Rutherford into this mission

to to kind of recreate the good
parts of the alternate universe?

I was surprised that it's not just Boimler
that Rutherford's like totally on board.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me,
Rutherford's always totally on board for

Rob: Yes, yes, he really is.

I think it's a good way of, um,
connecting Boinler within the world

again, because we, that process has,
can be quite, uh, you know, isolating.

And for our final season,
we want him connected.

We want him a part of the crew,
a part of his team, a part of his

lower deckers that he's a part of.

So for Rutherford to just
go, I'm in dude, let's do it.

Um, is, it's fantastic.

Even though Rutherford's throwing
shade pretty much all the way through.

I love that, uh, process of
going, all right, let's do this.

I think you're pushing it a bit too hard.

No, I've got to do this.

Um, and I'm looking forward to seeing
how that evolves and how much Rutherford

embraces this process as well.

Kevin: The cube and
sphere aliens were fun.

It was a, it's a bit, I don't
know, it is deliberately

stereotypical Star Trek, I suppose.

You know, it's the cubes and,
I don't know, am I just am I

just cynical this week, Rob?

Rob: ha ha ha ha ha ha

Kevin: Were they like not
trying especially hard to come

up with an original idea here?

I mean, it was, it was in the text.

What are they doing?

Oh, they're just becoming,
they could become anything.

They're just becoming a
larger cube and sphere.

They have no creativity at all.

Rob: They're forming something, oh no,
it's just a bigger sphere and a bigger.

They have no creative.

Yeah, that was awesome.

I think what they're in I mean,
calling themselves out for them

being lazy is not, uh, Is not a way
of acknowledging that you're smart.

It's just going, Oh, well, you
know, you're being lazy and trying

to pull it out and say, Oh, we're
actually clever by saying it's lazy.

No, it's still lazy.

Um, there could be an element of
looking at, of going all those type of

conflicts because, you know, There is
a potential to look at the diplomacy

within Star Trek and how that reflects
on our diplomacy within our own society.

That's good sci fi.

So to, uh, strip it back down to just the
most barest of issues of, I'm a, you know,

I have angles, I am smooth, we cannot
connect, is just stripping everything

back, and so no matter what your problems
are, it could be looked upon as going,

you know, almost ridiculous, to that point
of going, that's what sci fi is meant

to do, of going, you know, we're all the
same, we all may look different, but our

differences don't make us who we are.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Or maybe I'm
looking into it too much.

Kevin: What did you make of
Olly, our demigod this week?

You, you probably haven't seen that

Rob: I haven't seen that episode, it
was easy to pick up where they're going.

It's interesting because last week's
episode where we had Starbase 80,

we had a prominent female character
be the regular guest within that

episode, and now they've had in the
next episode, another prominent female

character is, who connects with Mariner.

So that's two weeks in a row.

But there's all those I don't know if it's
because we've watched it long enough or

maybe the writing's getting more obvious,
I could pick things up straight away.

I picked up there going, well,
whatever her charge is, that's

going to connect in some way.

The reason why she's stuffing up is
because of the charge and no one's

acknowledging it, so it has to be
brought up because we're seeing it

and that's going to be the, the, the.

You know, the deus ex machina at the

Kevin: Yeah, they weren't exactly
hiding the fact that Olly was basically

meant to be a reflection of how far
Mariner has come that, um, and like

you said, it's two episodes in a row.

I feel like we are reflecting on how
far Mariner in particular has matured

and, and so Olly is the screw up who
is at risk of being thrown off the

ship with every choice she makes.

And that was Mariner at
the start of the series.

It was Mariner relatively recently in
the series, as you like to point out.

Rob: It depends however she's written.

Kevin: Yes, but I felt like they
were laying it on a bit thick that

that Olly even is, at least at
the beginning, even more unlikable

and I feel like unsalvageable

Rob: I think

Kevin: the beginning of this episode.

Rob: there's, there were definitely,
and it took a while for, you know, it

wasn't until right near the end, I guess,
where you kind of go, oh, all right.

But no, she was a lot more annoying
than Mariner and a lot more going, well,

you're not kind of helping your cause and
I don't really feel that sorry for you.

Kevin: Yeah, well, she ends up in
the brig at the end, which is nice

that, uh, there was a comeuppance.

Rob: And yes, very much so, and
I love that moment of Mariner

going, I'm saying here, let's
talk through all this stuff, okay?

You know, you've got a
friend no matter what.

You've got

Kevin: I recognize this,

Rob: Yes.

Um, but yeah, there was obvious stuff
there going, okay, I can pull that, and

it was, how, did you, did you pick it?

With, uh, the cubes and, uh, the spheres?

The orbs.

Kevin: That, that the young
ones would be in love?

Uh, no, I guess not.

In part because, like, they, it, it
wasn't all there to, you know, For

us to discover the, the other young,
the young sphere being lost too was

reserved until the, the shouting
started in the, in the negotiations.

And at that point it was just, um, I
feel like it was past the point where

we were investigating a mystery and
now we were dealing with a crisis.

Uh, and so at, at the point where they
were trying to put the clues together, I

was like, nah, I don't know what it is.

And looking back, Um, it wasn't
there for us to see, either.

Rob: Yeah,

Kevin: Did you assume trashed
quarters, ooh, there was some sexy

Rob: Um, well, I always do.

That's just me

Kevin: ha.

Rob: Um, but yeah, it was that drop of,
you know, because they tried to imply

that maybe Olly had something to do with
it, but then that was a red herring, and

then the drop of the other one missing.

As soon as that going, I
went, well, they're in love.

And we're going to have a
Romeo and Juliet situation.

The only way that this can be resolved
is, you know, it's a story trait

from, you know, that's been there
since the dawn of time of going two,

two forces aren't working together.

Then there's gonna be a young love
story that brings it together.

And then the added bonus of
they have produced a child

who's created a new shape.

Kevin: SquAaron.

Which, I was trying to figure out,
how does that, how is that half

cube, half circle, and it's not.

It's just the word square
with Aaron tacked on the

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin: Fun, funny episode.

Uh, the, I think, for me, the most
obscure reference we have gotten

yet in Lower Decks, where, um, where
Rutherford confronts Boimler about his

red PADD, and says, You're studying
up on the alternate universe, right?

And Boimler goes, Ho ho,
alternate universe, good joke.

We got a real Ronald B.

Moore over here, working
on your stand up, eh?

Ronald B.

Moore, uh, not D.

Moore, not the writer.

Rob: Ronald D.

Moore the writer.

Kevin: Ronald B.

Moore was a, a, uh, a visual
effects artist, I understand,

on The Next Generation, but
his name does appear on screen.

In the episode where Data goes to the
holodeck to try to understand humor,

and he conjures a stand up comic to
teach him how to tell jokes, the little

control panel where he's setting up
the program on the holodeck says,

says, Um, the comic's name is Ronald B.

Moore, and it just blinks
on screen in tiny text.

And they salvaged that name out
of, uh, Star Trek history to

Rob: Who was the actual comedian they got?

Was it Joe Piscopo?

Kevin: Joe Piscopo, yeah, yeah.

Rob: Yep, yep.

The other only surviving member of one of
the worst years of Saturday Night Live.

Him and, uh, Eddie Murphy, were
pretty much, yeah, ones who kept the

show going when it was at its lowest
point, with the Dick Emersol era.

Kevin: So yeah, Ronald B.

Moore, not named on screen until,
uh, in, in dialogue until now,

he was just referred to as Mr.

Comic in the, uh, in the TNG episode.

But, um, yeah, the name was
pulled off of a view screen

and brought back for us here.

Rob: I can't believe there was a Ronald B.

and a Ronald D.

Moore.

Kevin: Yeah.

Very confusing.

I guess that's why they, I guess that's
why we know their middle initials because

they had to use them around the set to,
to make it clear who they were talking

Rob: That's weird, because like
in the UK, if you've got the same,

like, you know, um, uh, they have
to change their name completely.

Like Michael Keaton, his
actual name is Michael Douglas.

Kevin: Oh,

Rob: Yeah.

And David Tennant's real name is
David McDonald, but there was another

actor, so he took, uh, Tennant from
Neil Tennant from the Pet Shop Boys.

Kevin: Well, good

Rob: Yeah, there you go.

And Peter Davison, the fifth Doctor,
his real name is Peter Moffat.

But there was a director called Peter
Moffat, so he took the name Peter Davison.

And that's why his daughter Georgia
Moffat is called Georgia Moffat,

and she's married to David Tennant.

Kevin: Nothing is real!

Rob: Nothing is real, Ronald B.

Moore, come and tell us a joke, please.

Kevin: Uh, I did not love that the secret
powers were squidgy lightning bolts.

Those, those like squishy 3D
lightning bolts did not do it for me.

Rob: Look, yeah, it was just a means
to an end to get to the fact that,

you know, the doctor and Boimler now
finally connect, even though she was

ripping him a new one when he started

Kevin: What did you say to me?

Yeah,

Rob: We haven't seen the doctor that
much, and then, you know, in one

episode, it's great to have her back.

Why isn't she there more?

Kevin: Yeah, so we're going to
talk about other non organic

life, uh, or non humanoid life.

Take it, spin it however you
want, just like, uh, you would a

sphere floating in the air, Rob.

Um, uh, we've talked about understanding
non humanoid life in the past.

But, uh, for me, this episode
was less about the communication

challenges, like, because they
could speak English very clearly.

And this, this was more about
how do you deal with people who

don't have arms and legs, uh,
wandering around your, your episode.

So I've gone back and, and,
uh, seen where that takes me.

I've got some original
series and some Next Gen.

What did you bring?

Rob: Actually, yeah, this has been a
tricky one for me, but I've, um, I'm not

sure if I've mentioned them before, but
I'll bring up, um, sort of like talk about

the, this, yeah, I've got a couple from
the movie and, um, from Deep Space Nine.

So, yeah, we'll see how we

Kevin: Okay, very good.

I'll start with my two episodes, and
this is something that I think these non

corporeal, non humanoid, uh, beings, seem
to function as in Star Trek at times.

We certainly saw it last
week on Starbase 80.

Often non humanoid life can just be
an excuse to make some bizarre crap

happen and just kind of wave your
hands at the end of the episode and

goes, Hey, you know, it's non corporeal
life, who knows what they can do.

Rob: on.

Kevin: So the first one I'm
thinking of is season three,

episode 22 of the original series.

So like the third to last episode
that was made, um, not, not generally

considered a great one, but, uh, this
is The Savage Curtain, which opens

with the Enterprise encountering
President Abraham Lincoln in space.

Rob: Right.

Kevin: You may have seen a still of this
at times, but it's literally President

Lincoln, large as life, sitting in
a, in a throne of some kind, floating

in space in the view screen of the
Enterprise, uh, and Kirk and Spock

going, well, this doesn't make sense,
but I guess we should play along.

And they beam him on board
the ship and give him a tour.

McCoy and Scotty are outraged
that Kirk is taking this obvious

imposter at his, at face value.

Uh, and they, they, uh, they confront
him in the briefing room and Kirk

goes, Of course, it's an alien!

What do you think?

I'm crazy?

Of course, it's an alien.

But what are we going to do?

Uh, the only, we're here to meet aliens.

So we got to play along a little bit
just to understand until we know more.

Uh, they end up beaming down to this
planet that starts, they're orbiting

this planet at the episode and it's all
molten lava, but, uh, but a space of Earth

like conditions appears on the surface,
just big enough for them to beam down.

And there's a great debate about whether
they should beam down or not, or whether

they're beaming down to their death.

There's a fair bit of kinda stretching it
out here, uh, at the end of the series.

And, um, if you go back and watch
this, tell me if you feel the same,

but everyone just looks a little tired.

They know it's over and they're just
like, I guess we'll ride it out.

They inevitably beam down and it turns
out it's not just Abraham Lincoln.

There are some other historical
figures awaiting them.

There is Genghis Khan, there is Surak
of Vulcan, the, uh, the creator of the

Vulcan philosophy of, of non emotionality.

And then, uh, there is Colonel
Green who is some human mass

murderer from the eugenics wars that
we've never seen before or since.

There is a woman who
is introduced as Zora.

She's in some really dramatic
eye shadow and hair makeup.

She has no lines.

She almost throws a spear at one
point and Colonel Green goes, No!

And she backs off.

And that's the most she
gets to do in this episode.

And there is Kahless the Unforgettable.

There is first on screen
appearance of Kahless, the Klingon

Rob: Wow.

Kevin: deity here.

Um, so yeah, all of these historical
figures have been created, and half

of them are good and half of them
are evil, and there is the, uh,

titular non humanoid life form.

In this case, it's a boulder that
before our very eyes transforms

into a man in a boulder suit.

With, with claws and
blinking lights on its head.

And, uh, he introduces himself as a
representative of the Excalbians, of

which there are thousands watching as
we speak, but we only ever see the one

guy because they could only afford one,
they could only afford one costume.

And he says, like, we are
here to understand your human

concepts of good and evil.

We do not understand them, and
we have no equivalent concepts.

So we would like to pit them against each
other in combat to see which is stronger.

And it's, it is a very pat
sci fi concept at this point.

And the rest of the episode plays out of
just these two groups making You know,

spears and rocks to throw at each other.

And, and the good, the good group tries
to avoid conflict and the bad group

strings them along and betrays them.

And eventually it comes to fisticuffs.

Uh, Surak and, um, President Lincoln
give their lives in the pursuit

of peace, which is, uh, which
turns out to be not on the table.

But thankfully Kirk and Spock,
uh, have enough fists between them

that they fight off the rest of the
group, um, who, who run in fear.

And then the Exalbian at the end says,
um, well, that, that accomplished nothing.

I can see no difference in the methods
of these good and evil, except that evil

apparently flees when confronted directly.

And Kirk, Kirk tries to
make the point that we were

fighting for different things.

But the Excalbians are having none of
it, and they return them to their ship,

and that's the end of the episode.

Rob: Great.

Well, wonderful.

A lesson,

Kevin: Yeah, like I was saying at the
start, the non corporeal life here is

just, you know, the ability to introduce
magical occurrences that are never

quite explained, so the fact that these
people from history are brought back

to life, various, you know, the ship
is held in space and threatened with

its engines exploding and all of these
things are done telepathically by these

Excalbians whose powers seem unfathomable.

And that seems to be the purpose of
this truly alien life here is that,

uh, that they can do anything and,
and they are, they seem all powerful.

And, you know, we've talked about this
before when there are no rules, the

science fiction becomes less satisfying.

Rob: Very true.

Very true indeed.

You need to set the parameters so
then you can play within that and

then we know everything that's going
on, kind of like an impro scene.

Set everything up and
then you know where to go.

Kevin: That's right.

So yeah, there is no real, um, um, circle
of truth in this, uh, in this episode.

They just keep piling on the unlikely
occurrences until they have enough to

justify a fistfight to end the episode.

Rob: Ah, the 60s.

They keep on giving us so
much in the way of the fist.

Kevin: The Savage Curtain is, this episode
is best known not for the appearance

of Abraham Lincoln, Surak, and Kahless,
but it is best known for a conversation

with Uhura that happens on the bridge.

Uh, she, while, uh, Lincoln and Kirk
are conversing on the bridge, she walks

up with her report for the captain
and, uh, and, um, Lincoln turns to

her and says, ah, A charming Negress,
and then, you know, realizes he

said the wrong thing and apologizes.

And Uhura says, that's
okay, don't worry about it.

Here in the future, we've
learned not to fear words.

And he says, oh, I apologize
for apologizing then.

And, and that's the scene.

And it, it is very clunky and awkward,
but um, but it gives Nichelle Nichols

some, some lines about something other
than a communication, uh, procedure.

And it is satisfying for that.

Rob: Good on you, Nichelle.

Uh, we um, we miss ya.

Kevin: Uh, do you want to do one
before I talk about my other episode?

Rob: So I was just gonna sort of
like do a drive by, because we have

mentioned them in previous episodes.

But yeah, there's a little hint in,
uh, The Motion Picture of the, the,

the beings that send V'ger back,
were sort of like non humanoid, non

humanoid sort of like mechanical
slash electrical type of beings.

But

Kevin: Yeah, they give us, every time
they remake that movie, they give us

a little more of a hint just through
like a visual effect of like the

machine planet that, that remade V'ger.

Rob: never, see them, but we hear little
bits more of tantalizing stuff about them.

And like we talked about before,
we would, I'd love to see that.

I mean, yeah, you know,
do we bring them back?

Because I think it'd be cool, but then
you go, oh, but the mystery of it is

Kevin: Yeah, it might be better
in our imaginations, but yeah.

Rob: Then of course we jump ahead to
Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home, where

of course the probe is not the actual
species, the probe is from this life

form that communicates with the humpback
whales, that is beyond anything that

we are aware of, technology, and so
there's a fascinating insight into

this larger creature, or species,
that is beyond human understanding.

Kevin: That is, uh, that's the one that
we discussed last time we talked about,

like, understanding non humanoid life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That is a pattern.

I feel like, uh, Nomad is the,
the other one where we get a hint

of, of, uh, something beyond our
understanding that has sent an artifact.

Um, maybe the Doomsday Machine is another
example, although we are, we are asked to

infer that the creators of that machine
are now dead by their, their own hands.

They made too perfect a weapon and
it, and it, it killed them for it.

Um, but yeah, there is a, a recurring
pattern of these, uh, mysterious aliens

of presumably non humanoid origins

Rob: what,

Kevin: that,

Rob: yeah.

And one last one I wanted to mention,
whether, whether there is something

there, is in Star Trek Generations, is
the Nexus, is the Nexus, is that some

sort of elevated form of intelligence?

Because you see, Whoever is within
the Nexus gets the perfect life that

they want and so there must be some
sort of being or entity connected that

can understand and yeah, for me, I'm

Kevin: That's an
interesting reading of it.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

It's not the way I've watched it.

I've always kind of thought of the
Nexus as a natural phenomenon and that

there's something about, you know, the
radiation that messes with your, your

consciousness and that the, the, you
getting what you want is actually just a

hallucination created of your own psyche.

But, uh, I, I think you could
read it your way as well.

Rob: Yeah, and so like how can
these figures, humanoid forms

survive within there and be, you
know, brought back and forth.

For me, that's more than just it.

Like it could be just sci fi waving
of hands, but I've always had this

thought in my head of going, is there
a intelligence beyond, is there a

being beyond the connected with that?

That's just something I, uh, has played
in my head for, for quite some time.

And I thought I'd throw it out there, and,
um, And see what you thought about it.

Kevin: Uh, well, I've never thought
that deeply about the Nexus.

But, uh, yeah, that's
an interesting thought.

Maybe it was like, uh, it was a,
uh, I don't know, a theme park

or a holiday getaway for some,
uh, for some non corporeal beings

Rob: yeah.

Kevin: they wanted to go
someplace nice, they went to the

Rob: Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

So, yes.

I never thought I'd think that deep about,
um, Generations either, but there we are.

Kevin: Yeah.

Um, my, my second one was from The Next
Generation, uh, and this is season two,

episode two, where silence has lease.

And this is another example of non
humanoid life being an excuse for

a bunch of inexplicable crap to
happen, uh, and then to be waved

away at the end of the episode.

So I, um, I remember liking
this episode the first time I

watched it, way back in 1988.

And I think the reason I liked it is it
is, It is very much just a procedural.

Rob: Yep.

Kevin: The crew, the main cast of the
show is dealing with a escalating string

of inexplicable crap, like I said,
and doing it so professionally, so

unflappably that it almost beggars belief.

And watching it now with a critical
eye, I'm like, it is, it is too far.

Like when things are that bananas,
the fact that they can just take it

in stride and then like joke about it
between more serious lines of dialogue

is, is just, uh, it does not quite play.

Like these people don't seem human
to me anymore in this episode.

But, um, yeah, it, it's, it's,
uh, there's a hole in space.

The whole cold open is, is, uh,
Um, is a character piece for Worf.

Worf and Riker are just like doing
calisthenics on the, on the holodeck

and, uh, Picard on the bridge is
worried about his first officer and

it's just like, let's establish that
Worf is a scary dude, has nothing

to do with the rest of the episode.

But once the episode starts,
they encounter a hole in space.

They send one probe into it.

And it disappears.

They send a better probe
into it and it disappears.

There are many long minutes
of, well, what should we do?

Well, here's what the procedures say.

Let's try this.

Let's try that.

Let's debate.

Should we shoot a photon torpedo into it?

No, Mr.

Worf, that's too, uh,
that's too heavy handed.

Like there is a lot of like reasonable
debate among reasonable people about what

to do about this scientific curiosity.

And then at a certain point,
the hole makes it easy for them.

It, it, it It expands around them and
suddenly they're inside this void.

And again, they go through the
motions of trying to figure

out what happened to them.

They leave a buoy and they, they
fly in a straight line away from

the buoy while it's pinging.

And then the pings get
fainter and fainter.

And then guess what, Rob?

They start coming louder again,
they've gone in a circle, even though

they're flying in a straight line.

And it just, it, it feels so cliche
now, looking back, that it's almost

like playing Star Trek completely
straight with, with completely

unbelievable things happening, but no
actual drama arising out of any of it.

It is so weird, the, the tone.

I feel like this is partly the
symptom of the writer's room

fracas that was happening around
season two of The Next Gen.

They were, they were
still finding the show.

Crusher had left, this is one
of Pulaski's first episodes.

I feel like they were dealing with a new
writer's room as well, who were still

trying to come to grips with the show.

And so they couldn't quite figure
out, this, this feels very much

like a filler episode to me.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: There's a, the, a Romulan
warbird decloaks and they destroy

it with the shot, with a shot of
a single photon torpedo and Picard

goes, well, that was too easy.

And then, uh, And then, uh, another
Galaxy class ship appears and they, they

identify as the Yamato, the Enterprise's,
uh, sister ship, and they beam over to

the bridge of it, but they arrive in
two different corridors, Riker and Worf,

hear each other screaming and they run
towards each other and almost shoot

each other with phasers but they don't.

And then they walk through a door and
they're on the bridge even though the

bridge should be somewhere else completely
and they walk through one of the doors of

the bridge and they are on another bridge.

And it's just like stringing out all of
these like improbable, unexplained things.

And at the end of it, it was,
they were rats in a maze of this

being, Nagilum, who is just a green
distorted face on the view screen

who says, I wanted to understand you.

And he wants, the last thing he
needs to understand is death.

And it will only cost you half your crew.

I'm going to experiment with all
the different ways of killing them.

And.

And, and then when we're
done, you can be on your way.

Uh, and so, Picard, uh, and Riker decide
to, uh, turn on the self destruct system.

And it's the, the first self destruct
bluff in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

It counts down to the
last second, of course.

And, uh, Nagilum releases them.

The end.

So, yeah.

Um, You can tell I am not, not exactly
singing the praises of this episode,

but at least early on in Star Trek,
it feels like these, these, um, non

corporeal or, or non humanoid life forms
are often used this way as a source

of magic a source of apparent magic.

Rob: Yes, and it does seem to play through
all of Star Trek of that case the, the,

the bigger we go in concept of outside
of our, you know, normal tangibility,

then we, we veer on the side of magic.

Kevin: Yeah.

So yeah, there are some charming vignettes
in this as we watch our professionals

professionally deal with stuff.

But, uh, yeah, you know, Dr.

Pulaski at one point goes, Why do I feel
like I picked the wrong week to join this

Rob: Ha Ha ha ha ha ha

Kevin: And it felt like subtext to me.

Rob: Love it.

Kevin: And watching this and making this
observation about non corporeal life in

Star Trek, I couldn't help thinking of,
uh, the Prophets or the Wormhole Aliens.

And I wondered if you wanted
to talk about the Prophets,

Rob: Well, there's, there's two I
wanted to kind of talk about because

they're both in Deep Space Nine.

There's the Prophets,
but also the Founders.

Um, and we've, and we've kind of talked
about the, the Prophets before, and I

think, did we talk about them during,
um, uh, how to communicate with,

Kevin: Uh, not according to my notes,
no, and maybe we have, but I think

that, um, that certain way they have of
communicating that was established in

The Emissary of like, flash of light,
you're in a situation you've been in

before with a person you've been in
before, but that person is speaking the

words of these aliens who have something,
um, ephemeral to communicate to you

and they're speaking at it obliquely,
so you have to spend the rest of the

episode figuring out what they meant.

Rob: And you go from one location
to the next and the figure

changes to people you know.

Kevin: and it's disorienting.

And it's like, it's magical.

I think it is magical in a good way,
just because it is theatrical, like, or

cinematic, this, this feeling of, I'm in a
place, maybe it's an uncomfortable place.

It's an emotionally charged
place, but I'm not actually there.

And I'm having to absorb
this unrelated information.

It's, it's It really knocks our
characters off balance, often Sisko,

uh, in a way that I do think I enjoy.

Rob: I enjoy them as well, but they do
very little in the way of developing.

They're always there to
appear when they're needed.

So, another deus ex machina.

But, um, but yeah, so, that's why I
was kind of thinking about focusing on

the Founders, because we see, so much
more about this clearly and, you know,

they describe humanoid forms as Solids.

Um, and so, we find out a little
bit more and more as they go along.

Like, Odo's story is intrinsically
connected to them, obviously.

And this whole process of just how
brutal a culture it is and how they

just send out, you know, parts of
their existence who don't know who

they are, to just learn and absorb, and
then they'll be brought at some point.

And how Odo talks about his early
years, he didn't know what to do.

He was just a, he was conscious in
this blob form, but he didn't know how

to form shapes or how to communicate.

And so that became a part of that process
and through pain, he could take shapes

and that's how he communicated, um, how

Kevin: I regret that we never, we never
really got that story told on screen in a,

in a way that dealt with the wonder of
that at face value, like, that allowed

the Founders to, uh, to be that explorate,
that, that race that explores in that way,

feel like by the time we met Odo, the
damage was done and he looked back on

his experience of being tortured into
shapes as, as abuse and, and rightly so.

And then even in Picard season three,
where we got some changelings and we

got to, to meet some, you know, uh, and
see some glimpses of those early days

with the changelings, the Founders.

Um, still it was in the setting of
a torture chamber and it was, it

was an evil thing that was done.

I would love to have, like, maybe
this is a Short Trek that we can

get at some point, but I would love
to see a short story of a hopeful

outcome of that means of exploration.

not on Earth, but it's somewhere out

Rob: There is a beautiful storyline when
Odo, you know, kills another changeling.

So they take away his ability.

They turn him into a solid, so he faces
judgement and they turn him into a solid,

which is incredibly mysterious and never
solved and a little bit magic, but upon

his time as a solid, he, um, he comes
across, uh, one of these lost, uh, orphan,

uh, Founders, and he purposefully goes
against how he was raised, and he does,

he nurtures this creature, he talks to
it about you're a changeling, you can be

anything, and helps it, and unfortunately,
you know, Uh, through, through storylines

and stuff like that, Odo gets sick and
the, the, and so the creature, the, the

Founder absorbs itself within to Odo
to save his life and then he became,

becomes a, a, uh, uh, a changeling again,
and has that beautiful moment he runs

and turns into a bird on the Promenade.

Um, but yeah, so there's little
intrinsic elements there.

The one thing that always got me, and
I've talked about this multiple episodes,

when another Founder shows up, they have
the exact same facial structure as Odo.

Um, and Odo formed that because he
is not advanced enough, and he's

never been able to get the lines.

There's another episode where they're
trapped on the promenade, like, the

alternate universe where everyone's
trapped, uh, on the and they die, and

their, and their culture continues, but
Odo's still there, and he's been there

for what, a couple of generations, so he's

Kevin: He's refined his

Rob: Yeah, so I always thought
he could do that, and these

founders are so much more advanced.

I always, every time the wonderful actress
came out in complete Odo face, I went, Ah.

Kevin: Missed opportunity.

Rob: It's more like, it's not, it's
through 90s eyes, and I've gone, you,

you've already touched it there, you
could have got, yeah, they could have

been completely humanoid looking,
and that would have worked, um, or

taken whatever shape they wanted, um,
but they wanted to keep it connected

for, cause, yeah, they didn't, I, I
can only assume they, you know, they

didn't value the intelligence of the
audience going, no one can understand.

But there's, through the seven years, they
brought little elements of the culture,

the, you know, how the Great Link and
you can all share each other's thoughts.

And when Odo was disconnected from
that, he, you know, the pain he felt

when he first connected with it for
the first time, all that type of stuff.

Um, and how ultimately he goes
back to save his people because

they're dying of a similar disease.

Um, yeah, that over the seven years,
we get tantalizing Advancements of

that culture that is completely non
humanoid, even though they have to

use subterfuge and stay within that.

Kevin: They do a good enough job with the
Founders that it, it makes me want to see

more of what, what is a hopeful story?

What is a story of their, their culture?

What would an episode that takes place
entirely within the Great Link be like?

But that is also the challenge
of these non humanoid life forms

is that they are so alien, so
unrecognizable, that it's hard to read.

It's hard to tell stories with them
that we can empathize with, with eyes.

Rob: Prodigy with, uh, with Zero.

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: um, becoming, you know, becoming
more in humanoid form and that

kind of takes away from the beauty
of their non corporeal nature.

Kevin: And lest we forget, Murf,
who they've had to turn into a

gummy bear in order to make us feel

Rob: Ex.

Exactly.

Murf could have been anything.

And he became the
quintessential gummy bear.