Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello and welcome
everybody, we are back.

We've been off for a little bit,
but, you know, we just couldn't leave

this halfway through, not completed.

We need to get back and talk
about all things Star Trek.

We have episode seven of Lower Decks
to talk about here on Subspace Radio.

I am, of course, Rob.

Kevin: And I'm Kevin.

Happy 2025, Rob.

Rob: We are in the future.

Yes, I think we've made
this joke a couple of times

Kevin: Well, we're extra in the
future now because I don't think

it's worth beating about the bush.

I have seen the end of this season.

I believe you have as well.

Rob: Very much so.

So we are going back in time to
do the episodes we haven't done to

catch up where everybody else is.

Kevin: You know, work life balance.

We enjoyed our holidays.

We watched our Star Trek recreationally.

But now we're back to do the
professional job that you listen in

for every single episode, listeners.

Rob: That's right.

We've done enough R& R and, uh,
Romulans and Relaxation and,

uh, and Ractachinos as well.

And now we've, yeah, three R's, and
now we're back into the hard hitting,

serious business, professional business
of talking about, analyzing, and

evaluating Star Trek as you all have come
to love with us here at Subspace Radio.

Kevin: So what did you make of the purple
Enterprise here in Fully Dilated, Rob?

Rob: Um, I had a great
time with this episode.

It was a, uh, a quite, uh,
High energy, high camp episode.

We really leant into the cartoon
nature and the animated nature of

this, what with Boimler and Rutherford
back and their, you know, minutes

of disaster trying to solve the

Kevin: Those screaming scenes of madly
scrubbing the shrimp off of the, uh,

transporter, control panel at times
with their tongues were very cartoony.

I will

Rob: Very cartoony, and also the lurking.

Uh, native uh, on the planet

Kevin: Shout out to a friend of the
show, Jason Snell, who, uh, guested one,

one episode while you were away, Rob.

Um, yes, he, he, he's immortalized as
Snell in this episode of Lower Decks.

Rob: I hope he does a very
good Snell impersonation.

Nyeh,

Kevin: Nyeh!

Rob: My lurking has paid off.

And of course we could not go, uh, as
the headline mentioned, yeah, we always

mention the best to last, the man who
would never go back to Star Trek and

now has come back to Star Trek, um,
in, you know, in many different forms,

uh, Brett Spiner came back for, uh,
to play Commander Data one more time.

Kevin: Would never come back to Star
Trek, except every single time, uh,

the, the, the piles of money must
be piling up that they, they need

to pull out to, to get him back.

I suspect the fact that he was only
expected to turn up to a recording

booth, not put on any kind of uniform
or, or make up or contact lenses

probably made a big difference in
selling this opportunity to him.

Rob: I believe that was probably very
appealing to him, um, but it was indeed

great to have him interact, um, so
beautifully with, with especially the,

uh, the members of the away mission, um,
and just gushing, as all Lower Deckers

are, about just saying how much they are
in love with, with, with Commander Data.

Kevin: You're so cool.

I am cool?

Then why does my warmth surprise you?

Rob: Hehehehehehe.

How did you find this episode?

Kevin: Uh, well, you know, I think we,
we need to acknowledge and move past

just the, the nostalgia filled delight of
getting to see not just Brent Spiner back,

but like vanilla Data, I'm going to say.

Like late TNG, still quite,
um, I'd say bright and innocent

and positive sort of Data.

It's not, it's not, uh, old Data,
if you'll accept that description.

I mean, full respect to what Brent
Spiner did in season three of

Picard, really enjoyed that too.

But it did feel like coming home
in a way and going back to visit

your old high school sort of
thing with Data here this episode.

He really was his most bridge
crew of the Enterprise self.

Rob: Very much so.

And we did see, uh, the purple
Enterprise D obviously as well,

going in and out of fissures.

Um, and that's just very, very clever.

I love the throwaway line of the
captain going, uh, they had some

sort of run in with a purple
version of Natasha Yar or whatever.

Kevin: Yes, clones of
Tasha Yar or whatever.

Rob: Whatever.

Kevin: Um, very good.

Yes.

I enjoyed this episode immensely.

I think it was, it was trading on
many strengths at once, uh, not

least T'Lyn and the dynamic between
T'Lyn and Tendi was just, I felt

like the backbone of this episode
and, um, it really carried it along.

Uh, having them tied up at the end and,
and then, you know, Um, metaphorically

tied up by being given the same job at
the end was just really delightful and,

and felt like, I mean, not looking too
far ahead to the conclusion of these,

this series, but it felt like the end
point of their character arcs for the

show, really, in a, in a really nice way.

Rob: very much so.

It's a case of.

Yeah, yeah, um, Tendi is very much at that
point where the competitive, well, yeah,

I was going to do a bit of a spoiler, but
I won't, but yeah, that competitive nature

of her was able to be put to bed and she
can just focus on being the best she can

be without needing to outdo everybody
else is a big step for her accepting

herself fully within the Federation,
but still her competitive nature.

Kevin: Yeah, it was the
final crisis for Tendi.

Like that, you know, when she wasn't
sleeping and she had the bags under

her eyes and she was not taking
Data's very patient and good advice,

it was like, no, Tendi, don't.

But you have to realize before you
leave a character on a positive note,

you have to see them at their lowest.

And we got to see Tendi at
her lowest one last time.

Rob: Hero's journey.

They need to go into the abyss and the
abyss for Tendi is not getting any sleep

and snapping at Data and turning him off.

Kevin: Being beaten by agriculture.

Rob: But I really liked the time they took
to actually establish, like, we didn't

get into massive detail, but within this,
uh, culture, this pre warp culture, we

had the time to, you know, get used to
the way they dress, their architecture,

a little bit of their culture, a little
bit of their superstitions, as it were.

That type of stuff was, was enjoyable
to have a bit of time with, and that's

like old, old Star Trek of what you like,
you like going to a new planet, a new

civilization, find out something new week
to week, and that was definitely one of

the more well realized, uh, civilizations.

And also a bit of work for Mariner there

Kevin: Yeah.

I was going to say, I mean, you've
been for a long time craving

post self destructive Mariner.

And I think that's what we got here.

She is surprising, like almost,
almost annoyingly, but not quite

annoyingly chipper and positive
and model Starfleet officer.

She's like,

Rob: She wanted her in,
she wanted her Inner Light

Kevin: Yeah, she is playing full
"fangirl of Star Trek" Mariner.

Like this is, this is where she fully
admits that she has an encyclopedic

knowledge of everything that has happened
in Star Trek before and wants to have

her own version of those experiences.

Rob: And that's what I love about the
dynamic of it, is that because, you know,

you could just have Boimler as the pure
alpha nerd, uh, and that's it, but to

have, you know, Mariner is a nerd as well.

She is a Star Trek nerd.

She knows all this type of stuff.

And, you know, and she's, you know,
she has jumped from ship to ship and

it's taken her a while to get used
to her authority and her power and

her destiny or whatever that may be.

But there's still within her a deep
seated love of the Federation and that's

a great balance to have within this show.

So you've got the pure nerd, and then,
the other, there are many different types

of nerds, no matter how, yeah, no matter
how many we're told, we're all the same.

Kevin: Yeah, Boimler and Mariner were
always set up to be like best friends, but

I think the assumption would be they would
be, uh, like an odd couple friendship.

That Mariner would be the, the roguish,
um, cool officer, whereas Boimler

would be the nerdy, earnest one.

But it's turned out they're both
nerdy, nerdy earnest ones of,

of slightly different stripes
and that works really well too.

Rob: And they all are, like, you
know, Tendi's a nerd, T'Lyn's a nerd,

Rutherford's a nerd, who, might I say,
and just like, uh, Boimler pointed

out, his beard came in very, very

Kevin: Very quickly.

Rob: Heheheh.

Quickly and evenly.

Kevin: Uh, absolutely.

Rob: I love that, but it goes, yeah,
I've been getting a lot of compliments.

How about you?

Uh, not so much.

Kevin: Yes Ah, he looked
terrible, Boimler, this episode.

It's just like, seriously, we're going to
draw him like this for an entire episode?

An entire episode.

And it's going to feel like three.

Rob: They're taking their time.

They are taking their time to get this
full Boimler beard happening, and they're

going to make us sit through an entire
ten episodes to get, hopefully, a perfect

Kevin: It did remind me of Rutherford
just before Tendi got back when he

was at his lowest and he was like
unshaven and the sweat patches and

stuff and it was not a plot point for
that episode really, yet they drew

him quote unquote ugly or disheveled
for the entire episode and it was both

distracting but also like nice to see the
investment or the commitment to the bit.

Rob: Definitely, definitely.

Yeah, I had a lot of
fun with this episode.

It was all the, you know, it was
what a lot of people criticize

about Lower Decks is it's too
noisy, it's too loud, it's too big.

Um, all those elements worked
well here because there was such a

heart and, uh, such a truth to it.

And yeah, that's what Lower Decks
has just proved week after week.

It is a Star Trek show, just not
the way that, uh, we're used to.

And so, yeah, I had a great time.

Kevin: Uh, yeah, some, some
great Data stuff, uh, of course.

The, the, the, um, when he chews them
out of their ropes and Tendi remarks,

Oh, you really are fully functional.

Rob: That was a little bit saucy.

Kevin: And, I was reading about,
there's this reference of, well,

how, when you were stuck, uh,
back in time, how did you escape?

And he said, I waited in a cave until
Captain Picard, myself, and some

guy in a silver jumpsuit dug me out.

We'll call that plan B.

Um, but I was like, silver jumpsuit?

I do not remember that.

But sure enough, you go back and you
watch the opening moments, of the, uh,

I think it's the season five finale,
or it's, it was this, yeah, it's the

season five finale going into season six.

So it's a, it's a two-parter and, uh,
the, the, yeah, the opening of Time's

Arrow is basically the Enterprise gets
called to an archeological site where

Data's head has been found, uh, on Earth
and yeah, it's Picard, Data and a random

guy in a silver jumpsuit who is one of
the archaeologists who discovered it.

But he's not really
given a name or anything.

He's got a couple of
expositional lines of dialogue.

Um, and, uh, I was reading that the
original, that was something that they

found in the booth for this episode.

Like the original script was,
I waited until I was rescued

or something like that.

And they were like, Hmm,
that isn't quite as punchy.

What else could we do?

And they went back in the, in the moment
during the recording session, they went

back and watched the start of Time's
Arrow and went, well, it's Captain Picard,

myself, and some guy in a silver jumpsuit.

Why don't you just say that?

That was hilarious.

And, uh, so it came
together in the moment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob: Amazing.

Kevin: Uh, sounded like fun making this
episode and I'm sure this show in general,

it's, it's, it's sad that it's over.

Rob: Yeah, and it's very, it's very clear
that Spiner had a great time on there.

You could just tell that he was giving
his all, that he wasn't phoning it in.

Um, and it was a, you know, the answer
or the solution we all expected, um, was

that just give them both the job, was
of course Data's sage scientific advice.

Kevin: Yeah.

All right.

Well, uh, the, the topic that we chose
to pick out of this episode was times

that our, our Starfleet officers or
people go undercover, uh, often in

plastic surgical, uh, get ups provided
by the medical officers on the show.

Rob: Now of course, one of the big
ones uh, one of my favorite ones, we've

already talked about before, which is
Apocalypse Rising, where you had four

of the Deep Space Nine crew go full
Klingon, to find out about the uh,

conspiracy and there's a, there's a rat
amongst the high command within Klingons.

But yeah, so we've already talked about
that one, which is a magnificent episode,

uh, start of season six, I believe.

Kevin: Yeah, I always get that one
mixed up with, uh, the one where,

uh, they team up with Dax to go and
settle the score with the albino.

For some reason in my head, those are
the same mission, and they were all

dressed up as Klingons to go and fight
the albino, but of course they're not.

They, and that is kind of the point,
that, like, Dax is not the tough

warrior that she once was when
she last dealt with him as Kurzon.

Um, uh, but yeah, anyway, they,
they are completely different

episodes for the record.

I don't know if I'm the only
one who gets those two confused.

Rob: And that episode of course
has old actors who played Klingons

in, uh, the classic series.

So there's some wonderful, uh, return
performances from, uh, classic actors

Kevin: Lots of Klingon makeup,
just not on our Starfleet officers.

So yeah, I thought I would talk
to, talk first about the original

one of these, which is from the
original series, uh, Season 3,

Episode 2, The Enterprise Incident.

Um, one of, arguably, the best,
episode of season three of Star Trek.

Rob: Season 3 is quite a challenging
one to find good episodes

Kevin: But, uh, you know, you
assign Dorothy Fontana to write your

episode, you're gonna get a good one.

And, uh, yeah, they did a
real good job on this one.

This is almost kind of like a, a Cold
War spy thriller, uh, in Star Trek.

Kirk feigns being kind of, uh,
irritable and out of control

at the start of this episode.

So he seemingly goes rogue and
orders the Enterprise across the

Neutral Zone into Romulan space.

And the entire bridge crew is
like, did you get the order?

No, I didn't get the order.

He seems to be acting
a little irrationally.

And Kirk's just, you know, snapping at
people left and right on the bridge.

Meanwhile, there's like voiceover
from McCoy doing his medical log

going, he won't come into sickbay
for a medical examination no

matter how many times I ask him.

And.

Inevitably, they are intercepted by
Romulan ships, and Kirk and Spock go

aboard the Romulan ship to negotiate,
during which time the Romulans are

quite fascinated, if you'll pardon
the term, by Spock as a Vulcan.

This is like where the Romulans and
Vulcans shared heritage is traded upon,

and they're kind of like, Ooh, a Vulcan
serving among humans, that must be tough.

And they, Kirk and Spock, play out this
little ruse where, um, Spock pretends

to be sick of serving with humans,
Kirk pretends to, to shout at Spock

as a disloyal traitor, and, uh, Spock
seemingly kills Kirk using, quote,

the Vulcan death grip on his face.

Um, and it's all a ruse.

It is, once again, um, you
know, Kirk kills Spock.

Kirk wakes up in sickbay and
everyone's like, Kirk, you're alive!

Ah, there's no such thing as the
Vulcan death grip, it turns out.

But this is for Spock to go behind enemy
lines and he's, you know, promised a ship

of his own in the Romulan Star Command.

And, uh, he, he has quite an intimate
evening with the woman who, uh, leads

the Romulan ship, the commander.

She's never named, she's
just called The Commander.

But she's a beautiful woman and they
have this, uh, very kind of intimate

rendezvous that I'm, I've read was
originally scripted with a fair bit of

kissing and canoodling, but Uh, Dorothy
Fontana stood her ground and said,

Vulcans don't do that sort of thing.

They, they kiss with their fingers and
that's what we're gonna do, darn it.

Uh, and so, so it was.

But, uh, the point of bringing up
this episode here is, once he is, uh,

returned from the dead, Kirk uses the
opportunity to dress up as a Romulan.

He gets McCoy to give him
Romulan ears and eyebrows.

He steals one of the Centurion's uniforms
from the brig where, you know, when

they went aboard the Romulan ship, they
traded a couple of Romulan officers, uh,

as a, as a, you know, a, a guarantee.

So he takes one of their uniforms.

And beams on board the Romulan
ship, posing as a centurion.

Now, the logic of this
plot is a little weird.

You've just been on board this ship,
very noticeably, as a human captain.

Uh, and now you beam on lookin like
the same guy, just with pointy ears,

but everyone is bamboozled just long
enough for him to deliver a karate

chop to the neck and knock people out.

Uh, and Kirk is there to
steal the cloaking device.

That is the purpose of this entire ruse.

While Spock keeps the commander busy
in her quarters, Kirk, uh, makes

his way into engineering, steals the
cloaking device, and the Enterprise

makes its escape under cloak.

Uh, and, uh, yeah, Scotty manages to
wire it up to the Enterprise deflector

system in, in the nick of time.

Rob: Of course he does.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: he does.

Kevin: But, uh, yeah, great fun.

Uh, Kirk, when he comes back from
his mission, like walks back onto the

bridge, still with his pointed ears
and everyone's shocked to see him alive

because last time they knew he was dead.

Not only is he alive, but he looks, looks
very unusual and, and he has to tell

everyone, not now, go back to your seats.

And it's fun to watch, you know, uh, um,
the entire bridge crew react to this.

It's, it's good stuff.

It's,

Rob: Well, how's, um,
Kirk's Romulan performance?

Because I mean the one thing about
this is what we talked about with

um, Apocalypse Rising is that um, you
know, it was great to see like Sisko

play a Klingon and or how uh, O'Brien
couldn't really handle or Odo as well.

So how is Kirk's um, uh, in your critical
opinion give you give us a review of um,

William Shatner's, kirk's performance as a

Kevin: It's fun to watch.

The Romulans are still a
little underdeveloped at this

point in Star Trek history.

So they are, they are a bit just
kind of, you know, that, that

Roman Centurion sort of air.

And, and he does do that well.

When he beams on board the ship,
uh, he's alone, but immediately,

uh, another Romulan officer walks
around the corner, and Kirk does a

very good snap into Romulan mode and
says, says, Oh, where's commander Tal?

I need to report my escape.

I've just affected my
escape from the human ship.

Um, where's commander Tal?

And he goes, Oh, he's on the bridge.

He goes, very well.

I shall be certain to mention
your alertness to him.

And they do a Romulan
salute to each other.

And it's very, yeah, you know, it's good.

Um, Kirk in general is really good
in this episode at the start when he

is like, pretending to be, you know,
kind of power mad and out of control.

He does, there's a lot of scenes where
he has his back to the bridge crew and

so we as an audience are let in on his
emotional state in these moments, and he's

doing a very good job of like keeping up
the pretense for everyone behind him but

letting us, the audience into the fact
that there's a little something going on.

Uh, and it's really strong, um,
beautifully underplayed, I'll

say, by William Shatner here.

Um, there were some memos that went
back and forth, um, uh, between Gene

Roddenberry and the new producer of the
show, uh, for season three, where Gene

congratulated the new producer on getting
that performance out of William Shatner.

He's like, I'm really glad to be
seeing new strength out of our captain.

I've been saying for a while we needed
that color from him and it's lovely to

see that you're achieving that with him.

Rob: Wonderful, wonderful

Kevin: So yeah, it's a good one and
um, yeah, established this conceit of

the, uh, medical officers being able to
do a bit of disguise work on the side.

At the end, uh, when the dust
settles, McCoy calls up and reminds

Kirk that he needs to report to,
uh, sickbay to have his ears bobbed.

And Spock steps up and
says, Captain, please go.

Somehow they do not look
aesthetically agreeable on humans.

And Spock of course is playing
it completely straight, but

the rest of the bridge crew is
giggling, uh, in the background.

So it's

Rob: Having a big laugh because
you need to finish the episode

Kevin: Always have to end on a
laugh in a freeze frame, yeah.

No, they hadn't developed the
freeze frame technology yet.

That came in the 80s,

Rob: That was very much an
80s, uh, strength and curse.

Kevin: yes.

Um,

What was your one?

Rob: Well, my one is, uh, I'm,
I've kind of inverted the process.

I've been a bit sneaky, so I've gone
with one where they are undercover, um,

but the, the, the crew are undercover
because they've come across something

that is all too familiar, so they
don't need to disguise themselves

because what they're going into
is, uh, a well laid out disguise.

I'm talking about Star Trek Voyager.

Uh, Season 5, Episode 4, In the Flesh.

Kevin: Is this the one with
the fake Starfleet Academy?

Rob: It is the one with the fake
Academy, where they ask all these

questions and they answer none of them.

Because, why should we spend time
focusing on answering how this thing

happened, when we can spend more
time with Chakotay being a doge?

Kevin: All right.

Rob: Where we have the moment,
what is this sensation that

you humans call kissing?

Kevin: Oh.

Rob: Yes.

Uh, we open, uh, with Chakotay and,
uh, Tuvok, seemingly at Starfleet

Academy, uh, in San Francisco.

And of course, uh, the groundskeeper,
famous groundskeeper, Boothby is there.

Kevin: Oh man, Boothby.

That guy, out of one line of dialogue
in Star Trek The Next Generation, he

cashed so many paychecks, that actor.

Rob: That is, uh, the wonderful Ray
Walston, who, uh, was an incredible actor.

And, uh, I remember him mostly from
a 90's show written by David E.

Kelly called, uh, Picket
Fences, which was the biggest

Kevin: Picket Fences real

Rob: Picket Fences was, like,
the biggest thing in the 90's,

and then it just disappeared.

Like, as soon as it finished.

Everyone forgot about

Kevin: Very similar sort of
character of like, sort of

the patriarch of a community.

Rob: That's right.

He was the judge in Picket Fences.

And so he was gruff and always
went up against Douglas Wambaugh

for the defense and Don Cheadle
as the, uh, as the prosecutor.

Um, so yes, he's here being his,
um, old amiable self who knows

everyone because a twinkle in
his eye and a smile in his heart.

I love, I love the, uh, old school
90s modern technology of the, um,

I can't remember the name of the
device specifically that Chakotay's

got just to take photos, and
it's about the size of an iPad.

Kevin: It looks like, you know,
around this time in the real world,

digital cameras with floppy disks
that stick into them were becoming a

thing and they seemed to design the
prop as a slightly futuristic but same

size and shape version of that, uh,

Rob: Yeah.

It's every time I giggle where they
just have that 90s analog perception

of the future where they have.

Um, all these, like, iPads stacked on
top of each other, going, well, look

at all these files I need to read.

And they're going, they couldn't even
comprehend the fact that all those

files could just be in one device.

Kevin: Well, yeah, it was
like a holographic imager

or something they would say.

Rob: And so, the investigation
is on for, uh, Why is this here?

Because it's clearly we see
a shot from the outside.

It's just like a space station and
this whole interior is like a facade.

Kevin: It's fun whenever an episode
starts in medias res like that.

That you're in an unfamiliar space
and then at a certain point, the

establishing shot comes late, if you will.

Rob: Yeah.

Love, I love being mid mission.

I love we start in the
middle of the adventure.

Um, and mysteries come along.

So Chakotay goes to the bar and
then one of the, one of the members

within the bar starts reacting
badly and their face starts morphing

and then they're dragged off.

Kevin: Just be cool.

Just be cool.

This is completely normal.

Rob: Exactly.

And like, you know, we really shouldn't
be talking like this, Chakotay talking

to, um, uh, Commander Valerie Archer.

Nice drop there.

Um, we shouldn't really be talking like
that, but, you know, being in this form

for this long and needing to sleep eight
hours a day is such a waste of time.

Uh, so Chakotay getting
what information he can.

Um, and then things, of course, go wrong.

They get caught.

Uh, trying about to teleport out by
a young, um, security guard, played

by the brilliant Zach Galligan,
who's from, uh, Gremlins 1 and 2, in

a very small role as Ensign Gentry.

And then the mystery really thickens
when, uh, uh, the poor old Ensign is

not coping well with being taken back
up to Voyager, and so commits suicide.

And, um, they are able to take away
the facade of his humanly body and

find out that, yes, the species that
is undercover is of course Species

8472, who we saw last year, who Voyager
teamed up with the Borg to defeat

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: powerful.

Kevin: It's a, it's an interesting,
uh, way that the show dealt with

the challenges of that Species
8472, like clearly Species 8472

was like, what can we do new in
our Uh, foe in an adversary race.

Well, all of our adversaries have
basically just been some version of

humanoids with prosthetics stuck to
them in different configurations.

Let's go wild.

We've got this CG technology
that's just barely capable of it.

Let's make a non humanoid,
foe, a non humanoid enemy.

So they do that, and then they immediately
realize, well, these non humanoids

cannot emote in a recognizable way.

They cannot speak or communicate
in an understandable way.

How do we tell stories with this thing?

I know, we'll make them dress up as
humans in a fake Starfleet Academy,

and then we're back to kind of just the
same old adversary, uh, prototype again.

So it, it's kind of admitting defeat for
what they tried to do with Species 8472.

Nevertheless, this is a story that
I feel like we have not seen before.

It was enjoyable from what
I remember of this episode.

So I'm kind of happy with what they
found, but it, it seems to me it

could not possibly have been what they
were looking to do with that species

when they first dreamed them up.

Rob: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in there
about, a lot of questions asked, like,

um, how did they get this information?

It's so pinpoint accurate.

Um, uh, Janeway does a whole
thing of when they find out it's

Species 8472, uh, they immediately
believe that everyone is a suspect.

So they go through a whole process of
checking Chakotay's DNA, that he's proper.

There's a lineup of all the rest
of the crew going into the doctor's

office to get checked as well.

But nothing ever comes of it.

And they must have someone on the inside.

And they never discuss it.

As soon as everything is
brought out in the open.

The final section is
Star Trek pure diplomacy.

So it's discussing this, what
common ground do we have?

How can we make this work?

As opposed to the big mystery which led
the first two acts of, uh, this episode:

where did they get the information?

How do they know so much about us?

And then it becomes a case of
We're all quite common in the end.

Well, how can we oversee, you know,
and they're not just species who want

to wipe us all out, even though they
said that in the previous episode.

So it's quite a lot of big questions
and statements are started at the

first, this tantalizing conspiracy, and
then it goes into we're all the same,

Kevin: yeah, yeah.

Rob: with a final shot of you know Janeway
mentioning early on in the episode how

Boothby would always give me a flower when
I'd be walking past and so at the end he

pulls out the flower and gives it to her.

We still don't know how he knows

Kevin: Yeah, defanged a bit, uh,
the Species 8472 in this episode.

Rob: because there was such a
ominous menace when they first were

brought in that that Voyager had no
other option but to side with the

Kevin: Yeah, the Borg are afraid of
them, was the biggest, uh, thing.

Yeah, and the Borg are afraid of
them, but they'll pick a flower

for you to make you feel nice.

Rob: And there's stuff and there's stuff
in there about you know uh Seven of

Nine's education as a human you know and
her, her conflict with Janeway, Janeway

going, no, I'm going for diplomacy, and
Seven of Nine going, we should blow them

out of the sky, we should destroy them.

Um, and then at the end, Seven goes,
well, if I had followed, you know,

if we had followed my way of doing
things, we would all be dead, but you

have saved us by using your logic and
your, you know, diplomacy, and you're

being very un Borg, and Janeway, being
smart, going, yeah, no, I'm great.

Um, And Chakotay just making out
with anything, because he's a doge.

Um, so, yes, it was sort of like an invert
of no cosmetic surgery there for them,

but a lot of awkward moments that kind
of was a big part of the 60s Star Trek

of going, you know, what we do as humans
is the best, and why doesn't everybody

want to kiss like we kiss, or dress
like we dress, or look like we dress.

Kevin: All these episodes have that
kind of before the unmasking and after

the unmasking sort of phase and, and
it's, it's really fun as long as we

get to live in that, that period of
like the audience knowing more than

the characters on, on the screen.

How long do, you know, Chakotay
and, and Tuvok, was it, that are…?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

How long do they get to like
remain incognito in this episode?

Rob: Um, they're pretty much, uh,
there's a, there's a great moment.

I was going to bring it up when he
start, uh, a date is set between

Chakotay and Archer, and so they go
back up to the ship, they take the

security ensign, uh, the cadet, he's,
uh, he kills himself, they reveal,

okay, this is serious, they're in
disguise, the Species, uh, 8472.

Uh, Chakotay goes, I've got to go
back, I've got a date to keep, I've

got to find out what information I can.

Janeway goes, okay.

There's little moments in there as
well, Janeway and Chakotay going, hey.

Where they do a bit of talking
back and forth, and I can see

the flirty stuff after, um, more
so probably because of Prodigy.

Um, and Tuvok doesn't go back.

Tuvok stays on the ship, but it's
through his date with, uh, Archer.

He's taken back to her apartment.

They do a bit of kissy kissy.

Um, and the whole thing
is, is that alright?

He goes, well, let's keep on trying.

Um.

Kevin: this how, the humans do it?

Rob: Yes, she goes and gets changed,
there's a nice silhouette of her

undressing, he looks at one of her
information pads to find out more info.

He goes, I have to leave and finish
an assignment, which, and then as he

leaves, they, she gets in touch with
Boothby, who's the leader, and goes,

um, gives the information, and Boothby
gives the great line, let's cut to

daylight so we can find him easier.

So it's a very Truman Show moment
where, uh, Chakotay's walking out in

darkness and then with a flick of a
switch, everything goes to daytime

and everyone just swarms on him.

So that's a nice moment of, that's
when the ruse is broken, which is

sort of like at the end of act three.

Kevin: Yeah, so we get a while of
the skullduggery continuing, which

Rob: Pretty much, yeah, we've got, yeah,
so the first three acts, uh, cause,

most television hour long, uh, dramas
of five acts for including ad breaks.

So first three, uh, within the drama of
it and then diplomacy for the last two.

Kevin: I'm noting that The Enterprise
Incident that I was just talking

about and this one both have
that kind of, uh, boudoir scene.

In mine it was Spock and the Romulan
commander and there is this moment

where, where the commander says, I find
myself, I am surprised to find myself

this moved by the touch of an alien.

And Spock says, I too must confess
to feel myself moved emotionally.

And there's a, there's a bit of the, you
know, aliens meeting in, in, uh, on a

date, if you will, uh, in both of these.

And that carries true in the
next episode I wanted to talk

about, which is First Contact.

Not the movie, but the episode
from Star Trek: The Next Generation

season four, number 15, in which
Riker is injured in a riot while

undercover on a planet that they are
preparing to make first contact with.

And so in preparation for first contact,
Riker, uh, is on a mission kind of in, in,

uh, in costume as a native of the planet.

But there is a riot he
gets caught up with.

He gets knocked out, he gets taken
to hospital, and the doctors at

the hospital very quickly realize
this is not one of our own.

Rob: I think I might have seen this

Kevin: Yeah, well you might remember
Bebe Neuwirth, uh, guest starring

very prominently as the nurse who
offers to help Riker escape from

the hospital in exchange for sex.

Rob: I don't remember the sex
part, but yeah, I do remember

seeing her, you know, all, uh,
alien bumpied up in certain photos.

Kevin: She says, I have always
dreamed of making love with an alien.

It's your only way out of here, my alien.

And she's, she's in glasses and,
and, uh, has the, the three fingered

alien hands like very, uh, very
excitedly pressed in front of her.

And, uh, Riker kind of looks around
and goes, Well, I guess we're doing

this, and it cuts to the, cuts to
the next scene, and she's adjusting

her glasses on the way out of the
hospital room as she leads him out.

Unfortunately, the escape is foiled by,
uh, by the rest of the hospital staff,

who, word has gotten around about the
alien that is there, and, and Riker is

once again fallen upon by the natives.

Uh, meanwhile, Picard is negotiating
with the Chancellor of this planet.

He introduces himself to them.

There's that come up to the ship and
see your planet from above moment

that we get in the movies as well.

Um, so all of that is
happening here in the backdrop.

But, uh, for my money, the, the
scene of this episode is, um, is sex

being traded for escape by our doge,
to use your term, Commander Riker.

Rob: And the wonderful Bebe Neuwirth.

I love Bebe

Kevin: she's so good.

It's worth just watching this
scene, um, for, for her tiny

little, uh, turn on Star Trek here.

Rob: Yeah, because they've done
like, uh, comparison photos of,

obviously, characters from Frasier
who've been in, um, in Star Trek.

So, of course, uh, Kelsey Grammer appeared
in the, in the lost, uh, uh, Starfleet

ship, uh, episode, and, um, Bebe Neuwirth
here, and I think a couple of others.

I know, Jason Alexander from
Seinfeld did a Voyager episode.

Kevin: Mm hmm.

Um, yeah, I'll, I'll also call out
Minister Yale, who is, I guess, the,

the main guest star of this episode.

She is the, the lead scientist on
the planet's project to develop warp,

their first warp flight, which is
what has triggered the first contact.

And she's played by Carolyn Seymour.

Um, uh, a great, uh, guest character
actress who returns in the other

episode I wanted to bring to the table
today, which is Face of the Enemy.

No, a completely different character,
but it is a Romulan, so we're going

in circles with our themes here.

Um, season six, episode 14, Face of
the Enemy has Carolyn Seymour playing

the commander of a Romulan ship.

But in this episode, it's
Troi who is undercover.

The cold open of this episode starts
in darkness, uh, and a figure wakes

up and, uh, it's Troi's voice and
she asks the computer to turn on

the lights and nothing happens.

She finds her way to the vanity
in these quarters she finds

herself in, turns on the lights.

With a, with a button on the
wall and is shocked by her own

reflection, which is a Romulan.

She has been, without her
knowledge, kidnapped and

modified to look like a Romulan.

A Romulan officer named N'Vek
introduces himself and it was

he who organized her abduction.

Uh, she is to pose as a member of the Tal
Shiar, the secret service of the Romulans.

And she is meant to order around
this ship in order to organize

the extradition of some defectors.

Uh, all of this was plotted
by Spock, we learn later, in

a message to Captain Picard.

This is part of Spock's
"cowboy diplomacy".

Um, and, uh, he has arranged for
some defectors to be smuggled off on

the ship with Troi posing as the Tal
Shiar that, that, uh, is pulling all

the strings, um unwillingly for her.

Like, she was kidnapped
to run this mission.

Um, so it's a lot of kind of beautiful,
um, she doesn't want to do it, but she

has to do it to get out of this situation.

And then she does a
remarkably good job of it.

The plan falls apart.

And then she, ultimately, comes
up with a fallback plan and orders

around N'Vek herself and says, well,
look, I'm the Tal Shiar on this ship.

I can tell the captain to have you
executed if you don't do what I say.

And it's beautiful.

But Carolyn Seymour, coming back to
our guest star here as the commander.

Um, does a beautiful role as
the, the captain, the, the

commander of the Romulan ship.

There's a scene at the captain's
table where Troi is there doing

her best impression of a hard
nosed, uh, unflappable Tal Shiar,

who believes wholeheartedly
in service to the government.

Whereas the captain we learn is kind
of a peacenik by Romulan standards.

Her father was dragged away in
the night for being a little

too idealistic as a young girl.

And so she mistrusts the Tal Shiar.

She does not want to see
the Romulan military be too

militaristic, unnecessarily.

And Troi, who internally believes that as
well, internally is working on a secret

mission to advance that same cause,
nevertheless has to put on the face of

someone who is completely against it.

It's so well written and
tightly performed, this episode.

I recommend it very highly.

Rob: Well, uh, Carolyn
Seymour is a wonderful actor.

She's, uh, done, uh, BBC series
Survivors back in the 70s.

She was in the computer game series Giz of
Well, for me, I remember her from, uh, uh,

Quantum Leap, the famous, um, Bad Leaper
episode where, um, in Season 5, things

get a bit messed up where they go outside
the parameters of what Quantum Leap was

meant to do and they brought in this
parallel dimension where there's a leaper

going through to ruin everybody's life.

And uh, Carolyn Seymour plays
the Al equivalent who's the, the

hologram with all the information.

So she appears in two episodes
of, uh, of Quantum Leap.

She's very, very good.

Yeah, I'd love to, I have to
check those out because I'd love

to see her in the world of Star

Kevin: Oh yeah, a couple
of delicious roles as well.

Um, I watched these two episodes back
to back and it was not until I read

the, the Memory Alpha pages that I
realized it was the same guest star.

That's how, that's how
different the characters were.

Rob: Wonderful.

Kevin: So there you go.

Lots of, uh, lots of, uh, faces in
disguise, including a guest star in

disguise, um, in, in our episodes there.

I, I confess there's not as
many of these as I thought.

Every time Lower Decks does a send
up of a trope, I'm like, well,

there must be 20 of those for them
to be making this much fun out of

Rob: Nah, it was, it was, a, it was
a tough one to find, like, because

there's all, you know, Picard goes all
Romulan for Unification, I believe?

Um, Uh, like, uh, and uh, Kira puts
on the costume of a Breen in the

final, uh, ever story of Deep Space

Kevin: There's one where she's done up
as a Cardassian as well, and it's very

challenging for the character because
obviously she hates Cardassians, but she

has to like wear the skin of a Cardassian

Rob: Yes, I can't remember which that
one is, so leave the comments below, so,

uh, in all caps, please, I only respond
to all caps, uh, which episode it was.

Um, so, yeah, it's, it's always the
way, it's always the way we go, well,

because they're homaging it, there
must be oodles and oodles again.

No, that's how nerdy they are.

They're very specific.

Kevin: Well, good, good to
go through those with you.

I'm already looking forward
to our next one, which is

going to be about Upper Decks.

Rob: What a name.

What a title.

And, um, what an episode
for us to focus on.

I think we've already had an
episode that focused really on

the the bridge crew, I think.

So this is going to be one
that's more pointed, I assume.

Kevin: Well, we'll see.

Until then, I'll see
you around the galaxy.