Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello, and welcome
to Subspace Radio.

It's episode 71 for us.

It's episode nine for
Lower Decks season five.

We're here to talk about
Fissure Quest and I am Kevin.

Rob: And I am Rob, and I
friggin hate the multiverse.

Kevin: So, so, uh, so good.

I only saw in hindsight what they
did there is they knew the amount

of multiversal apathy there is among
genre fiction consumers like us.

And so they got ahead of it with
Boimler being more frustrated about

it that any of us could possibly be.

Rob: And yeah, it's the perfect, uh,
uh, commentary on where the, the pop

culture world is at the moment with,
uh, so much stuff focusing on, uh,

Well, it hasn't been coined multiverse
until like within the last couple of

years, but before that it was, you
know, parallel dimensions, alternate

dimensions, all that type of stuff.

Sliders created an entire existence
with our dear old Ransom, uh, Jerry

O'Connell, in that show as well.

But multiverse has now become the go-to
word that has not struck excitement or

joy, but dread, fear, and annoyance.

Not only with pop culture fans
and nerds everywhere, but also

characters in said pop culture shows.

Kevin: The grand removal of
stakes, as I like to think of it.

Rob: Yeah, very much so.

Anything is possible, nothing
is interesting, and no one dies.

Kevin: Yeah.

But, uh, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

Uh, I think, uh, it's, it's worth calling
out that the thing that we saw in this

episode that we most wanted to talk about
was, uh, some of our returning characters,

specifically Harry Kim and T'Pol.

T'Pol, Rob!

Rob: T'Pol is back!

And uh, it was so fresh in my mind
after watching it when we decided,

oh wait, there's been so much talk.

We've talked about it on
this podcast many times.

Harry Kim has to show up at some point.

He has been alluded to, he's been the
go to joke within the Star Trek world.

And I just said, we've got to do
Harry Kim, we've got to do Harry Kim.

You compromised and said,
well, let's do Kim and T'Pol.

I was so excited by that, I forgot
the biggest thing we should have

focused on, which was Garak and Bashir.

Kevin: We could have done a
whole episode on Garak and Bashir

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: absolutely.

Um, but yes, we'll talk about all
of that as we, uh, walk through our

favorite moments of this episode
and then, and then dwell on some

Kim and T'Pol outings of the past.

So let's get into it.

Fissure Quest, what did you think, Rob?

Rob: Look, um, despite all of William
Boimler, our lead character in this

one, of course, the, the clone of,
uh, Brad Boimler, who, uh, we thought

had died, but had gone to a parallel
dimension, is now, uh, leading a ship

that looks a lot like the Defiant, but
it has its own name, and trying to stop,

um, uh, these dimensional fissures.

Um, and despite the fact that he does
not like it at all, and he's so sick

and tired of the multiverse, this is
one of the freshest and most enjoyable,

uh, multiverse adventures I've ever
seen in any medium, particularly how

they explain how this is another form
of exploring a final frontier, uh,

with some of the characters returned.

It is dropping so many nerd drops,
uh, so many nerd cookies, um, so

many memory bites, so many characters
are coming back in this one.

All of the original actors coming back to
play them as well, which I was shocked by.

I thought that Garak and Bashir were,
were just um, uh, sound alikes, but no,

they got, um, them all back as well,
and uh, I was just about to say, Alfre

Kevin: As soon as she went,
Hang on, you're Lily Sloan!

I went, there is no way
they got Alfre Woodard.

But there she was in the

Rob: The great Alfre.

If Alfre Woodard could do Desperate
Housewives season 2, then she

will definitely come and do, uh,
a return of her character that

she played in First Contact for

Kevin: Look, the only thing they didn't
do is they didn't get the old man

who played Curzon in the flashbacks
of Deep Space Nine to come and lend

his voice to the character here.

We assume.

As far as we

Rob: As far as we know, he is
well and truly dead and buried.

He did sound like one

Kevin: Look, I'll say,

Rob: He sounded like Shaxs.

He sounded like Shaxs to me.

Kevin: Oh, he sounded like Shaxs.

That makes sense.

I was gonna say he sounded
like Rene Auberjonois to me.

Every time he opened his mouth,
I kind of felt like it was Odo.

Rob: Ah, well, there is the
episode where, oh, where René

Auberjonois has to play Curzon,
because he slips into the, when they

Kevin: Maybe that's why.

Yeah.

Rob: Um, yeah, I loved it.

I had so much fun.

They have so much disrespect for the
multiverse, but so much respect for

Star Trek, and so much nerdy respect for
Star Trek, and also, like I said, they

showed a little nod of how, you know,
Lily sees this as the final frontier.

This is the fun.

A universe to explore, which, um, I
think is no other, no other multiverse

has yet explored, uh, it in that way.

And I'm so, so, so very
thrilled that they did it.

It was a great penultimate
episode for the, for the not

only season, the whole show.

What about you?

Kevin: My overarching thought
is this is how you do an end

of series crossover event.

If Star Trek Enterprise showed us how
not to do it, this is how you do it.

Um, so infamously Star Trek Enterprise's
final episode is a crossover with

Star Trek The Next Generation.

And we have Riker and Troi in there.

And our main cast of characters and
their stories are kind of sidelined for

the final episode of their own series.

Rob: we use here, they are the B plot.

Kevin: Yeah, and you can totally
see how they got there, but also the

lesson is clearly there to be learned.

And they did it in the
right order this time.

Fissure Quest is where we, you
know, pile on everyone who is left

on our wish list of guest stars and
return characters from the past.

Let's find an excuse to pile them
all into one episode and do it right,

and then clear the table for our, our
main cast to be the stars of their

own show in the finale next week.

Rob: Most definitely, yeah.

It was a smart move, a clever
move, and beautiful writing.

Excellently executed, um.

Kevin: The way they dovetailed those
two things really work for me as well.

Like this whole episode is a setup for
the crisis that our main characters

will have to resolve next week So
that dynamic, uh, it really it was

satisfying to watch in real time and
then looking back on what they did.

I just have to like, you know,
give them the respect they're due.

They did it right, the end of this series
and the way this, this particular episode

functions as a setup is, is so good.

We, we did not allow, uh, all of
these guests to upstage our own

characters in their own show.

Um.

That said, so delightful.

Yes.

Every single one of them, Garak and
Holo Bashir, Curzon Dax, T'Pol, Harry

Kim, who says, Whoa, whoa, whoa.

There's more than two dimensions?

Every single one of them was both
a loving homage, but also like

poking fun at the characters too.

Like this was not a respectful
return of Harry Kim or Curzon

Dax or any of the above.

All of them were allowed to play
their own foibles and, and just as

Lower Decks always does for Star Trek,
uh, poke knowing fun at themselves.

Rob: Yes, very much so.

The sheer shock and awe when they
see that the latest Harry Kim that

has joined the ship has got two pips.

But I also found it was, you know, it
was respectfully disrespectful, which

is the best kind of writing, but only,
you know, it's very, it's very muddy

water when you get a fan of a show
to be in charge or in, involved in

some sort of the writing of a show.

So we've had slips of that
within, um, uh, Doctor Who.

We've had that slips
within some of Star Wars.

But, um, there are some things that
only fans know how to handle and handle

well without getting caught up in
continuity or canon or anything like that.

So, to show, like you said, the foibles
of each of these characters, but still

have a respectful moment, say, at the,
without grand ending of, uh, Curzon.

That was done in such a beautiful way
that two characters that we had never

seen connected before, T'Pol and Curzon,
within 20 minutes, we are heartbroken.

Kevin: the katra of the other
into the future of Star Trek lore.

Amazing.

Rob: Incredible stuff.

Um, really beautiful stuff.

And you know, how the relationship between
Garak and Bashir plays out, which is, Such

an, uh, online, phenomenon, you know, this
has become, this has grown, you know, so

much so that, you know, um, uh, the actors
have recorded of, over Zoom calls, scripts

written by fans about how they're married
and all this type of stuff, they've

sort of like, fandom has willed this gay
relationship into existence, which is

amazing, and still has the multiverse,
you know, get out jail free card by going,

Oh, they're from a different dimension.

Kevin: Yeah, at the risk of preempting
next week's episode where we talk

about the finale, what blows my
mind is that at the ending of all

of this, these two characters are
like known to the prime universe.

So, If you'll accept that, our Garak
and Bashir are going to get to find

out that there are alternate universe
versions of themselves that are married.

That is especially delightful.

It doesn't, like, it moved beyond fandom.

Not just into canon, but, um, one presumes
into the awareness of the characters.

Rob: It will be very interesting to
see how long Bashir will stay with

Ezri Dax in the prime universe.

What I could do that?

Kevin: The return of William Boimler
took me a second to get my head around.

He was last seen at the end of Crisis
Point 2: Paradoxus, Season 3, Episode

8, where that character, we knew him to
be on the Titan, and in that episode,

it was established in dialogue that he
had died in a neuro, freak neurazine

gas accident in his quarters, and then
in, as a post credit scene, we find out

he was, that death was actually faked
by Section 31, and William Boimler

was going away to work in Section 31.

And I kind of had lost track
in my mind of the fact that

that was an unresolved thread.

Uh, and so the fact that
they, they skipped past, okay,

how did he get recruited?

Why did he get recruited?

They skipped right to, oh
yeah, he's the captain of that

Defiant class ship that we saw.

Uh, and he is hunting down,
um, the creator of these, these

fissures between realities.

Like, a huge leap there.

It was like, Oh, hang on, give
me a second to catch up again.

Who is this?

And what do we know about him?

Uh, it, uh, it, it kind
of came out of nowhere.

I'm, I'm glad they wrapped up that
dangling thread, but, uh, yeah,

it was off my radar as something
to be looking for this season.

Rob: Yeah, it definitely was, uh, it took
me a moment to go, oh yeah, that's right,

he didn't die, and there was that post
credits, uh, scene, but there's definitely

a different energy, and it's great work
from Jack Quaid to be able to get so much

out of his Boimler, um, different lev yes.

Yeah, um, incredible stuff.

It's just,

Kevin: has a, has a beard,
but a very short beard.

So to distinguish him from,
uh, our prime Boimler.

Rob: It's more three day growth
as opposed to the full beard,

but it is a lot more even.

It's like Rutherford's even
three day growth, which,

Kevin: Well kept stubble.

Rob: Well kept, well manicured, or,

Kevin: and lest, uh, let us not
forget, um, Mariner as well.

Yellow shirt Mariner or as, as I like
to think of her just yellow Mariner

because she's scared of her own shadow.

Uh, and, uh, a beautiful turn for that
character and that actor as well to

get to play a very different dimension.

In a way, uh, because Boimler is literally
a transporter clone of the character we

know, so he's very similar, just same
character in different circumstances.

But the Mariner we got to
meet here was very different.

And when Boimler, you know,
banged the table and said, what?

And she goes, don't do that!

I really, really liked
how different she was.

Rob: Yes, it was quite a, uh, a jarring
adjustment to go back to real, uh,

Mariner, uh, in the next episode.

Spoilers, we've already seen it,
but we've already talked about it.

They go, oh no, that's right,
she's a lot more ballsy bold.

But yeah, to have that Mariner with
the doubt played up on her sleeve

and that self doubt in herself and
fear and, you know, the nerdiness of

Mariner is, you know, is center as
opposed to sort of like push behind

so that the bravado can play out.

Kevin: Yeah.

Her, her communication style is the same,
but the motivation behind it is different.

Like, I really love the line when
she's checking out, um, when she's

checking out Lily Sloan's USS Beagle
and they're looking at the green pipes

underneath and she's like, so this is
what lets you travel through realities.

And she says, well, yeah,
unobserved complex gluon cores.

And Marina goes, well, you might
want to observe a couple because

they're effed, was hilarious.

Um, and, and yes, reluctantly I
had, I had to laugh at the, uh,

the deployment of profanity there.

It's really gotten especially thick and
fast here towards the end of the series.

I feel like at the start it was still
kind of, uh, taboo to use, to use the

spicy language, even here in Lower Decks.

But now at the end it's like three,
three swears a minute sort of pace.

Rob: And I don't know, I guess because
we do have the bleep sound, so it's

almost like the, the Star Trek universe
is bleeping it personally, like,

Kevin: I like that take, yeah.

Rob: Um, so like hearing it in Picard
and stuff like that, oh, the fucking

hubris, I'm going, no, no, no, no, I'd be
okay with it if the, if the omnipresent

Star Trek universe bleeped it out in,

Kevin: Yes.

Yes.

Rob: So, I mean, my, my highlight
for me is a great moment right at

the end, of course, which we all
knew was gonna come, where William

Boimler goes, we've, we've sent the
disaster into our prime dimension.

He'll know how to deal with it,
of course, unless he freaks out.

And he cuts back, and he just
goes, WE'RE ALL GONNA FUCKIN DIE!

Kevin: The definitive Boimler scream, I
feel like, as he ran off, like clanging

pots and pans in the soundtrack.

Rob: And the scream just got higher,
and higher, and higher in pitch.

It was, yeah, great way to, great way
to go, we're never gonna hear that

scream again, unless it's in repeat,
but, let's, let's end on a high.

And like, literally, a high note.

So yeah, I just, you know,
I'm just gushing about it.

I can't talk about specifics,
I'm, you know, we go to a alien

planet where, where, you know, the
creatures we have seen before are

no longer nice, they are evil, yes.

Kevin: Evil Khwopians.

Least they aren't trying to
drink our bones, was the line

in there if you were paying

Rob: That's right.

Kevin: So, nice veiled
reference to Moopsy.

Rob: Moopsy, god bless Moopsy.

Um, yeah, it was great having, you
know, Alfre Woodard there with her, you

know, voice of power, experience, charm,

Kevin: I loved, you talked about it
before, but I want to plus one it.

The, the concept that we explore strange
new versions of ourselves is an incredible

idea that, uh, Truly original concepts
in Star Trek are so rare to encounter.

And this is one of them that
really inspired me as well.

And I love how they dealt with it because
they knew they would, it would take

us a second to get our heads around.

And so they allowed, they allowed our
characters to have the same reaction.

And so, yeah, um, Lily patiently explains.

Yeah, Zef took a while
to understand it as well.

And, um, Yeah, her, her talking about
the fact that she's seen humans who

built rings around the sun, ships
the size of continents, and that she

explores what humans can be mapping their
potential is, is, yeah, I love that.

Rob: I mean, as a young sci fi fan,
I got really into the concept of

parallel dimensions and stuff like
that, and I was so excited by shows

that touched on it a little bit, um.

Or, or films and stuff like that, which
was very rare growing up in like the, the

80s and 90s with that type of concept.

Um, uh, of course Sliders happened
and that just became more and more of

a disappointment as it went along and
didn't really fully explore the concept.

And then I've sort of like become the
guy who makes, I'm the nerd on stage

who makes the gag about the fact that
parallel dimensions are only, you know,

represented by zeppelins in the air, um,
which a lot of parallel dimensions do.

Like anytime in Doctor Who they
went to a parallel dimension, how do

we know it's a parallel dimension?

Zeppelins.

Um, but to have,

Kevin: Neelix with a crew cut?

Really big Spock?

Rob: Or evil dimension
beard, um, or eyepatch.

Kevin: Really big Spock, a lovely

Rob: Really big Spock, that's right.

Um, but I just, yeah, love, uh, Lily's
exploration of going this, you know,

seeing what humans are, the potential
of humans and what they're capable of.

Kevin: I can't think of a better pitch
for a reincarnation of this series

because that's the problem with this,
this idea that parallel dimensions are

places where the truly bizarre, like,
uh, what if questions can be explored?

Like, what if things were fundamentally
completely different in a way?

How would that twist things, um
is, uh, interesting to explore.

It's just very interesting.

It's very hard to explore on
a TV budget for live action.

And so animation lets you go there.

We see that in the Marvel What If…?

series being animated is that
they can do anything because

they just have to draw it.

Rob: And to varying, to varying success
of how, of how far the potential goes.

Or they just go, let's
do a little tweak here.

But yeah, the animation really
explores it in going, let's

do a full episode of zombies.

Let's do all that type of stuff, so.

Kevin: Yeah.

And, and Lily's speech about the nature
of her exploration mission is to me a

pitch for this show to return and to
pay off what they've established here.

Um if they truly lean into that and it
becomes maybe not so much a Star Trek

comedy, but maybe it still is, but
the the show is And the stories are

powered by the truly weird and strange?

I wonder where that could take us.

It could probably take us some really
funny places, but it could probably also

take us some really poignant places.

Uh, and every single character from an
alternate universe in this episode is

kind of a hint of the kind of stories
that we could tell with those tools.

Rob: Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, there's, there's a lot of potential
there as long as, um, you know, uh,

everyone is kept on a really, you know,
tight leash to explore as far as they

can and not, yeah, it's, stay true to
that mission statement of what Lily said.

Um, I particularly like,
uh, the title of the Beagle.

Uh, obviously the same name
as, um, Charles Darwin's ship

when he explored the Galapagos.

So, uh, nice little hints there.

Always love a good little nugget
of an easter egg, whether it's

a Star Trek reference or just a,
you know, a nugget from history.

Kevin: The shape of that ship
is a nugget from Star Trek.

It is modeled after the USS Enterprise
XCV 330 prototype that is sketched in like

pencil drawing form on the wall of the
Enterprise NX 01 in Star Trek Enterprise

and on the rec deck in Star Trek The
Motion Picture, that, that big set where

the whole crew kind of comes together
for an all hands meeting at the start.

Um, there are some drawings of Enterprises
past on the wall and one of those

is this ring ship that for the first
time we get to see in flight here.

Yeah, it's appeared in three places.

It's also appeared in Admiral
Forest's office in, um, I think

Star Trek Into Darkness, the bad
admiral in Star Trek Into Darkness.

He's got that whole row of ships, and you
know how infamously the big scary ship

at the end is right there on his desk at
the beginning, if you're looking for it?

One of the other ships in that
row is this same ring ship as

Rob: Yes.

That's it.

It's gorgeous.

Gorgeous.

Yes.

Love the, the ring design of it.

Kevin: Uh, so yeah, not, not, anything bad
to say about this episode, I have to say.

They, they knocked it out of the park.

I was, um, I was like, my mouth
was hanging open for most of this

at what they've, not only what
they've done, the scope of their

ambition, but also what they achieve,
like how well it came together.

Rob: The, the comedy, the drama, the
science fiction element of it, how they

brought a new way of looking at this.

You know, we literally start off
within the first five minutes, Boimler

going, I fucking hate the multiverse.

To then end with, with Alfre Woodard
voicing, uh, Sloane going, you know,

this is the potential of what a
multiverse, uh, exploration is all about.

Plus you have Harry Kim's mutiny against
the evil Harry Kim, who's got two pips.

It's just that it works
on all, uh, levels.

And yeah, just, of course, Garak
is going to be the lover in a

relationship who outwardly antagonizes
his lover because it is fun.

Kevin: Yep.

Rob: He literally says,
why are you doing this?

He goes, because it's fun.

That's

Kevin: No, it's not!

Uh, the idea that a hologram
would make their, their, um, their

solid partner sleep on the floor,
uh, is pretty funny as well.

And I think for me, the height of
the episode is T'Pol agreeing that

"big Starfleet nerd" is an accurate
description of Jonathan Archer.

Rob: Yes, that's right.

That's right.

And who calls him a big,
big, um, Starfleet nerd?

Was it?

Yeah,

Kevin: I think it's

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, That is an accurate

Kevin: Um, yes, T'Pol was great.

You and I were talking off recording
about the fact that she asked to be

only credited as Jolene and the, the
show runners said, whatever you want,

we're not even going to ask questions.

Rob: Heh heh heh!

Whatever you want, whatever
you need, we'll give to you.

I mean, they've, they've pulled some
remarkable, uh, rabbits out of the

hat, uh, the Lower Decks people.

What, who they've been able to get back,
who they've been able to get on board.

And, I mean, acting is acting, I
get that, and actors would love to

do it, but considering some actors
have, have given it up, you know?

In the case of some of the, uh, uh, some
of the actors have moved on with their

lives and have no reason to come back for,
you know, a thankless 20 minute episode of

an animated series for them to come back
and be honored in that way and to be seen.

Uh, by the writers and the producers
and be going, I want to be a part of

that, especially for characters have
been given such derision from the fandom

or the negative feedback for, for, um,
you know, for returns like, uh, T'Pol,

um, uh, our, our one name actress,
um, is, is, is a really powerful,

uh, way of, um, celebrating Everyone.

I mean, Doctor Who's quite good at that.

They used to do that quite well back in
the noughties, uh, early noughties when

they released a lot of the DVDs, uh,
and so they do a lot of special features

where they would just find these actors
who hadn't done the show in like 30, 40

years, but just, jobbing actor on the
set for two or three days, but they're

being interviewed about their life,
their career, their connection to Who.

I love this with Star Trek now on
some facets, they're embracing the

past and embracing all these bit part
players who have contributed to it

in some way or were regulars and have
been disrespected, treated poorly,

uh, you know, as seen as just being
the eye candy and belittling their

Kevin: I think that's the
common thread for the two

characters we've called out here.

Harry Kim and T'Pol are going to be our
focus for the rest of this episode, and

that for me, like, you and I agreed we
would bring our favorite Harry Kim and

T'Pol episodes, and I don't mind saying
I had to watch a lot of Star Trek this

week because it is hard to find good
episodes that serve these characters.

These characters were both, in my
view, underserved and hard done by

by the series that they starred in.

Rob: I, I, yeah.

Uh, um, I, I found a
killer, uh, Harry Kim one.

I think it's the only good Harry Kim
one, and we've probably got the same one.

Um, but when it came to T'Pol, I,
I've gone with one, but it's not

even, she's not even like the,
the main focus in her own story.

Like

Kevin: I'm with you

Rob: Yeah.

So she's sort of like the B plot of
a story that should be about her.

Um, it's, it's, it's quite, uh,
yeah, it's quite, it's quite hard.

It

Kevin: It's unusual.

Uh, yeah.

So, um, I, I think they were, in
some respects, this episode we just

talked about is the best episode
for both of these characters.

Rob: I heartily agree.

If T'Pol was written like
this, um, for the entire five

seasons of, uh, Enterprise, I

Kevin: My god, she's funny.

She's the dry humor works so

Rob: Yep.

Very much so.

Her relationship with Curzon was amazing,
and Curzon going full Klingon, and her

response to that is, I love it, love it.

Kevin: Sodium is not a rich, full life.

Maybe it is for me, damn it!

Uh, yeah, so good.

All right.

So let's take these one at a time.

We'll start with Harry Kim, I think.

Um, do you want to dive deeper into some
high level thoughts about Harry Kim?

Or should we jump straight
into the episodes?

Rob: Well, I mean, we can
touch on it a little bit.

I mean, Harry Kim and connected
to that, Garrett Wang, have become

a little bit of a laughingstock
within the Star Trek world.

And he's kind of embraced that,
and he's embraced that within the

fandom, and he's now loved for it.

And he's been, in many ways, a bridging
gap between many of the tensions

within, um, Star Trek cast as well.

Like, he's been there, but, you
know, there's famous footage of,

of Jeri Ryan talking about tensions
between her and Kate Mulgrew, and

Garrett's there, like, consoling her
and being this bridge between, uh,

healing and all this type of stuff.

And he's, of course, doing a podcast,
um, about, uh, his time on Voyager,

which seems to be the big thing now.

But there's a lot of debate about,
um, you know, seven years they were

in, you know, uh, a different quadrant
and not one single promotion at all.

And it's been joked about
so many, many times.

Even within Lower Decks, a
comedy show, we've got our lead

characters being promoted within,
and it only went for five years.

Kevin: Yeah, I'll, I think it's worth
at least taking a beat to, to, to like

address that, the rank issue head on.

But to me it's, it's separate or at least
maybe just loosely related to the deeper

issue, which is just how this character
was used and written in that series.

Rob: Me personally, what I love so much
about Deep Space Nine is that every

single character in that lead photo
shoot, in that shot of all the cast,

every single character is interesting.

Even, even Sisko's son, Jake's
got some really interesting stuff.

Not as high as some of the
others, yes, but every single one.

You could go to Kira, you can go to
Dax, you can go to Bashir, and they

worked hard to add more to them.

Kevin: Yeah.

It's not that they were
interesting is that they worked

to tell interesting stories about

Rob: And they had incredibly talented
actors behind each of those roles.

So even if in the early

Kevin: What are you saying, Rob?

What are you saying

Rob: And that's what I'm
about to get to, yeah.

Even in the early days, when the
characters aren't written well, the

charisma of, uh, you know, of, um,
Alexander, of, uh, Terry Farrell,

when their characters weren't
written that well at the start, their

charisma and talent oozed along.

Poor old Garrett, he's
a lovely human being.

He wouldn't, what we would
call one of the best dynamic,

naturalistic, Uh, charismatic
actors, and Harry Kim is a very dull

character and I think they realised

Kevin: of the acting, you're saying?

Rob: I think it's a bit of, yeah,
it isn't written well and the

actor didn't have enough ability to

Kevin: Yeah, it's a back and forth, right?

Like if the actor is, is charismatic and
interesting, it makes writers want to

write stories about them and vice versa.

It goes both ways.

Rob: It's used a lot within Doctor
Who as an excuse going, Oh, we've

got such a great actor as the
Doctor, but the writing's so bad.

Um, and it's used a lot, especially
within modern Doctor Who.

Um, whereas in Star Trek, in
anything, it is a balance.

It is a dance that you do
within the writing, within

the direction, with the actor.

And the actors will be inspired by the
writing, but the writers will also be

inspired, on a regular basis on the
TV show, by what the actors bring.

And sadly, um, Garrett didn't bring
enough, and the writers didn't bring

enough, so we're left with seven seasons
with a character who never really

evolved, never really changed, and was
never really given the opportunity to.

And when they gave him little moments here
or there, it wasn't enough to springboard.

They got more interested in, ooh,
let's bring in a, uh, you know, Seven

of Nine, and that went so well, let's
bring in more Borgs and change them up.

Kevin: Okay.

Accepted all of that.

I want to talk about the
rank issue for a moment.

I've done some reading and people with
military experience who have talked

about this issue, their take, like
this, I've read some posts of like, I

served on a submarine sort of thing.

And, if your ship is away from
port for a long period of time,

your captain can't promote you.

So the fact that Voyager is lost in
the Delta Quadrant goes some of the

way to explaining why some people's
ranks would not have changed, even

if they are a senior officer on the
bridge in, in, um, Harry Kim's case.

But at least by the end of the
series, that's definitely true.

Uh, but the, the take that, uh, I found
interesting is what would normally

happen is as soon as you are in contact
with port, as soon as, Voyager made

contact with Starfleet, they would
transmit all their logs, and the brass

would decide who is owed a promotion.

And like, one of the first transmissions
from the Alpha Quadrant back to Voyager

should have been, here is the list of
promotions that, uh, you should make.

So that would have been the moment to give
Harry Kim his second or third pip, uh,

but it didn't happen, for all the reasons
that I think you just talked about.

Rob: Um, thank you for explaining
that, because it is the go to gag,

going seven years as an ensign, ha!

But then the justification is they're
going, well, they're away from port,

they have no connection, everything kind
of freezes at that time, you know, rank

wise, everyone stays kind of the same.

Kevin: Well, let's, let's
dive into an episode or two.

I'll be interested to see
if we pick the same one.

I grabbed a fairly early
one from season two.

Rob: We have not got the same one, because
I've grabbed one from season seven.

Kevin: Ooh, that's different again
from what I might've guessed.

We've talked before about.

For me, what would be truly my high point
for both the actor and the character, and

that's season five, episode six, Timeless.

This is the one where Voyager crashes
on the ice planet, and then a future

version of, uh, Harry Kim, who is
wracked by guilt about crashing the ship,

comes back to try and change history.

Um, there'll be a link to the
Subspace Radio episode where

we talked about that in detail.

Um, but, uh, that one aside, I'm picking
one here that to me plays nicely into

this idea of alternate Harrys, uh,
that we had in Lower Decks and it's

season two, episode five, Non Sequitur,

Rob: All right.

Kevin: in which Harry wakes up and finds
himself on Earth, in San Francisco.

Uh, and he is, uh, living seemingly a
charmed life with a fiancee, uh, that

he is about to marry, a swish job at
Starfleet designing a new Runabout

with some, some experimental engines.

And, uh, he just, he, he, he can't
go along with it because he feels so

guilty about the crew he left behind.

Uh, and he learns like his best
friend from the Academy actually

went in his place on Voyager.

Uh, and then later again, he learns that
Tom Paris also didn't make it onto Voyager

in this version of events and is a drunk
in Marseilles in a, in a little bar there.

Rob: Beats being a
prisoner in New Zealand.

Kevin: Yeah.

Well, yeah.

Um, yeah, what, what he learns is that,
um, that because Harry Kim was not there

on Deep Space Nine to be in the bar with
Quark, um, uh, Paris, um, got into a

bar fight and got thrown in Odo's prison
cell and missed, missed the boat to

the Delta Quadrant, uh, and got kicked

Rob: That's right.

I do remember that one.

I do remember that story.

Kevin: Yeah.

So, um, it, it is.

It is interesting a bit, I think.

Definitely, Harry Kim is in the spotlight.

He is the star of this episode.

Most of the rest of our cast are absent.

So, so Garrett Wang definitely
has to carry the episode here.

Um, it's fun to see that
character wrestle with a what if.

It's fun to get to see some parts of
his life because I feel like that is

something that really prevented the
Harry Kim character from developing is

we know so little about him other than
he had a mom and he loves the clarinet.

Um, that's pretty much
all we know about the guy.

Even in this episode, there's a
point where he like looks around his

office and he's got his diploma on
the wall and it says Harry SL Kim.

And to this day, we still don't
know what that SL stands for.

Can you think of another, um, main
cast character in Star Trek who

we know their middle initial, but
we don't know what it stands for.

Rob: Um, we don't know what
the D stands for in Odo.

Kevin: Oh, Very good.

Rob: Maybe the L stands for Liberius.

Kevin: But yes, a glimpse of what Harry
left behind or what his life would have

been if he didn't get stuck in the Delta
Quadrant is tantalizing here as well.

Um, and I feel like just the premise
and also getting to visit future San

Francisco, those two things are worth
signing up for here, but the episode is

maybe not as strong as I would like if I
were going to say best Harry Kim episodes.

Like, the writing, I feel
like, is not quite there.

A lot of the people around Harry
Kim are behaving a little weird.

Like, he is clearly suffering
some mental anguish and confusion.

And the people around him are
like, what's wrong with you?

Pull yourself together.

He gets as far as being In a
presentation at Starfleet headquarters

to an Admiral and choking in that
situation, uh, and even then he

says, I need to go to see a doctor.

And everyone kind of just
like walks out of the room.

His best friend supposedly says,
you better be dying and then leaves.

And just the, the reactions don't
quite add up as far as what people who

ostensibly care about you or even your
professional colleagues would do if you

were having what to outward appearances
would be a complete mental breakdown.

Rob: Very much late 90s
version of the future.

We're going,

Kevin: Yeah, there's some big leaps
in logic that, that are necessary

for the plot here that, uh, it
could have used another pass.

Rob: Yes, we've made many jumps
forward within the last two decades

with mental health awareness.

So that late 90s version of the future
going, Oh, that's still, that's very much

as if it's still like original series,
Those Old Scientists type era dealing

with just, you know, snap out of it.

Kevin: Yeah, there, uh, there are
a few versions of the story, the

origin story for this episode.

And I've read a couple of them
and some of them are quite

uncharitable towards the actor.

Like I think the uncharitable version
is Garrett Wang here at the start of

the second season of Voyager went to the
producers and said, are you ever going to

do anything interesting with my character,
and like kind of threw a tantrum and this

is the episode they wrote to appease him.

The kinder version of events that rings
more true to me is that at the start

of season two, the producers had a one
on one meeting with all the main actors

and said, how's it going with you?

Is there, do you have any ideas for us?

And Garrett basically said, well,
uh, I would love to do some action.

I would love to get the girl.

I would love a story that, that
expands on my character a bit.

And they said we hear you and
this was their first attempt

at responding to that feedback.

Uh, that, that feels like what
happened here, but nevertheless,

it, like, it's shaky.

It's shaky.

Yeah.

Rob: It's, it's such a, not a tragedy,
but it's such a disappointment that this

carries on for the entire seven seasons.

It's always quite, uh,
we'll, we'll, we'll try.

Oh, it doesn't really spark us.

Let's get distra and they get
distracted by other characters, easier

characters, I guess, to write, more
charismatic, Um, invested actors.

I mean, it's quite, you know,
either way, it's, it doesn't

paint a very good picture.

Like, Garrett going, uh,
action, girl, more time?

Whereas a lot of actors go in going, I
want specifically, let's focus on this.

How about this?

And then it's a collaboration thing.

Um, so yeah, it's, yeah, it's
shaky all the way through.

Dear old, uh, Harry Kim does, uh,
doesn't do himself any favors from

an actor or character point of view.

Kevin: He was much, much stronger in
Timeless in season five, as I mentioned,

the other one that came to mind was
season three, episode three, The Chute

where he and Paris are stuck in a
prison together with implants in their

heads, driving them slowly insane.

And like they, they come to blows and
I get choked up at the end of that

episode as the two of them kind of like,
uh, Paris feels indebted to Harry for

his, for his life, uh, whereas, uh,
Harry is racked by guilt for almost

killing his, his friend, Tom Paris.

And like that, that moment and the
acting that leads up to it does

work for me, which I think is a
testament to the performance there,

but it is more of a two hander than
a Harry focused episode for me.

Rob: Yeah, and I mean, that's
what he pretty much became.

He, and we'll talk about that
a little bit in my episode, he

is the sidekick to Tom Paris.

And, um, they said like, where
can we put him at the start?

He's paired, it never really
is a partnership, it is a,

sidekick lead type of feel.

I've always felt that.

And I can see the bond between the
two actors because they're both doing

this podcast together about their
time on Voyager, which is amazing.

I love seeing that.

Whether that, you know, chemistry
that they have off screen is shown

on screen isn't as, I think their
chemistry off screen is stronger than

what we really get on, on screen.

But, um, yeah, it's a, like, a
disservice to Kim that he was seen

more as the sidekick to Paris as
opposed to an equal partnership.

Kevin: Well, let's talk about yours.

Rob: Uh, we're going Season
7, Episode 8, Nightingale,

Kevin: Right near the end.

Oh, yes.

Nightingale.

Very

Rob: directed by the great LeVar Burton.

So, um, so the main thrust of it is,
uh, Kim's in the Delta Flyer with

Seven and Neelix, uh, as Voyager is,
um, stranded on a planet, really, just

getting some much needed repairs, uh,
Torres has been complaining for ages

that we need to stop and fix everything
and it's only meant to be a couple of

days and it's going to be much longer
because Torres wants everything fixed.

Kim, Seven and, uh, um, uh, Neelix
are looking uh, near a nebula for

certain materials that they can siphon
and then they get caught up in a, a

skirmish between some battleships, uh,
attacking a defenseless ship that's

like got a faulty, uh, clone device.

Um.

And basically Kim sides with one and
representatives from the other culture,

sort of like, do a connection with Janeway
and Voyager on the, on the, on the planet.

Hence, uh, prime directives and all
that type of stuff is messed up, um,

and, but Kim stands strong going, no,
I've made, uh, a connection to this,

this is humanitarian mission, they're
not, the only people surviving on this

ship aren't, um, pilots or officers,
these are all civilians, it's a

humanitarian mission to get them home.

Um, and so, he, he wants this, he wants
this as his, uh, real first command.

And even after seven years, which he
says, I've been in the ensign seven years

and she goes, Oh, you're, Oh, you're
bucking for in a promotion, are you?

Goes that's ambitious of you.

And you go, it's been seven
years, woman, come on.

Um, and so, yes, as the story
develops, um, the truth comes out,

Kim, uh, takes on, and is given the
role of captain aboard the ship.

He names the ship Nightingale, after
Florence Nightingale, obviously, and

starts to train up and teach, and then,
with Seven's observation, who's sent

to observe him and keep an eye on him
and support him, that he's more of a

doer than a shower, and, or getting
them to do, look after themselves.

Um, and then there's some deceit in
the ranks and Kim finds out that,

uh, it's not a humanitarian mission.

They're trying to save the cloaking
device that was created by one of the

people on the ship and they need to get
it back because they've been oppressed

by the other culture for three years.

So, it's Kim dealing with loss,
sacrifice, um, how he, what it is

meant to be as a captain of a ship and
getting, uh, stone cold truth from,

uh, Neelix and also, uh, Seven of
Nine about what it is to be a leader.

Kevin: It's interesting, isn't it,
that both, uh, unless I'm mistaken,

neither Neelix nor Seven of Nine
have a rank, and so, technically,

Ensign Kim outranks both of

Rob: Yes, he does.

Yeah, and that's what that's why
Seven of Nine goes on the mission.

Kevin: Yeah, although Seven, you might
say, uh, seems a more forceful presence

in any room than poor Harry Kim.

Um, if you were to kind of pick em out of
the lineup, she'd be the natural captain,

as we have seen in Star Trek Picard.

Um, but, uh, but yeah, it must
be an interesting dynamic with

him giving the orders here.

Rob: Yeah, so there's a B plot here
as well about Um, uh, one of the, uh,

Borg youth, Icheb, uh, oh, poor Icheb.

Kevin: Poor

Rob: Poor Icheb.

Um, Reading the signals wrong, thinking
B'Elanna's got the hots for him,

and that Paris wants to challenge
him to a physical confrontation.

It doesn't really go anywhere, it
doesn't really do anything, ultimately.

Um, the main story is, uh,
Harry Kim getting, uh, You know,

working for towards his command.

Kevin: So, I have not seen
this episode in years.

I don't remember it well.

I want to ask, to what extent is
Harry's inexperience a plot point here?

Like, is it, is it that he takes
command and he's ready for it and

we get to see Harry in command?

Or is it that he thinks he's ready,
but he isn't and that lesson is

what he learns in this episode?

Rob: Yes, I mean, he does
well and he inspires.

Um, there's one of the only surviving
officers, he teaches him about Federation

and about, you know, their way of
doing things and teaches him how to,

you know, pilot the ship and all this
type of stuff and all those skills.

However, he has not enough experience
to trust the people of the ship

to take care of themselves.

And you can see the frustration of the
crew going, well, he's doing everything.

Kevin: Gotta learn to delegate.

Gotta learn to delegate.

Yeah.

That's, that's.

Lifting the veil for a moment, Rob.

That's my leadership journey
at the moment, is to learn how

to be a little more hands off.

Rob: I've had to learn
that many, many times.

Uh, sometimes, you know,
take the pressure off me.

Uh, and also, um, give more responsibility
to people who are more than willing to

just go, Oh, no, Rob will do everything.

Kevin: Mm.

Rob: Yeah, it's, it's, it actually
is a good episode for Kim, for

Harry Kim, to realize his faults
and how he learns from that.

There's a, there's a loss on the
ship when they're attacked one time

and one of the, the, uh, native
crew members is, is killed due

Kevin: Oh, wow.

First,

Rob: due to the, Yeah, due to one of the,
um, not being told the whole truth about

why, you know, they just thought it was a
humanitarian mission and then one of the

scientists, um, played by the brilliant
Ron Glass from, uh, Firefly, Serenity,

and back in the day, Barney Miller, he
was in Barney Miller, great actor, sadly

passed away a couple of years ago, um, um,

So he learns about, you know, Seven is,
is hurt within that situation, and then

they kind of taken away their power
and responsibility, but he steps up

and goes, no, I need to learn from this
and, and make this mission successful.

He does a really clever way to
maneuver out of the situation to

save the rest of the crew and to
save the cloaking device or the ship.

Um, and he realizes he's not
ready yet, but he's, he's, uh,

excited about moving forward.

So that's that's how
it ends with him going.

I'm not ready to be captain
yet, but I will one day.

Kevin: Yeah, I got a
taste and I still want it.

Rob: Yeah.

And so that's actually, you know,
he's he's not that annoying.

And you know, it's and his

Kevin: Does the performance, like, you
know, this is, this is season seven.

It's probably as good as it ever got.

Like,

Rob: Yeah, he's very, he's
very comfortable on set.

He knows how to move as an actor from
an acting point of view, watching.

He knows how to find his
light to use a theater term.

He knows how to hit the tone right for
the screen performance that he's doing.

He's just doesn't have that extra oomph.

There's some really
awkward moments like this.

It's really awkward moments when
he finally sees, uh, Tom Paris

and Paris is going, Hey, you're
going on this mission without me.

Well, I can't take anyone higher than me.

And you're like, there's
a woman, isn't it?

It's a woman.

There's a woman on there that you
don't want me to, you know, know about.

And it's so forced the two of them.

And he does that whole thing.

It's like for years, you know,
you play Captain Proton and I play

Bucky or whatever the sidekick is.

I want to play

Kevin: Yeah.

So they're self aware.

There's some credit to be given
there, but it's still, it's still the

Rob: Yeah, it's, it's, for me, I was
surprised how much I liked it, but

I could still see the cogs working
in, uh, um, Garrett Wang's mind.

Kevin: Just to reiterate, I feel
like it really is twofold, the

failure of this character here.

Like my favorite characters, not just in
Star Trek, but in anything, are where you

can see the actor, uh, saying and behaving
one way, but thinking something else.

Like there's a second layer there.

You can, you can see their inner
world as well as their outer world.

And, uh, I struggle to find occasions
where I can, I saw Harry's inner world

as distinct from his outer world,
but it's because the character was

never written deeply enough to give
the actor an inner world to play.

Rob: Exactly.

Exactly right.

It's, yeah, it's, yeah.

Um.

It's a frustrating thing to see.

All of it was flooding back while
I was watching it going, oh, that's

why I got so frustrated watching
Voyager back to back when I first

did all seven seasons back to back.

I enjoyed it, especially because
the mistakes he made are mistakes

that any of us would make in that
situation, and him learning from

that, uh, was, was quite exciting,
but still, still quite surface level.

Kevin: Well, yes, I think he
went out on a high here in Lower

Decks with the line Nice try!

I'm Harry effing Kim and you
don't get to order me around!

Boom.

Rob: A very, very good way to sign off
on a running gag within Lower Decks

and within the fandom for a long time.

Kevin: Yeah, let's talk about T'Pol.

Rob: Yeah, this one was tricky going
into the world, we have delved into

the world of Enterprise before.

Um, and as you said, you found it
quite a struggle to find something

T'Pol focused that is all about
T'Pol and is actually good for

Kevin: I, I can't blame the actor I get
the impression just cuz she was cast as

the ingenue and at the time where I was
watch, watching this first run, I did not

hear "Jolene Blalock famous from X", it
was, "and introducing Jolene Blalock,"

and so the impression I got is she came in
relatively inexperienced, but either the

training or the raw talent was definitely
there because she has a presence on

screen, she has gravitas, and so the,
the character really worked for me.

I, compared to what we were just
saying about Harry Kim, I bought that

this character has an inner life at
all times, and it, it, it was rich.

Unfortunately, I think the plots
did not serve this character.

Um, also the fact that the character
came in as a high status, grumpy

Vulcan, left them very little to go.

She, she, they had to kind of backfill
vulnerability into this character in

order to give her something to work with.

And unfortunately, the forms of
vulnerability that they came up with

were very stereotypical, um, you
know, sex object 1990s television, of

they were all will she won't she with
Archer will she won't she with Tucker.

Um, she, she had the, the plot line
around the forced, uh, mind meld

that caused her to have emotions.

And that was at least interesting in,
in, as a, as a depth for the character.

But, um, but yeah, it, it rarely felt
like, uh, T'Pol was in the spotlight

and even when she was, the stories
seemed very much about what the

men around her were doing about her
vulnerability than giving her agency.

Rob: Yeah, I mean, I haven't
gone through all Enterprise.

The most I've seen of
Enterprises through this podcast.

Um, and so, but yeah, it's been a
sad side of the episodes I've seen

of going, yeah, there's so much
potential not really explored.

The episode I have chosen, there's,
you know, moments of it, but that's

the thing, whether it's a seven
season run or a five season run cut

short or a four season run cut short,

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: It's so disappointing if you've
only got four seasons, but there's

only moments of potential, you know

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: wrong.

Kevin: I think at the, when this
character's was working at her best,

um, what I might compare her to
is the Dana Scully in the X Files.

She often operated as the skeptic.

She would be the one who says the
Vulcan Science Academy is determined

that the time travel is impossible.

And so that thing of our human characters
witness something, and then T'Pol

goes, um, I think you imagined it.

Like that dynamic, at least, was fun
in the same way that Dana Scully is fun

because she never sees what Fox Mulder
sees and always asks for the evidence.

Um, so, so that worked, but, uh, yeah,
I, I picked a, I've got a couple of

episodes here because I anticipate that
we may have landed on the same one.

Um, so.

I might, I might start with the
strongest one for me that I could find

this week, which is season two, episode
14, Stigma, which is a bit of a sequel

to season one, episode 17, Fusion.

I mentioned this storyline before.

In Fusion, she encounters a ship full of
Vulcans who are practicing the, um, this,

the stigmatized practice of mind melds.

At this point in the Star Trek timeline,
mind melds are taboo in Vulcan culture,

but there is a undesirable subclass
that, uh, that experiments with them.

And there is a effectively sexually
transmitted disease that comes out

of that called Pa'nar syndrome.

And so it's a very unsubtle allegory
for the HIV AIDS epidemic and

how the sufferers of that were
stigmatized because of their presumed

association with homosexual culture.

Um, so here in Stigma, the second episode
of this kind of, um, two parter at a

distance, um, the treatments that Phlox is
devising for her to control the symptoms

of Pa'nar Syndrome that have resulted from
the forced mind meld that she underwent

in the previous episode, those treatments
have, are losing their effectiveness

and, uh, Phlox wants to ask some Vulcan
doctors at the, at the conference

they're attending for the latest
research on Pa'nar Syndrome from Vulcan.

And, T'Pol is very reluctant to go
along with this because she's like, I

don't want anyone to know I have this.

It's very stigmatized.

Um, I'll, I'll lose my
position, um, on Enterprise.

But Phlox says, don't worry,
I can keep it a secret.

I will say that I'm asking for
research because we have a very

similar malady in Denobulan culture.

And I have a friend back home,
who could really use anything

the Vulcans know about this.

Um, he does his best, but the Vulcans
see right through his request.

And, uh, they, uh, they manage to discover
that T'Pol is suffering from this.

And the rest of this episode plays
out almost like a courtroom drama

where T'Pol is persecuted for
the, the illness that she has.

Um, and she is.

told effectively that if you
claim that you were forced,

then all of this goes away.

But she does not want to claim that
she was forced, because that is, uh,

basically condoning the prejudice
against, uh, these people who, who just

uh, love or communicate in a different
way than, uh, what is commonly accepted

in Vulcan culture at a, at the time.

There, there are several scenes where
there are two or three men around

T'Pol saying, just say you were forced.

And she says, no.

And there is, you know, just in that
one decision is that agency that I

am so often lacking from T'Pol and
she feels so strong in that moment.

It is, um, yeah, it's a beautiful
thing for the character and

for the actor to get to play.

Um, so yeah, I do love it, but it
is, I mean, it is conspicuous for

how rarely this which is the shame.

Rob: Yeah.

I mean, and that's what
we love about sci fi.

We love hitting heavy, relevant, you
know, contemporary issues, um, in,

under the guise of, uh, of science
fiction and, and fantastical situations.

The Twilight Zone, you know,
pioneered that back in the late

fifties, early sixties, obviously.

Um, but yeah, to, to see that played
out in, in the Star Trek world, so

far in the past of what we know, is a
fascinating concept to go, this thing that

is commonplace, it was actually shunned
and outlawed, and to, Connect that with

a metaphor of something as tragic and,
um, you know, horrifying and still in

recent memory of the, the AIDS crisis of
the 80s is, um, you know, powerful stuff.

And it's a shame that that, you know,
again, it's the enterprise folly,

folly of going, there's a moment,
there's this moment of potential, it

could be, oh, okay, it's dropping.

Oh, we dropped

Kevin: But yeah, very, very good
episode treating like using that Star

Trek allegory mechanism to talk about
a real social issue at the time.

So, and, and the episode works,
the performances are really good.

It is compelling from beginning to end.

It's tense.

The tension in this episode really
just is like T'Pol's secret.

Will it, will it get out?

Will her privacy be invaded?

And that, that character driven
tension really works here.

Um, so yeah, I, I think it's
a, it's a great two parter,

the Fusion followed by Stigma.

Rob: Over two seasons, so from season
one and then into season two, not back to

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Well, I jumped ahead
to, uh, season four, episode

three, um, so it's Home, so I

Kevin: Ah, yes, I did watch Home this

Rob: Yeah, so I thought that
this would be a good one.

I was wrong.

So for me, having not watched any of
season three, I'm aware of the season

three arc, and that all focuses on
the, the, the Xindi, it's all about

the Xindi coming in, and they're a
threat to the Federation, and all this

type of stuff of, you know, before
the Federation of the Federation.

Um, so this kicks in, episode three starts
off with them, the valiant crew of the

Enterprise coming in and they've saved
the Earth, uh, and all that type of stuff.

And so I'm missing a whole
season worth of arcs and there's

all this trauma and issues and

Kevin: Yeah, it's very much like, uh, the
TNG episode Family after, after the trauma

of best of both worlds where Picard is
assimilated and he returns home to his

family vineyard and tries to reconcile
with his brother, but he is so damaged.

And like, grappling with that
damage, admitting it to themself

and starting to move past it
is the purpose of that episode.

And that's, especially for
Archer, what's going on here.

But there's this whole parallel story
with Trip and T'Pol going to Vulcan.

Rob: Yeah, so it's sort of like
there's three stories happening.

So there's Archer dealing with the
trauma of what he's gone through,

uh, and going rock climbing.

Um, you've got, uh, the
xenophobia developing within,

uh, Earth culture at the moment.

So if you are an alien, you are,
you know, you need to leave.

And so, like, the Vulcan's embassy is
closed off and they're not leaving.

Um, so Phlox is out at the bar, uh,
drinking with a couple of, you know, with

a couple of the Enterprise crew and the
humans, yeah, and they don't, not happy

at all, um, and gets into a fight, and
we get the whole Phlox blowfish effect.

Um, but yeah, so then the story called
home is relating to, you know, many

different characters, but T'Pol goes
back to Vulcan to spend time with her

mum, and bring Trip along as well.

Um, and there are moments, I do see
moments of, especially the scenes

with T'Pol, with the brilliant, the
great Joanna Cassidy, who I've already

talked about before in a previous
episode, when we talked about previous

episodes of Enterprise that she was in.

Great.

She does a great job.

And she brings a really good presence.

Kevin: The scenes between her and Trip
Tucker actually work really well for me in

this episode with Trip and they're talking
about T'Pol and, um, seeing her be a

mother apart from the tension that exists
between her and her daughter when they're

face to face is, is really kind of sweet.

Rob: I do think she brings, uh,
a bit out of, uh, T'Pol as well.

Her performance does improve slightly
working with someone who's such a good

actor and such a giving actor as well.

Um, but again, she's sidelined in this,
you know, it's all about other people

talking about her, and then the, you know,
the would be fiancé comes in as well.

Um, so it's kind of, uh, I bummed out.

I thought I'd pick one
that would be good for her.

Going home.

Oh, great.

Family tension and stuff.

I go, oh, it's all about
everybody else except T'Pol.

Kevin: Yeah, there's more
T'Pol stuff in season four.

I mean, there's the whole, there's The
Forge trilogy where she gets involved

with the, the, uh, descendants of,
or the followers of Surak and her

mom actually dies in that plot line.

Rob: That's, yeah, we did,
we did review that one.

I have, did that one where, where
Cassidy's character's killed off.

Kevin: So there's definitely more to
come, but yeah, the, the tragic ending of

this of her, like, the, the cut, the cut
to credits is especially brutal here at

the end when it's like, so is she going
to go through with this sham marriage?

Yes, she is.

The end.

It's like, whoa, they're
going to leave us on a low.

That Star Trek rarely has
the confidence to do that.

And, um, I mean, if nothing
else, I have to get, give them

credit for the swing there.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, um, uh, unlike the episodes you
have, uh, focused on, yeah, there's

not much here for T'Pol to do.

And she really is, uh, hamstrung as
a, uh, character and as an actor.

Kevin: Yeah, she, she is at turns,
um, protesting and then passively

going along with events here and she
never quite has the agency that, that

I think the story leads us to crave
and then for effect does not give us.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: It withholds it.

But the thing is, I don't, maybe I'm
wrong and if I rewatched it, it would

be there in that Vulcan trilogy, but
from my memory at least is even past

the low end of this episode, she never
quite comes back and reclaims that.

Her, her husband Koss eventually
does, um, give her her freedom.

But it's mostly just because he, he
sees that she, her life has nothing

to do with him and he's given one
opportunity to help her and, uh,

and it is effectively to let her go.

And so as a nice guy, he does it.

Um, but it, it, never quite feels
like T'Pol kind of claiming her agency

and making a decision for herself.

Rob: And it does seem to be a
constant thing within the show when

she ever, you know, does have those
moments of inspirational potential

of agency taken away snuffed out
pretty quickly, which is a shame.

So

Kevin: Related, the other one I
thought you might have brought was

season three, episode eight, Twilight.

That is during the Xindi arc and
they're exploring the Expanse there.

Um, and, uh, this is a beautiful
kind of break from that.

In it, the the ship is, uh, encounters
like a subspace anomaly that infects

puts like, um, subspace microbes
in Archer's brain and prevents

him from forming new memories.

And then we get to jump into
Archer's future as he can no longer

be captain of the Enterprise.

The Xindi mission fails
and Earth is destroyed.

And then he wakes up one morning and
he is living on Ceti Alpha V, which

is Khan's planet, um, with T'Pol in
his kitchen, and he has gray hair

and T'Pol is basically his full time
carer, and every morning he wakes up

and she has to explain to him what has
happened over the past 12 years of his

Rob: It's Star Trek
version of 50 First Dates.

Kevin: That's right.

Uh, and it is, it is sweet.

It is, um, it is an interesting turn
for T'Pol, but it's also kind of tragic

that uh, like, this thing that happens
to Archer basically ends T'Pol's career

and future because she gives it all
up to be his carer, um, is, is both

sweet and tragic and, um, interesting.

But once again, this
episode is not about T'Pol.

T'Pol has an interesting place in it, has
a couple of nice speeches, but, um, but

ultimately is not her story to act in,

Rob: yeah

Kevin: which is, which is
the forever story with T'Pol.

So, uh, it was lovely to see her as
first officer of the, Anaximander

here in, uh, in Fissure Quest.

And um, here's to more T'Pol
episodes, if she's willing

Rob: She was stellar.

Yeah, bring her back.

You can, yeah, just be your
first letter if you want to

be credited as just J. Do it.

Kevin: Hm-hm-hm-hm…

Rob: to see more of you.

Um, so yeah, bit of a, bit of a downbeat
ending, with a downbeat ending of an

episode where we, the potential of, uh,
T'Pol was never really realized, so thank

you Lower Decks for giving us a little
taste of that for at least 22 minutes.

Kevin: Yes, well, we'll make it up next
week with the grand finale of Lower Decks.

Rob: want to say goodbye!

Don't want to

Kevin: We've got some
fun stuff to talk about.

Rob: Very much so.

Looking forward to it.

Even though I don't want to say
goodbye, I am looking forward

to talking about that episode.