Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello, and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin.

Rob: and me Rob.

Kevin: And we're here to talk about Season
5, Episode 8 of Lower Decks, Upper Decks.

How confusing.

Rob: Very confusing.

That's not what the show's called, Kevin.

The show called Lower Decks, but they've
got an episode titled Upper Decks.

What's going on?

They've gone crazy.

Thank god they're, they're
cancelling this show because,

Kevin: They're off, uh, off their rockers.

Rob: Please respond in
all caps, uh, underneath.

That would be greatly appreciated.

Kevin: This episode starts with
jack o lantern carving, and once

again I feel like they were aiming
for Halloween and slightly missed.

Rob: Yeah, we didn't actually get
to see any jack o lantern faces.

We just got, uh, V'ger,
and, uh, the Cerritos, yeah.

Kevin: Um, yeah, uh, strange.

I feel like they must have been making
these episodes a year ago, and they

were like, well, it'll be kind of
at next year, Halloween is in there

somewhere, let's take a shot, and if
we're right, it'll be awesome, and if

we're wrong, it'll be close enough.

Rob: And we don't really do Christmas
seasons within the we've never done, like,

Kevin: No, no, but Lower
Decks can get away with

Rob: Yes, Lower Decks can get away with
it, um, Uh, and, yeah, and Mariner coming

in being going into a painting world.

I'm there going, is this, uh,

Kevin: Yeah, they were clearly like,
what things do we want to say that

are so crazy, we don't actually
want to do them on Lower Decks,

but they are funny to imagine.

Rob: I just add my favorite responses
from Boimler there go, Oh, I want

to go to a painting universe.

Kevin: I'm going to get
stuck in a painting.

Rob: Ha ha ha ha

Kevin: got to ride a rainbow.

Yeah.

Of course, Upper Decks, the conceit here
is to kind of, um, mirror the pattern

of the Star Trek: The Next Generation
episode, Lower Decks, which inspired

this entire series, and take a break
from telling the stories of our regular

Star stars, the lower deckers, and
spend a week with our upper deckers.

And we'll talk about how
well we thought that worked.

But it was, it felt to me like one of
those things that was like a Post It note

on the wall of we must do this someday.

And with the last season on the
table, they were like, well,

take that Post It note down.

It's time to do all those ideas.

And they had to get it done.

Rob: Yes, and in the week since we've
recorded this, I should have used that

week to actually research what that
episode was that I mentioned last week,

where they kind of did this before,
or at least maybe it was a moment.

Like I remember at the end of an
episode, where, like, they've got the

captain standing forward and she goes,
You don't with the Cerritos upper deck.

And it's like a, a pan shot, like,
landscape of all of them, like, Ransom

striking, a heroic pose, and all

Kevin: I agree.

We've been here before.

And to me, that was the main problem
with this episode, is it wasn't

actually that special or unusual.

Certainly nowhere near what was done
in the original Next Gen episode, Lower

Decks, that we'll talk about in a bit.

Spoilers for the rest of this show.

Uh, yeah.

I feel like that's the problem is,
is Lower Decks really was a step away

from the everyday, and we got to meet
some brand new characters, live in

some really unfamiliar situations, and,
perhaps most prominently, see how it

was to be kept in the dark from what was
going on on the other half of the ship.

Um, and none of that was happening
here because we know our, our

commanders as they are called here,
or the bridge crew so very well.

We've had entire episodes
centered around all of them.

Um, I was saying earlier this season
that I was enjoying the break from

the bridge crew, and then they
brought them back for Starbase 80!?

So, Um, yeah, it felt like an obvious
Post It note on the wall that had already

been done halfway or three quarters
of the way before, and so I'm not sure

we needed to spend one of our precious
episodes of this final season on this.

Rob: It was very, well, for me, it
was very much a case of, they really

telegraphed it, not even Post It note.

Like, on that post it note,
they put neon signs to actually

open the episode with Mariner

Kevin: We're kind of the
stars of the show around

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This show, this ship
wouldn't work without us.

And I'm there going, ooh, that's,
that's, I, yeah, there's meta commentary,

Kevin: that bright a lantern on it,
you're really gonna have to have

something special to deliver on it.

Rob: It was so bright.

And then we didn't see them at all.

So it wasn't just a case
about the upper deckers.

It was about the rest of the ship as well.

Because we had, like, beta
and alpha teams as well.

And it wasn't until right at the
end, like you said, where the gag

is, all this stuff is happening, but
they're not even conscious of it.

But it's just a gag of, as, as Mariner
says, nah, you're just messing with me,

my dad's not here, closing, and then you
see all the cow creatures going across.

Space cows!

Um, uh, yeah, so, um, for me there
were nice moments to, to focus on

those upper deckers we haven't seen
for a while, like we got uh, uh, we

got some time in the engineering room,
an ensign who came out of nowhere?

I don't think we've It sounded
either Australian or New Zealand.

Kevin: Oh, yes.

Yeah, I know that actor.

I think she, I think I know her from,
uh, uh, Mythic Quest on Apple TV+.

I think she plays like one of the
leads as, as like a programmer in that.

Poppy.

She plays Poppy Li on Mythic Quest.

Uh, fans may also know her from Please
Like Me, Camp, and she played a small

role, Actor Sif in Thor Ragnarok.

Rob: Oh, okay.

Kevin: Um, yeah, so, distinctive
voice, um, she's funny, like, I am

very much a fan of her character on
Mythic Quest, and if she was given

a full starring role on a Star Trek
series, I think it would be awesome.

Uh, cause she plays a very good,
like, you know, heartful but

funny nerd in, in Mythic Quest,
and so, yeah, I like it here.

Rob: Well, this would be
what's considered the C plot?

Because like, the A plot was the captain
trying to go around and see everybody.

Which we've kind of touched on before,
like, especially with, with, um, uh,

Janeway, been episodes, uh, where,
you know, she needs to know everyone.

Um, and then the B plot is kind of
dealing with Shaxs, Shaxs going through

his, uh, his psychological trauma,

Kevin: Yeah, we've got the B'goons
in the cargo bay with Ransom.

Yeah.

And the visiting Federation
specialist who be an evil alien.

Rob: And the aliens that
don't accept compliments.

Kevin: There's T'Ana, who is
recalibrating her pain meter in sickbay.

Rob: And has that, has that
assistant been there before?

Kevin: I have not noticed Nurse Westlake
before, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Rob: Nurse Westlake is amazing, and I'm
there going, why have, we've seen Westlake

before, I believe we have, a couple of
times, but to give Westlake that much

Kevin: Westlake has 13
appearances in, decks.

So

Rob: you, you can see my, you, I'm sorry.

This is a podcast listeners, because
you would see my awkward face

emoji right now go, Ooh, because
he was outstanding in this episode.

Kevin: Yeah.

Oh.

Very much like gossipy
in, in a very funny way.

No one else would put
up with you, darling.

Rob: And then gives her a
scratch on the head at the end.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Quite patronizing, but

Kevin: I refilled the hyposprays.

We're good to go the next time some
virus makes everyone sing or whatever.

Shade throne at Strange New
Worlds and and fair enough.

Rob: And rightly so, I think we're
the only two fans who didn't like

that episode, but I'm happy with
you and me on this oasis together.

Kevin: Yes.

Yes.

I mean, they really just took the bridge
crew and said, you each get a story.

I'm not sure we could even agree
on what was the A, the B, the

Rob: Fair enough, yeah.

Kevin: Like, they're just all
separate plots that at the end

all contribute to the solution
to the enemy, intruders on the

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, I think we tread ground with Ransom
before, like he plays the buffoon to,

yeah, he takes the, the slack being the
buffoon, the idiot that everyone hates, so

that they become, that's been done before,

Kevin: It's been done before.

It worked for me.

You know, that thing where a bad
joke is you groan the first time.

You want to leave the second time.

And then the third time it's
actually starting to work.

Rob: talking about my
comedy career right there.

I do that in inverted commas, big

Kevin: like Ransom has just
like passed that threshold

where now it's actually funny.

He solves problems by lifting weights.

Rob: Look, if it was.

If it was, if it was anyone other
than Jerry O'Connell, I, I don't

know if I'd be so endeared to him.

But I love Jerry O'Connell
as an actor so much.

I've grown up with him since his
early days as Stand By Me, um, to

see where he is now, and him and,
you know, Rebecca Romijn being an

awesome power Star Trek couple.

Kevin: It's so, yeah, it is such a
strange second or third act to that guy's

career, and it's really working for him.

What works is that it's knowing,
like, he doesn't take himself

seriously in that persona either,
and it's just really funny.

And I think that's what's working
for me for the first time here

is, he goes, Everybody stop.

I have a plan that will get
us out of this situation.

First I'll lift this with this arm
and then I'll lift this with this arm.

Oh yeah.

I feel it.

It's working.

And there was no plan is so obvious.

And the fact that he knew there
was no plan is also obvious.

And so you're kind of in on the joke
for the first time, I feel like.

Rob: I do love him going,
all right, gather round.

Let me tell you a story.

And most likely if it was a
Picard or a Riker doing that

you go, oh, okay, it's Ransom.

You go, this story's not
gonna make any sense.

It's just gonna be about him
pressing weights for god's sake.

Kevin: You gotta believe
in the power of exercise.

Is working out?

So, all these little vignettes,
like none of them for me really were

interesting enough for me to buy into.

Like the idea that the ship's chief
medical officer was not prescribing

anesthesia and that we are to accept
that and buy into it as reality.

I don't know if I'm taking
this cartoon too seriously.

But all of these stories
had that sort of element.

Rob: If you added the, the, the
doctor, the cat doctor, was admi

Kevin: Of course, lest I forget.

All of these stories had that sense of
two dimensionality about them that they

were none of them worthwhile as a story.

So, in the end, the, the whole
episode that was made up of them

felt in a way less than the sum
of its parts rather than more.

Rob: Yeah, look, it is very much a case
of it let us know we've got a stacked

cast of characters, you know and we
have for the last five seasons, and

it's a credit to them to have created
such a wide range of fascinating

characters like, you know, Billups, like,

Kevin: Andarithio Billups , if you will.

Rob: And even the, captain's
assistant, Stevens.

Stevens is gorgeous.

I was like, well, you've got to
check the check your timeline.

And the invasion's happening.

But this isn't in the schedule.

Hilarious.

Kevin: The, uh, the surprise date with
the captain's husband at the end was nice.

That is

Rob: That

Kevin: like, a full stop at the
end of this series, is that is the

end of the arc for that couple.

Um, having the dinner date in Paris
is a reference to the early Next Gen

episode, We'll Always Have Paris,
where Captain Picard has a, uh, date

with an old flame on the holodeck.

In, in Paris, it's the exact same
rooftop and the, the exact same view

of the Eiffel Tower in the background.

Rob: Of course, if Lower Decks
did that, they'd be Will.

Always have Paris, and so it's
Boimler having a date with

Will Riker in Paris as well.

Kevin: I've also gotta
point out, um, Paul F.

Tompkins was cast as Zurkel, the
unmasked alien who reveals that his

purpose there is to steal the alien's
cloaking organ and maybe eat what's left

depending on, uh, texture and flavor.

Rob: whether it's delicious or not.

Kevin: Yeah, I feel like, um, Paul F.

Tompkins has been typecast
as the gourmand of Star Trek.

Anytime a character needs to care a
little too much about what they're

putting in their mouth, you call Paul F.

Tompkins.

Rob: And we had a little bit of Migleemo.

Not too much of Migleemo,
just a little bit, especially

dealing with Shaxs as well.

Kevin: Yeah, he, uh, proposed, uh, therapy
the end, and that was well received.

Rob: Um, which was really good, but,
um, the transformation from the diplomat

into the insectoid creature, that
answered a lot it was so gross, and,

because we haven't had that much level
of animated grossness for many seasons,

that's, it's like, I remember when, you
know, the first scene of Lower Decks

Kevin: Bat'leth in the leg, burned
into my, uh, memory forever.

Rob: You gotta get through that before
you get to the gold of Lower Decks.

Um, but yeah, that was a
horrifying transformation and

made me answer a lot of questions.

Is that an actual creature?

Was that a living being who
they have just destroyed?

Or was it, yeah, uh, there's

Kevin: have no idea.

It's, yeah, it's another one
of those unanswered questions.

Rob: Um, and I did like the cute final
shot of the space cows and the little

tiny runt of the litter being able to
catch up and so it's like pressing,

trying in space to catch up and then it
just turns into a ball and catches up

with the mother and her and her siblings.

That was a cute way to end.

Kevin: Yeah, it cute.

I'm not sure what it's in reference to.

Like, does the small one represent the
Cerritos behind the rest of Starfleet?

I don't know.

I didn't quite, I didn't quite see what
they were going for other than, oh, nice.

Rob: I was going with oh nice but
I like how you brought a bit more

deep, uh, deep thought into it.

Um, and I did like the gag at the end
where everyone's bagging out Mariner now.

That's what I really like, T'Lyn sorta
like when, no, I am making fun of you.

I also saw your father as well,
and here, Really, did you?

No, I am mocking you.

Kevin: So, there were a couple of
other times in Star Trek where we

have done that, that, uh, let's go
meet another part of the crew that

we don't normally spend time with.

And of course, there was the
original Lower Decks episode.

So I'd like to talk about that.

There was also an episode of Voyager.

We talked about Good Shepherd before
where, um, Captain Janeway takes some

misfit crew under her wing, but there
was an earlier one as well called

Learning Curve, Tuvok does much the same.

Rob: With some of the Maquis, right?

Kevin: Yeah, that's right.

So we might start with that, I
think, uh, and finish with Lower

Decks because it does feel fitting
here at the end of this series to

revisit the, uh, the origin of ideas.

Rob: you want to look at our, uh,
Good Shepherd episode, go back

to one of our previous episodes
of, um, uh, Subspace Radio.

Kevin: Yes, indeedy.

And I'll say, perhaps, uh, Good
Shepherd, later in the run,

done with more confidence, um,
probably has more to recommend it.

But Learning Curve here,
I rewatched it today.

Not bad.

Season 1, Episode 16 of Voyager, and this
is early on where the fact that this was

a, a blend of two crews, one Starfleet,
one not, was still very much in play.

And In general, I think this
episode probably was in the original

pitch deck for the series because
there are a lot of elements from

Caretaker which are used here.

There's the, the bioneural gel pack
circuitry on Voyager that's mentioned.

Like, first thing, it's one of the
first things you learn about Voyager is

gel packs, and they rarely played into
anything in the, uh, series, but they

are core to the story here, um, there's,
there's Neelix's cooking in the mess hall,

and his position as, uh morale officer.

These things are, are used as well.

The relationship between Neelix and Mr.

Vulcan, Tuvok is, is very present here.

But yeah, the, the core of this story
is these four Maquis, former Maquis,

who did not ask to be part of Starfleet.

They understand the must needs, and
they will do their best, uh, to fit

in, but they are being held to an even
higher standard, and told if you're

going to serve on a Starfleet ship,
you need to be Starfleet officers

with everything that comes with it.

So we are going to give you a crash course
in, uh, Starfleet cadet, uh, training.

This is, um, it's a tough
ask for these characters.

They, they very rightly go,
well, we didn't ask for this.

You're holding us to a standard
we don't want to raise to.

What are you gonna do,
kick us off the ship?

Uh, and I think they have a point.

Like it's, it's really interesting that
in this story that they do have a point.

At the same time, I can kind of see that
Voyager, a ship where the Starfleet crew

outnumbers the Maquis, uh, is designed
to work a certain way and can only bend

so much to, uh, accommodate these Maquis.

If it's going to make the long trip
back to the Alpha Quadrant, they're

going to need to train these people
up to, to work within the system.

So, yeah, it's a, it's a fun episode.

And uh, for me, this is a glimpse
of a, of the premise of Voyager,

the original premise of the show,
actually working at a hundred percent.

Rob: Yeah, it's definitely what
we were signing up for, and

especially I was signing up for,
going this is something different.

It's not just Next Generation carbon copy.

There is a linear arc
that we can follow here.

And this is what happens if a small
percentage of your ship does not want

to be there, doesn't need to be there,
has no right to be there, um, but

you need to have them there because
you all want to get back um, together

and you've got to see how that works.

And it's a shame it never really ventured
anywhere, like, what we've talked about

many times before with Voyager, they

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: wanted to be brave and bold, but
then they chickened out and just said,

well, let's stick to what we know.

And so you get episodes like this,
which are outliers and don't really

have anything to back them up.

Kevin: Yeah.

There, I mean, there are also
glimpses about why maybe this

couldn't have worked longer form.

Like the, the scenes where they are,
these four officers are unhappy with

their lot and being insubordinate
are objectively unpleasant.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: Uh, and so you stretch that
to a season or more than a season,

and it's like, I'm not sure the long
form version of this is anything

that anyone would want to watch.

But here in a compact, um, one
episode form, it really works.

I really love the, uh, the

Rob: Well maybe they should have
just created their own one person

show to work through their trauma
and then seemed to work all right

and was stop invading insects.

Kevin: Who is that?

Who is that crewman?

Um, Bingston!

There's another one.

There's another one who I'm not
sure I've ever seen Bingston

Rob: I'm

Kevin: If look it up, I'm
sure he's been in 20 episodes.

I really enjoyed the scene in the
mess hall where they have basically

walked out on Tuvok's training.

Tuvok's got Chell running laps of the
cargo bay for insubordination, and the

other three kind of go, Well, screw this.

We're out of here.

Uh, we don't need to put up with this.

Worst case, you could put us
in the brig and that would

be better than this, so we're

And they, they go and have a drink
in the mess hall and Chakotay comes

in and goes, you want to tell me
your version of what happened?

Uh, and they're like, well,
it's completely unreasonable.

We didn't ask for this.

We're being held to a standard
that we didn't choose.

Uh, that's not the Maquis
way of doing things.

And Chakotay goes, Oh, so you'd
like to do it the Maquis way?

And like, that's right.

And so he punches him in the face and
he falls on the ground in mess hall.

And Chakotay goes, Yeah, that's the
Maquis way of settling our differences.

If you want to do it that
way, we're welcome to try.

And the conversation ends there, like the
conflict is more or less resolved at that

point, um, and it is very entertaining.

Works really well for this one episode.

Again, I don't know what the full
length version of that would look like.

Rob: Fair enough too.

It and it's very much a case of that sets
up these four as not only unpleasant to be

about, be around, but also spoiled brats
kind of know, you don't know how good

you've got at being with the Federation.

Kevin: I'm really curious if you tried
to break a season one or two of Voyager

with that tension core to the season
and you go, okay, it's not episodic.

It's a serialized story where, you
know, there's going to be a moment of

truth towards the end of the season.

There's going to be a, uh, a, darkest,
lowest point right near the end of the

season where the crew is completely split.

They have mutinied.

One has run off with the, the saucer
section of the ship, whatever it is.

Like what would the epic version
of this crew splintering and

finding its way back together be?

Perhaps it, perhaps it is great.

Maybe it just couldn't have
happened in the nineties, but,

Rob: Maybe.

Yeah.

It could definitely happen today as
we've seen what they've pushed with,

um, with Discovery, no matter I rail
against Discovery, but they have pushed

arcs hardcore within their storylines
to whatever success they have achieved.

But it's definitely something they
could work on more now, brave enough,

because of shows where narrative over
many seasons is acceptable, like Game

of Thrones, your, um, Westworlds, all
that type of, all those type of shows.

Um, and that would be interesting to
see, you know, it could be a season

arc of the revolution and the split,
and then how, but how is that resolved?

How, how does the Voyager become not
Maquis not Starfleet, its own, its own,

Kevin: At the end of this episode,
like, the, the, the plot point is that

this is resolved, Tuvok ultimately
earns their respect, not by getting

them to adapt to the Starfleet's way
of doing things, but in one critical

moment, Tuvok breaks the rules and
bends to be a little more Maquis.

And they're well, if you can do
that, then you've got our respect.

End of episode.

Rob: Story

Kevin: rest the season series is
100 percent Starfleet standards.

Rob: Again, there's a whole arc of
what new ship, like we said, new

ship, paradigm created from these
two, um, Uh, these two different,

um, ways of doing things from Maquis,

Kevin: told fully that story would end
by Voyager getting back to the Alpha

Quadrant and being a misfit in Starfleet.

Like they, they have changed so
much as a ship and a crew, they,

they don't belong in Starfleet

Rob: they're neither

Kevin: belong in Maquis.

They don't belong in Starfleet.

Are something else entirely.

Rob: That would be satisfying, but
also it's a case of how that could

be corrupted within the Star Trek
world of going, Well, let's learn

from these re revolutionary ways.

And so Janeway is going around
lecture tours going, Well, this

was the Starfleet way, this was the
Maquis way, this was the Voyager way.

Create your own way of doing it.

But watered it down to a point so it's
just like a, uh, a philosophy that you

can put on a t shirt with a cat hanging
onto a branch going, hang in there.

Um, but yeah, that, that would have
been a brave decision of, and that's

what modern Star Trek infuriates
people with, but would be a more

fertile ground of going, this ship
is no longer Federation, or Maquis.

This ship is Voyager,
and this is our rules.

Kevin: The crisis on this episode is
that the gelpacks are all sick with

a virus, and it turns out to have
originated from Neelix's cheese,

which I think, is a, uh, uh, something
that is a callback in some episode of

Lower Decks, uh, and fair enough too.

It is a hilarious lump of cheese
that, makes this ship sick.

Um, yeah, good times.

That, that is definitely a
Season One Voyager crisis.

Rob: Definitely, and we'll
never hear of them again.

Do any of those characters come back?

No.

Kevin: Nope, none at all.

Dalby, Jaron, Henley,
and Chell, we miss you.

Rob: Um, so let's go back
to where it all started.

An episode you have talked about
many times before and we've touched

on in previous seasons of Lower
Decks, but I have never seen.

This is the first time I've finally
watched it and I love how it's referred

to on Wikipedia because I have on
Wikipedia, Lower Decks Star Trek, not to

be confused with Star Trek Lower Decks.

Um,

Kevin: Uh, very good.

We last talked about this in
episode 12 of subspace radio.

So if you want to hear some of my
thoughts on that, that episode was about

characters who are not actually dead.

And I made the point that Star Trek
is capable of killing off people in

a satisfying, uh, Heartfelt Way, and
that happens in this episode with

Sito Jaxa, but there's a lot more to
talk about in this episode, so I can't

wait to hear what you thought it, Rob.

Rob: and obviously Sito Jaxa first
appeared in a previous episode of Next

Generation, uh, involving, Wesley Crusher.

Kevin: Season 5, Episode
19, The First Duty.

Rob: and Tom Paris, not Tom Paris.

Kevin: Yes!

Nick Locarno, yeah.

Rob, the, the homework never ends.

Once you watch, uh, The First Duty,
there will be another episode from there

that you have to go back and watch.

Rob: But I'm all doing it, you know, the
long way around, as you would expect.

Yeah, so Lower Decks is basically,
um, the revolutionary idea, but

it's two narratives at once, really.

We have what the upper deckers are doing,
and what the lower deckers are doing.

And so the story starts, it's
a really cute way of doing it.

It starts with Riker and Troi sitting
there having a drink, talking about, oh,

we've got these evaluations, oh, we've
got to pick all these type of things, oh,

too tired and too exhausted to do this.

And then the camera moves to the
table behind the main action, and

it's four lower deckers sitting around
going, Why are they smiling about?

That's how, that's how
evaluations they're dealing

You go, this is where
we're going this episode.

We are focusing on those people
that we've had mentioned before,

but never seen, and now see them.

And so we have, um, uh, four
Lower Deckers and a bartender

like, who's like standing Guinan?

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

We've got, we've got Lavelle,
who is a little more like Riker

than either of them would like to

Rob: Is he from Canada or Alaska?

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

Sito Jaxa, who we've talked about already.

There's Taurik, a Vulcan who annoys
Geordi because he has too many good ideas.

And, uh, Ben, the bartender.

And I read, uh,

Rob: And Alyssa as

Kevin: Oh yeah, Alyssa
Ogawa, who's a nurse.

We do see Ogawa, Nurse Ogawa, in a lot
of Star Trek Next Generation episodes.

She's in a bunch, she's in the movies
as well, so a recurring guest star, but

she, it's, she does a nice job of being
that, um, that link with these people.

That, hey, someone we've seen repeatedly
is friends with these people, so

they're not completely disconnected.

Um, Yeah, uh, I read some behind
the scenes stuff about, uh, the

casting of that bartender, Ben.

They got through, you know, some of the
auditions, and they had their favorite,

who was this guy, and they stopped and,
um, went, Is it, is it inappropriate,

we've already got Whoopi Goldberg running
the bar, is it inappropriate that our

second bartender with speaking lines in
Ten Forward is also African American?

Um, and you know, this was the early
90s, it was, uh, it was, uh, The,

the, um, cultural awakening to these
issues was not what it is today.

And yet they were still asking the
question, and they were starting

to feel uncomfortable about it.

And until they, one of the producers
said, you realize if you follow this

logic to its conclusion, this guy, this
guy, this African American who you're

trying to do right by loses a job, right?

And they're like, Oh yeah, we
should probably just cast him.

Rob: Because he was great.

Was really good.

Really great energy, charisma,
confidence on screen.

Kevin: They said on the, on the casting
page, he was like someone who just

caught a ride on the starship and didn't
care about rank or, the protocol and

was just there to have a good time.

Rob: Well, it's a beautiful moment,
obviously, when, you know, both upper

and lower deckers are playing poker.

Um, and Ben wipes the floor with the
lower deckers and just effortlessly

just moves into the upper deckers.

Goes, Well, you know,
they're all finished up.

I want to keep on playing.

I want to, you know,
take you guys for a ride.

Kevin: Yeah, I mean, you could totally
see Whoopi Goldberg in that position,

but to see someone else, um, and
someone unfamiliar, like the fact

that he is there and gone makes him
that much more, uh, mysterious and

tantalizing as a presence on the ship.

Rob: He doesn't even
have a link on Wikipedia.

Um, so yeah, these four characters that,
you know, obviously, uh, with Alyssa

appearing before and also Sito appearing
before, but for the most part, this is

the most time we've spent with them.

We get, get the ins and outs of
their dynamics rather quickly.

Um, and where they all stand and how they
stand with the other members of the crew.

And that's the big thing here,
because it's the start of it all.

It's very much a case of their
relationship to the characters we know.

So, you know.

Um, Sam is always looking up to
Riker, how to appeal to Riker.

Um, Sito's got her relationship with
Riker, but also her relationship with a

Worf, also her relationship with Picard.

Um, Taurik, his big
relationship is with Geordi.

And, um, and Alyssa, her
connection with Beverly Crusher.

Kevin: I agree.

This, the point of this episode
is not that that other, the

usual crew is completely absent.

It's a shift in perspective.

We see them through the
eyes of the lower decks.

Rob: Exactly, exactly.

And how the characters we know interact
with, it's almost a case of we are

the lower deckers, and so if we were
on the ship, how would we be treated

by these characters that we've been
watching for seven years and how would,

would, would they get on with us?

Would they like us?

Would we know what to say with them?

Would we order a drink, have a talk about
Canada and, you know, Alaska and then

walk off without even taking your drink?

Kevin: So who's the best manager
and who's the worst manager

in eyes from this episode?

Rob: Um, it's gotta, if, it's,
it's gotta be Geordi for me.

Geordi, for best, I reckon.

I yeah.

Kevin: He's so, he's so impatient
with Taurik, and he never says to

Taurik, um, it's not you, it's me.

I'm just annoyed I didn't know about
that, sorry for my short temper.

Or, like, he does where he goes, I
would be open to your suggestions

anytime, and Tarek goes, oh, do
you have some time right now?

I'll back to you.

Rob: May, maybe that's the
teacher in me going, that's going.

Maybe that's what I can relate
with the most going, yeah, that's

how you cope in this situation.

Not everything's Dead Poet society or Mr.

Holland's Opus.

Um, but, uh, yeah, and like for
me, uh, oh, no, Worf does a really

good job, like he tries to do.

Kevin: beats her up a little
bit, but he makes his point.

Rob: And yeah, he realizes he's done
something wrong, and then when she

goes, there was no such thing, was it?

You just made this up?

He goes, yes, I did.

For me, Riker's pretty shit.

He's very much full of
himself in this episode.

He's much, he's Riker, Riker
squared in this, going, oh,

Kevin: Oh, I'm celebrity.

Rob: He's trying so hard, you

Kevin: Oh, that scene at the bar in Ten
Forward is quite fun though, um, because

Lavelle does make such an ass of himself.

Uh, he clearly walked over with
no plan other than, I'm gonna say

Canada and he's gonna love me.

And he orders a drink even though
he's holding one, he gets the

country wrong, and then he leaves
before his drink arrives, and just,

Riker does a beautiful job of just
going, yep, this guy's an idiot.

Rob: But like it's the, it's the, it's
the whole never meet your heroes, Kevin.

Have you ever had a moment where you
met someone famous or important to you

and you kind of stuffed it up and you
just go, well, I'm never getting that

Kevin: Yeah.

Um, yeah, Lavelle, I,
I don't, I never quite.

warmed up to that character.

I don't know if it's something the actor
is doing, something in the script, um,

but I mean, he's clearly meant to be a
little hopeless and not quite likable.

And the fact that he has so much
of Riker, or Riker has so much of

Lavelle in him is kind of the point.

That point would not work if Lavelle
had his crap together a little more.

Nevertheless, when Lavelle gets
the pip at the end of the episode,

I'm not entirely happy for him.

Rob: Like, yeah, it's very much a case
of he is, like the casting of that

actor, um, and the, the look of him.

He's a very attractive, very chiseled,
um, cliched, attractive person.

He

Kevin: I hope he's not listening
because I'm going to say something

here, which is that in my mind,
he is a low budget Tom Cruise.

Rob: Ooh, okay.

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep,

Kevin: Maybe that's not a bad thing to
be as an actor, a low budget Tom Cruise,

because Cruise in the description.

Rob: I'm being very diplomatic
and you just, you, you went

full Riker right there.

Um, so that got in the way of
me, you know, he was sort of

like a hopeless version of that.

So he, he had the looks of the
matinee idol lead guy, but to

Kevin: a lot of, uh,
soap opera leading role

Rob: Yes, yes, from what I can see, uh,
uh, yeah, he was on soap opera Once in a

Life, uh, he was on the sitcom Ellen, a
big role, he was in, uh, Teen Witch, 1989

movie, uh, in the TV series Tour of Duty,
so, definitely filling that role, and,

um, just a jobbing actor getting from, uh,
uh, uh, you know, contract to contract.

Kevin: I can see the
description of the page.

It's like Riker type, but with, uh,
with insecurity behind the eyes.

And that is certainly what, what
he was bringing to the show.

Rob: Um, yeah, yes, the character is,
like, an interesting experiment in what,

if you have all the physical attributes
of being, uh, a first officer, you know,

ops hero, um, but you're, you know,
you, it doesn't come to you easily.

So that's an interesting, um, experiment,
uh, to explore, but whether it's

actually appealing, uh, is not so much.

Um, Taurik was great because you see the
extra effort that, how Vulcans can be

annoying, because they're going above and
beyond, and they, you know, even though

you're not telling me all the information,
I figured it out, tell you I figured

it out, because I want to impress you.

And so, yeah, I have students
like that all the time.

Um, but yeah, the standout in this is,
of course, uh, Shannon Fill as, uh,

Sito Jaxa, um, not only because we've
talked about her before and I was just

so impressed by the fact that she had
pretty much gone off the radar, had

given up acting, um, but the Lower Decks
people were able to, you know, persuade

her and she came back for a flashback
episode of uh Lower Decks and bless

her for that because you know it turns
out she was best friends with Mariner.

And I couldn't stop but watch the
episode go you know Mariner, you

know Mariner you know Mariner.

Kevin: I have not seen The First Duty in
a while, but I think it, it's probably not

surprising that she has a lot more to do
here than she did in that first episode.

She really is the heart and, and
carries this episode emotionally.

Uh, the effect that, um, Picard's
dressing down has on her is, is,

um, sold through her performance.

Rob: Yeah.

I wasn't really sold on the fact of
like you know at the end he's so harsh

with her which he was very much season
one Picard um and then he goes well

I brought you here because I want
you know and then they go oh come on.

Kevin: A little too cute?

Rob: Little bit too cute and, come
on Patrick, I know you didn't write

the script Patrick, you know that,
uh, but that was a bit too cute

going, you know, I'm being harsh to
you because I love you, I'm going,

Kevin: That's a, that's a very 90s trope.

That probably wouldn't stand up today.

Rob: so much, not so

Kevin: Pike on, uh, on Strange New Worlds
probably couldn't get away with that.

Rob: Pike would not do that.

Our Pike would not do that.

Him and his beautiful bouffant.

Um, um, but yes, Shannon had a lot to
do and she did really well with it.

Um, I know we talked about a lot
leading up to it, but the actual

moment of her death is off screen.

We're so used to big epic deaths and stuff
like that, you kind of forget the, um, uh,

the economy of 90s television, that you
only have so much time and only so much

money to put into things, so it's, so the
last shot you see of her is getting on

her handcuffs to pretend, and everything
else is implied and talked about.

Kevin: I find that very effective
uh, you don't even have a moment

to say goodbye to the It happens
in the shuttle bay with Worf, but

you don't realize it's happening.

Rob: And because I knew it was
coming, I saw, I could see that

they put more time into it.

And of course, in, um, what modern
television do now, because they

kill off characters so quickly, you
don't realize it until they die at

the end of the episode, you go, oh,
of course, they were given so many

dialogue, so many monologues, and so
many moments within this episode, but

she doesn't really get that, because

Kevin: so effective to me here is,
at this time, Sito Jaxa was not what

Sito Jaxa would become in Lower Decks.

This is meant to be a story
about our bridge officers and

the this death has on them.

And so, those, those emotional beats
don't come from Sito Jaxa and their

reaction to her death directly.

In, in a very effective way,
they come before her death.

You get to see how Picard sends someone
on a likely suicide mission, and how

Worf, you know, ushers his protege onto
the, uh, shuttlecraft, wishes her luck

knowing she, she may not, and possibly,
likely will not come back alive.

And that's not something we get
to see in Star Trek very often.

Like, the payoff of sending someone
on a suicide mission, uh, and

living with that, giving that order.

Rob: But even Yeah, and the moment
when they go, well how are we going

to get this, you're going to have
to take someone in there, into the

Cardassian space, who are you going
to, who are you going to get for that?

But also, especially with my time watching
Deep Space Nine to go back in the early

stages, because Deep Space Nine would
have been running a year or two at this

point, second, was it in its second year,

Kevin: in the second year, yeah.

Rob: Yeah.

So, to know all the stuff beforehand of
the Bajorans and the Cardassians of what

they've explored in Deep Space Nine, to
go watch this while Deep Space Nine is in

its second year, to see a Bajoran and a
Cardassian together, um, and having this

talk, uh, and, uh, Um, is incredible.

Kevin: But yeah, going back to that
scene with Picard that you were talking

about where he says, I asked for you
on this ship, I wanted to see you

get a fair chance to redeem yourself.

To me, the other thing that's
going on in that scene is Picard

also knows he is sending her to
her death, more than possibly.

Um, and it starts in that very, like,
that moment just outside sickbay where he

clocks her, takes a beat, and then goes
inside, and he has already decided at

that point, she is his first pick for this
mission, in which she will likely die.

And so when he's giving her that sort
of pep talk on the way out the door,

it's the, it's that duality of, yes,
I'm saying this to make you feel good.

But I want to make you, I have
to make you feel good so that you

will do this fatal thing for me.

Uh, and that is so loaded, it is
delicious when you look for it.

Rob: And it's weird because, you
know, we've just talked about in the

last episode how easy you could just
cosmetically alter someone to look like a

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, we got
another, uh, plastic surgery job.

Sito down to, uh, sickbay to
get her bruises on her face.

Rob: Yeah, but they could have easily just
transformed anyone into Bajoran bumps.

Um, and, uh, yeah, and just the
light hearted nature of, uh,

looks like I've been beaten up.

Ha ha ha ha.

Um, and you go, yeah, but the fact that
Picard went, no, no, no, they need to

be a Bajoran, and they need to actually
be a Bajoran, so that tension is there.

Hoo, that, yeah, that type of stuff, you
go into the manipulation of power, and,

and, and what is important at that moment.

But it is that reaction, how our
lead characters that we know deal

with these characters that are
normally just faceless redshirts.

Nameless

Kevin: It's often said that Next Gen
peaked in season six and in season

seven, they were kind of treading water a
little but episodes like this, um, remind

me just how good, like if, if season
six was the peak, this, this slightly

short of the peak is still in my mind,
as good as Star Trek has ever been.

Rob: And especially your talk when
we've talked about before, when it

comes to, to Ro and the, um, the tension
that Bajoran had to go in with being

a part of Starfleet and losing their,
um, you know, what defines Bajoran

culture is its religion, really.

And so not being able to wear their
earpieces and to have, uh, Sito Jaxa not

have the Bajoran earpieces because they're
in Starfleet and they're not allowed.

Kevin: even mentioned.

Rob: Not even mention, it's just
like, for a moment, I was, uh, for a

second I went, is she actually Bajor?

And then, yeah, um,

Kevin: reaction when she steps in the
observation lounge and sees the Cardassian

across the table, you really are, she sold
that she's a Bajoran, like that weight

of history was there in the performance,
even though that actor probably, you

know, she was selling something that
had not been a part of creating.

Rob: And isn't that, isn't that what
the joy of being an actor is about.

And so, my hat's off, it was an honor to
get, cause, to actually finally watch this

episode, and we've talked so much about
Shannon Fill before, you beforehand, and

I've heard her obviously coming back.

But to actually watch this performance,
so I'll look forward to going back and

watching, uh, her first appearance.

First Duty?

Kevin: Yeah, that's right.

Rob: Um, yeah, it was an
honor to watch her here.

She really knocked it out of the park.

And yeah, that shame of she didn't
get to have her big final performance.

It was off screen and that's the
tragedy of her character's loss.

Um, and the power of that episode and it's
a shame it was such an episodical series

because the power of what could have been
explored that season if those characters

came back and to see that connection
at the end of the episode built between

Worf, the beginning of that relationship
between Worf and the other Lower

Kevin: Mmm, yeah.

Rob: that would have been amazing
to explore which you would

do in modern shows nowadays.

But a part of me watching
it going, and that's it.

And when we get to the end of the
episode, I went, that's all we'll have.

And it's a shame.

It's a moment of going, because in
90s it's going, let's leave them

with that tantalizing that they can

Kevin: can, they can tell that story
for themselves in their head, but

Rob: Or fanfiction.

But in nowadays, they go,
no, we will explore that.

We'll go and we'll see Lavelle come back
and see whether we actually like him.

You know, Alyssa finding out that her,
you know, fiancé is dating other women.

Kevin: Uh, shout out, uh, we should
take a moment to, uh, um, recognize

Patti Yasutake who played Nurse Ogawa.

She died just last year of a rare
form of cancer and uh, gone soon.

Rob: She did.

I knew there was a connection.

I remember seeing that pop up last
year and there was a lot of, um,

tributes to her coming out from not
only people within, uh, the Star

Trek world but the cast as well, um,
and I've made that connection now.

Yes.

Kevin: This is probably the closest
we got to that character in all her

time, but she was, she was the constant
present in, presence in sickbay with Dr.

Crusher.

She was like Dr.

Crusher's right hand, um, officer
in sickbay, both here in the

series and in the movies beyond.

And,

Rob: She's kind of like the,
um, uh, Nurse Kelly from, uh, M.

A.

S.

H.

Um, uh, Nurse Kelly was, uh, um,
Hawaiian actress and, uh, she was

pretty much always in the background
for most of the run of of M.

A.

S.

H.

became this just reoccurring
character who never had much stories

Kevin: Lines here or there, the
story was not about them except in

this uh, but their presence really
sold the reality of the world.

Rob: Yeah, so yeah, it was, it was
a, I'm, I'm glad we, uh, decided

to do this and, and, and it's a
shame I haven't watched it before.

It was a great to watch and,
um, yeah, beautiful episode.

Kevin: Yeah.

Well, there's just two left in Lower
Decks, and, uh, they're a bit of a,

uh, kind of a two parter to the finish.

Not exactly, but kind of, uh, of a piece.

Um, so I look forward to chatting
about them in the next couple

of episodes of Subspace Radio.

And then we'll be right on time for
our big movie event, Section 31.

Rob: Section 31, which I have no
excitement or interest in, but

Kevin: No, I'm, am I

Rob: glad it's a

Kevin: not my hopes up that my
expectations are so low it can

only be a pleasant surprise.