Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello and welcome back weary
travelers, excited listeners, on our

adventure in the subspace with Subspace
Radio, a new Star Trek episode is

out there, we need to talk about It

Kevin: Dun daaa!

The strings swell.

It's time for a grand finale, Rob.

Rob: grand grand finale, joining me
as always is Kevin Yank, how are you?

Kevin: I am wonderful.

I love it when, uh, when there is new
Star Trek that sticks the landing.

Rob: Oh.

My.

God.

Did.

It.

What.

Yes.

The final episode, uh, the 50th
episode, the 10th episode of Season

5 of Star Trek Lower Decks, The
New Next Generation, written by

Kevin: 50 episodes.

Can we just, can we just take a moment
to recognize what has been achieved here?

The original series of Star Trek had
89 episodes, if, if I'm remembering

Rob: Yep.

Kevin: That's, that's, you know,
almost twice as many, and each of

those episodes was twice as long
as these Lower Decks episodes.

And yet, look how sad I
am to see this series go.

Very, very sad, Rob.

Rob: We would barely be hitting the
second season of, uh, a show from the

original series or from, uh, the 90s era.

But no, we have gone through five seasons,
uh, ups and downs, trials and tribulations

of, uh, the crew of the Cerritos.

And now, sadly, we have to say
goodbye with one final threat.

And nobody else can deal with it,
despite how many times they say,

Surely you can't get the Enterprise.

Surely the Enterprise, should
the Enterprise be doing this?

The Enterprise should be doing this.

This is an Enterprise mission, right?

Kevin: They were so
close that they had some.

Yeah, I will say that that it was
the weakest moment of this very

strong episode to me, which is
to say it wasn't even that weak.

There was a line that I really
bought and then they wrecked it

with some other lines that I didn't.

The line that I really bought is that the
Enterprise was too far away and call it

fate, call it entanglement or whatever,
um, It's up to the Cerritos to do this.

And I was like, great.

Okay.

So that, you know, the, the anomaly
that's threatening everyone just happens

to be super close to the Cerritos.

So they're going to be first on the
scene and that is oddly convenient, for

plot purposes, but we're going to name
it and go, wow, isn't the universe a

mysterious place, how these, these things
happen so close to the people involved.

Um, so lovely.

You should have left it there.

But they went a few more steps
where they were, they were like.

It's really weird.

We can't explain it.

Um, uh, the Enterprise is definitely
on its way, but, but the two Boimler

effect, it cannot be overlooked.

And I was like, that does not make sense.

The, the line, the last line
was with the connected Boimlers,

you're our only option.

And I was like, I don't even know what
you're talking about at this point.

Rob: I like what they're going for.

It was sent from one Boimler to the
next Boimler, and the Boimlers had

to connect, but it wasn't justified
enough in any other effect and a hand

waving wave going, oh, it has to be
you guys because, uh, Boiler Effect.

Let's use that.

Kevin: They should have
quit while they were ahead.

The fact that when they said it's
weird, I was like, great, it's weird.

You agree.

It's weird.

We can all move on.

But then they tried to, they tried
to explain it a little too much.

Rob: So yeah, we have
everything happening here.

We have Boimler coming to terms with
the fact that he's been trying to

live his life via another Boimler.

We've got Rutherford falling
out of love with the Cerritos.

We've got, uh, we've got our two science
officers, you know, trying to find, uh,

you know, are they science best friends?

Are they science besties?

Or are they rivals?

Kevin: Yeah.

Now that they have the shared role,
can they actually collaborate?

Rob: Tendi and T'Lyn are finally, you
know, uh, challenging each other on

that in their own inimitable fashion.

And, um, Uh, Mariner's still trying
to confirm the fact of the demons from

her past, but can she be trusted now?

And her realizing the fact
that her mum trusts her.

The amount of time she kept
on going, it wasn't me, mum.

It's not me.

I would have done that before.

And she goes, I know, I trust you.

It's not you.

Let's figure this out together.

Um, and just how capable they
all are as a, uh, a crew on every

level from, um, from engineering
all the way up to the upper decks.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, and you, you said this is a
packed episode and it really is.

As soon as like, okay, we have
the, we have the galaxy or universe

ending threat of the, the Schrodinger
possibility field surrounding the,

the fissure, that for me was plenty.

That plus the character stuff that had
to go on in this episode was plenty.

And then we threw the
Klingons into the mix.

Rob: Again with the

Kevin: had a previously unseen
sister to the two Klingons that

that died earlier this season.

The two antagonists that went
up against Ma'ah and Malor,

the brothers that we know.

Um, yes, a Klingon with a, with a crazy
dog on her lap, which was amazing.

Um, yeah, her and her little fleet
of ships were the wild card thrown

into this episode and there's this
log entry where Freeman goes, we're

supposed to be closing a fissure!

And I was like, you're supposed
to be closing a fissure!

we don't have time for a whole
other plot line in this episode.

But that sense that there was too much
to do really kept this, the energy up

and the tension up in what otherwise,
I feel, could have been a little bit,

uh, self indulgent as a, as a finale.

Rob: And it did give a resolution
to a storyline that we didn't

realize that we needed to see an
end for, the, the Klingon brothers.

They were such a, a crucial part
of being brought back, you know.

Well, you know, the one character
has been brought back three times and

his brother's been brought back two.

Kevin: Yeah I thought they were
perfectly happy hauling blood

wine on their little freighter.

But by the end, they've got a
little fleet of their own of, of,

uh, top of the line, Birds of Prey.

He got his captaincy back.

Rob: Exactly.

Um, but yeah, for me it was great.

Little moments of recognition.

So when the, uh, the multiverse beam
hits one of the Klingon ships, they

automatically turn into Discovery Era
Klingons and their ship turns into a

Discovery Era Klingon ship before it
is spectacularly smashed and destroyed.

Kevin: Yes.

And, uh, later on, uh, a barge of
the dead from Star Trek Voyager.

Rob: Yes!

That's right.

Um

Kevin: And throughout all of this,
the comedy is firing on all cylinders.

And to me, they took it up a
notch and made it extra knowing.

Like there were, there were lines like,
uh, Oh, who knows what's going to happen?

Tune in.

Whoa.

And really felt like the actors
talking to us through the characters

here at the end of the episode.

Um, the joke at the
start of the corbopples.

No, you made that thing up.

What are you talking about?

Half of all bopples are corbed.

That, that, that stuff also felt,
especially knowing like, uh, they,

they earned that here, but, um, I'm
glad they kept it to the very end

because it is also just, um, a little
disruptive as comedy because it kind

of undermines the reality of the world.

Rob: Um, one of my favorite lines in the
whole thing, and it isn't even that clever

or, or interesting or referencing or sort
of like, you know, It transcends anything.

It's just, I just loved it as a line.

And it's by the captain.

I know the captain gave me one of
my favorite lines about Meemaw, uh,

back a couple of seasons ago, but
just when they're about to go in the

grand finale through the, the layers,
she goes, all hands brace for weird.

Love it.

Just it.

So.

We've heard it so many times,
all hands braced for impact or

whatever, all hands braced for

Kevin: Brace for weird.

Oh, the yeah, they were teetering right on
the edge, and again, I'll say like going

over the line, knowing what they were
doing and winking at us the whole time.

This this idea that they were able
to modify the shields just enough to

protect the crew of the ship, but the
hull would be changing around them.

It's like, no, in no other episode of Star
Trek, at no other time would I buy that.

here in the finale of Lower Decks,
where the point is to have fun with

Star Trek, uh, by stretching it into
directions that you normally couldn't get

it away with, um, I went along with it.

Rob: To see all those different
versions of the Cerritos.

To see how Shaxs reacts to it when
it gets in like a Terran class.

He goes, look at all those guns!

He goes

Kevin: Our weapons are amazing!

Ohhh, weapons are down.

Rob: Um, yeah.

Kevin: It gets turned Sovereign class.

And, um, yeah, our captain has
previously, uh, stated that she hates

it when a ship goes in for refit and
comes out looking all Sovereign class.

And so when they go Sovereign class,
she goes, I guess I'll have to take

Rob: And we had a, yeah, it looked
a little bit, uh, Enterprise

D at some point as well.

And they do race away going, what
if we just turn it into, like, uh,

you know, uh, a longboat version of
a trapped in space, go, uh, we hope

for the best that we don't get that.

Kevin: Yeah.

And, uh, we get to see Rutherford fall
back in love with the Cerritos and

realize that it's his implant that's
been holding him back the whole time.

Um, the line, Whoa, I've never
seen anyone engineer that fast.

Rob: And it goes, Ru-ther-ford!

Ru-ther-ford!

Kevin: Uh, the only thing I'm, I
might regret from this episode is that

Tendi doesn't have a whole lot to do.

Rob: Nah, little bits with, with T'Lyn
and they're very manga inspired, pressing

Kevin: Yeah, I suppose so.

The, there, yeah, that, this, the
arguing in the corridor and Tendi's

the one saying, this is our chance.

We have to figure out
how to work together.

And T'Lyn goes, perhaps we should not.

Uh, but yes,

Rob: And then at the end the ships
split and then they do the split

screen so it's very manga esque
like Voltron or something like

Kevin: At that moment, I I think.

I think the reason I'm so willing
to go along with so much of the

nonsense is that it all serves
what's going on with our characters.

It's not arbitrary.

It's there as a reflection of what
our characters are going through in

their selves and their relationships.

And so, it is justified because of what we
get to see from our characters through it.

Rob: Yeah, it's the end of an arc
done with a little bit of style.

Um, and there's still a lot of, there's
definitely storylines coming to an end

but then beginning the next chapter.

So there's that element of Tendi, because
we talked about a little bit before that,

um, previously in the season, we don't
get to see that, that romance blossom,

but we definitely see what could happen
next, because Rutherford does not, is not

held back by his, uh, emotion inhibitors.

So he is feeling feelings when
he gets touched and hugged by

Kevin: He's blushing, T'Lyn names
it, and he does not deny it.

And you can see Tendi go, Oh, oh, uh,

Rob: Yeah, um, and that goes to
the potential of got, you know,

oh, that wanted Season 5, that
wanted Season 5, 6, 7, or 8.

Kevin: The creators have been pretty
clear: they had more in the tank.

And if and when the money is there,
the, the, the business case for

more Lower Decks is there, they
will be there for it as well.

So, uh, yeah, I can't wait to see
what, if anything, comes of, uh, Of

this, uh, this seed that was planted
here in, at the end of this series.

Rob: Definitely, stuff with, you know,
Boimler and Mariner, having, you know,

Boimler making the radical step, which
I was so on my feet applauding, he

snaps the, the PADD from the previous,
from the previous universe, and just

goes, you know, I've got to live my
own life, and I don't want to ruin it

with, uh, you know, our friendship.

Um, and then that tantalizing thing
of, they've, at that perfect point

with their friendship, And now
they're going to compete against each

other in the, the new regime on the

Kevin: Yeah, I have to admit, I'm a little
tired of Star Trek shows messing up the

chain of command as a twist on a season.

Um, yeah, I did not like it when,
uh, Jack Crusher was made like

special advisor to the captain
and given a chair on the bridge.

And I did not like it when
the Cerritos was giving, given

two competing first officers.

They did, they did their best with it.

They said they were provisional and
maybe like, it's a, it's a, it's a

trial run to find out which one will
actually get to be the first officer.

So at least it's temporary.

Rob: Did they set a precedent
or is it being lazy?

Because they did it with the
science officers and now they're

doing it with the first officers.

Um, and yeah, when it comes to Jack,
you know, uh, Jack Crusher, look.

You can do more than just
a three shot, people.

Okay?

You can put him at another station.

Anyway, that's it.

Um, but I adored this episode.

I absolutely loved it.

I thought it was incredibly,
uh, strong, powerful, you know.

Are you paying attention, Discovery?

That's how, that's how you end a show.

Kevin: I am once bitten twice shy
about, um, conspicuous portals at the

ends of series like the, the portal
that the Borg are guarding at the

end of Star Trek Picard season two

Rob: let Picard Season 2 drag you down.

No!

Kevin: I, Uh, everyone looks at
that portal and goes, well, that

was indecision and, and we're
never going back there, are we?

Um, so this portal I am, I
am therefore skeptical about.

There's also the whole multiverse
thing of, of, can it be done well?

Like much as I talked about it last
episode, that, that the speech from

Lily Sloan made me want to buy into the
possibilities of a multiverse concept,

especially in animation, I don't know.

It's a of a risky premise to set up here
and to kind of say, well, we want to do

more with this, this, these characters
and this story that we've set up.

But if we do do more, it has
to be this very risky thing.

That scares me.

Rob: Look, it's, it showed with me,
Star Trek is at that point in modern,

uh, in the modern era, kinda like
Star Wars, where they're doing so

much, they're producing so much, and
not all at the same high standard.

And it's showing in Star
Trek as it is in Star Wars.

If you fail in a previous show, that
affects the stuff that is really good.

So, last year in Star Wars, we had
a series called The Acolyte, which I

thought was incredibly poorly written,
an incredibly badly put together show,

bad acting, bad production design, all
that type of stuff, and it rated poorly.

At the end of last year, they released
a show called Skeleton Crew, which is

a gorgeous homage to, say, Goonies,
The Explorers, all those type of

Amblin entertainment, 80s, uh,
kids riding bikes, Stranger Things

type feel, and it is incredible.

Beautifully written, beautifully
acted, consistent across the board.

However, because people have
been burnt by the previous

Kevin: It's not getting
the audience it should.

Rob: not getting the audience they should.

And you've explained it here.

A really good explanation of how to
justify, we can't close the rift so let's

harness it and make it a portal, because
they failed miserably with lazy writing

in Star Trek, in Picard Season 2, it does
affect how we look upon it, uh, here.

Um, for me as a Deep Space Nine
fan, I'm going, eh, it's just the

wormhole, and Starbase 80 is Terok Nor.

Kevin: Yeah,

Rob: So there's potential there.

And as another Star Trek reference,
the portal, how it looked all

healed and permanently open, looked
very much like the world within

worlds symbolism in Star Wars.

There's a whole other universe that
was introduced in Rebels and is brought

in with Ahsoka, where there's this
plane of existence where you can go

to any point in time and history.

And so that's quite a contentious
issue within Star Wars and it's now

could be quite a contentious issue
here in Star Trek this similar portal

to worlds within worlds everywhere.

Kevin: Something that you mentioned
there, uh, reminded me we probably

need to do a technobabble check here.

Because I remember in the finale
of Discovery, us talking about

the technobabble that justified
some of the stuff that was

going on did not quite land.

And we talked about it again in
Prodigy, the, the wormholes adding

up to the missing wormhole was like,
like shaky on edge of, of incredulity.

There was a lot of, uh, Treknobabble
here in these last two episodes about,

you know, the soap bubbles between
realities and how opening one fissure

causes another fissure to open.

And at the end here, how turning
the energy into a dam or putting

up a dam in order to channel
the energy creates a permanent

river in the form of this portal.

Like, how did that all work for you?

Were you going along with it
or were you gritting your teeth

Rob: had to, yeah, watching it for the
second time, I'm there going, okay, this

is important because it's the Klingon
brother solving the issue from what he

knows farming, so I need to understand
this because this is a big point.

And so, you know, as always, you
know, get a character, say it with

as much conviction as possible,
and maybe you'll get away with it.

So, I liked the idea.

It was beyond the point of being sealed.

So what can you do to, to keep
it sustained with, um, but

not being able to close it.

So I like that switch, that's a
really, it's either, it's not A or

B, you find C, and that's what I love
about sci fi working really well,

going, there's only one or the other,
no there isn't, there's a C option.

Kevin: I like that too.

I, I, I found it harder to buy into
the idea that based on that, um, what

actually happens is Mariner jumps up
from her station, vaults the railing

at the back of the bridge, presses
four buttons and says, fixed it.

You know, that's kind of hard to buy.

Similarly, um, you know, it is the, the
culmination of the character's arc, but

Rutherford sliding under the engineering
thing and realigning some isolinear chips,

engineering faster than anyone has ever
seen before, gets, gets them to the point

where they're like, they are powered by
the multiverse or something like that

is, is the, the line that we're given.

Rob: Yeah, there's, there's like
fueling the, the quantum or the, the

multiverse energy that's surrounding
them and fueling that into the,

the core to power them through.

Kevin: Yeah.

So there's a, there's a couple of
squinty moments for me in this, but

overall it holds up pretty well.

Rob: Yeah, and resolutions, uh, coming
thick and fast at the end, so we have

Starbase 80 coming back, we we have,
you know, the other dimension, uh, crew

coming back, no voices, just, but seeing

Kevin: voices.

As I said last week, I love the fact
that those alternate universe wacky

versions of these characters are now
present and known to our main reality.

And so, um, yes, Bashir and Garak
will get to reflect on the fact that

they could have, maybe should have
been a couple in another lifetime.

Rob: Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

And, um, lovely, Uh, lovely
ending for the captain getting

to be in charge of Starbase 80.

And the admiral.

The admiral coming play

Kevin: yeah, yeah.

I think they, they say that, uh, Kassia
Nox will stay in command of the station

itself, but, um, formerly, uh, Captain
Freeman will now, uh, be overseeing

the missions into the rift, exciting.

Rob: And the admiral's
there to play golf, but he's

Kevin: Oh yes, exactly.

I don't know if there is golf on Starbase
80 and if there is, it might be, uh,

kind of busted up mini golf, I feel like.

Rob: But yes, there was a montage.

What and what do

Kevin: There was a montage of character
beats that we got to see things concluding

and going on all around the Cerritos.

Um, the one that stood out to me was
O'Connor returned from his ascension.

Um, last seen ascending and,
and coming face to face with the

great koala of, of existence.

And, uh, he just kind of, uh, a
portal opens in the ceiling and he

falls onto the floor in sickbay and
he, uh, he shakily dusts himself off.

So

Rob: with a bit of blood on the forehead?

Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

Um, yeah, lots of little things.

Uh, I really liked, um, Captain Ransom,
Captain Ransom, we um, uh, talking

about their first mission, uh, under
his command that they have to, they

have to go and meet some talking goo.

And the questions from the science
officers are, what viscosity is the goo?

And does it have anything nice to say?

Very good.

I, I am sad we don't get to
go on that mission with them.

Rob: And, um, they did the same thing that
has now become, and we, and we complained

about this with Picard Season 3,

Kevin: sure

Rob: but, uh, the, uh, I
liked that we actually heard

what Ransom's phrase is going

Kevin: go to warp line.

Rob: His go to warp line.

I, I friggin love that.

Especially so for me that flipped
everything because it was there

going, oh, they're doing it again.

And so for it to be a gag
like that, I went, yes.

And then going, oh man,
no, you can't do that.

Please do it as a workout.

Kevin: I'm with it.

I like it.

Engage the core.

Rob: core!

Kevin: Oh my gosh.

Um, yes.

How?

Talk about going out on a high.

The final joke of Lower Decks.

And for me, it is, it probably
landed, um, right up there, if not

the best joke in all of Lower Decks.

It went out on a high for me.

To me, it made me wonder, did they think
of that line first and go back five

seasons and decide our first officer has
to be a fitness junkie, because in five

years time, he's going to say engage
the core and it's going to be hilarious.

Rob: going to work on every single level.

So, um, it's, yeah, it's, it's great.

Like we talked about, it's not an end.

Like what they kind of did with
Discovery, they tacked it on afterwards,

which you told me about, of going,
this is the end of the Discovery to

get to the point where we have, um,
that mini episode, which was called,

Kevin: Calypso.

Rob: Calypso.

Yeah, I watched Calypso after your

Kevin: Oh, you did?

Rob: Yeah, and it was good.

It was good.

The actor who played the, um, the,
the main human character, I've seen

him in great stuff, he's awesome.

Um, but yes, this is, and even,
even Prodigy did a bit of going,

this is the end of this, but
we've still got adventures that

could happen for season three.

But I think Lower Decks brought it
together beautifully of going, this is

the end of this crew, this adventure.

Now the crew has shifted a bit.

celebrating all layers of the Cerritos
crew, which is great with that montage,

but then to get excited about, Ooh,
this is what it could happen if we

get a, a, you know, a sixth season.

I think they

Kevin: It really did fill the
brief of feeling like these

characters have come a long way.

There's, there's a moment in this episode
where, um, Mariner is looking for the

missing Klingon brother, and she runs into
Cetacean Ops, where the two, uh, dolphins

are, and Boimler is just standing there
with a hose, hosing one of them down.

Rob: Cause earlier on, he said, you've
got to get into engineering right now.

And it goes down to, and he's
just said, that's, that's the

job he had to race down to do.

It's just to water all of

Kevin: moment where I was like,
what is, what is Boimler doing

standing there with a hose?

Surely he has more important things to do.

And it made me realize seeing these
lower deckers do what at the start of

this series was what they did all day.

These lower decker jobs, uh, the fact that
it seemed unusual and weird is a testament

to how far these characters have come.

Rob: Oh, like, even within the first
five minutes, when both Mariner and, uh,

Boimler go to the Captain and go, this is
what's happening, and then she went, okay,

let's go to command, and he went, what?

Oh, I thought we'd need to no?

Let's do this straight away.

You've shown in the past what you
can do, and we believe, we trust

you now, and they're going, okay.

They, that's great writing,
to get to five seasons going,

Kevin: That's it.

Man, that is some good captaining!

Uh, one more of those
lines to the camera, I felt

Rob: Yes.

Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

All right.

So, um, yes, we both loved it.

Well done Lower Decks.

The thing that we wanted to call
out and talk about this episode

is unreasonable Klingon ships.

So we have, we have our, uh, new Klingon
sister, Relga, here, sister of Dorg and

Bargh, uh, from earlier in the season.

Uh, and she, she makes
a nuisance of herself.

She won't listen to reason.

She's given the shield
modifications and throws them away

because they're useless to her.

Rob: And quite clever in creating
a alternate version of the

Admiral to speak through the

Kevin: Clever slash dishonorable.

It was, it was a move befitting a Romulan,

Rob: Mm, ooh, yes, very much
so, not very Klingon way.

Kevin: This happens now and then in Star
Trek that a Klingon ship is there to be a

nuisance, a, a unre a, a force that won't
listen to reason, and, uh, I thought we

could go back and talk about, uh, one or
two other times that that has happened.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, that's a good idea.

I'm not sure how well, I think mine
fits into the brief a little bit on

the periphery, but, um, I wanted to
do it because it was your domain and

I wanted to step into your domain
and do a, uh, T do a TNG episode.

Kevin: Wow.

Okay.

I've, I've ultimately
settled on a TNG one myself.

I looked at some others.

I have to say for you, my mind
went straight to Christopher

Lloyd in Star Trek III.

But then I realized, should I, how
would I feel about myself if, if I

made Rob watch Star Trek III again?

Rob: I did, I was thinking Star Trek III.

I was also thinking Star Trek IV, Kang as

Kevin: Oh, I also thought
of Star Trek V, Klaa.

These movies are replete with
unreasonable Klingons, Rob.

Rob: Pretty much, pretty much, but
I went no, no, no, let's go into a

domain that, you know, many Star Trek
fans would be unhappy that I have

not explored as deep as I should.

Kevin: All right.

Well, we'll talk about
our two TNG episodes.

There was a, there was like a, a
runner up for me, which is a run of

episodes in Enterprise season two.

We've talked about the first one
before, Judgment, which is where Captain

Archer is in prison on trial and he
gets to meet Worf's ancestor as the

advocate for him in the Klingon court.

And this is a whole, uh, episode
of retelling an encounter with

an unreasonable Klingon ship
they ultimately have to disable.

Um, as a followup to that episode, uh,
that was season two, episode 19 season

two episodes, 25 and 26, the end of this
season that culminates in the attack on

Earth, uh, by the Xindi that kicks off all
of season, uh, three, um, those last two

episodes, the antagonist throughout them
is actually that same Klingon captain,

Duras of the, uh, the Duras sisters
later in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Uh, Duras is, is trying to get
his revenge on, uh, Archer and the

Enterprise, and specifically Archer.

Uh, they, they are continually attacking
the Enterprise in between, uh, talk

heavy, plotty scenes about what's going to
happen as a result of the attack on Earth.

So that is there, uh, but, uh, I
found an even better one to talk

about, but let's go to yours first.

What, what did you find for us, Rob?

Rob: Well I went, uh, Star
Trek Next Generation, Season 2,

Episode 8, A Matter of Honor..

Kevin: We have a match.

Rob: And

Kevin: through the screen.

We have a match.

Yes, this is my unreasonable
Klingon of choice as well.

Rob: it's only like, uh, I say it's
on the periphery because he's only

unreasonable right near the very end.

For the most of it, um, for me
this is very proto Klingon in the,

in the new approach to Klingon.

Kevin: Yes.

I agree.

Rob: At this point, I'm going
back and I'm going, okay, so this

is 1989, best year in cinema.

Um, so all we have as Klingon
experience is, um, this is February,

so Star Trek V hadn't come out yet.

Um, so it's Klingons in Star Trek IV,
III, II, I, and the original series.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: So, we

Kevin: And Worf.

We had seen Worf.

Rob: Worf for one season.

Um, so this is our first real endeavour.

We have been on a Klingon ship in
Star Trek III and Star Trek IV.

They pretty much, you know, it's the whole
movie is them on the Klingon Bird of Prey.

But, um, yeah, this is them doing
some really, like, stuff that I

take for granted now because I've
seen so much other Star Trek,

especially with Deep Space Nine,
which they explore quite a lot of.

But this is going, you know, finding
out about the female Klingons,

finding out about their eating habits.

Um,

Kevin: Gagh established in this

Rob: Gagh is established, and of course,
it's best eaten, you know, alive.

Um, and honor what it means within
the family about, you know, my

father died in honor and the
other Klingon go my father was

Kevin: You're right, it's so easy
to take that stuff for granted now,

but it was really started here.

And notably, this is pre
Ronald D. Moore Klingon stuff.

Like, Ronald D. Moore gets a lot of
credit for writing the Klingon opuses

of later seasons, but all of that is
based on some stuff that is established

right here in Matter of Honor.

Rob: Right here.

Matter of Honor does it really well.

So, uh, for

Kevin: Burton Armus is the writer.

There are a couple of other
story credits on this, but

Rob: quite a few

Kevin: to be the main

Rob: Wonder, uh, Haight
and, uh, Gregory Amos.

Kevin: Yeah, um, great work team.

Rob: Um, but yeah, the inside of
the Klingon ship looks absolutely

stunning and so much so the, the makeup
looks beautiful in that lighting.

So much so later on when they transport
the Klingon captain onto the Enterprise,

the makeup is sadly lacking because

Kevin: Yeah, bright, the
lights are a little bright on

the bridge of the Enterprise.

Rob: And you go, ooh, they didn't
get their color tone right.

No, no.

Kevin: Something happened to your
skin in the transporter beam.

Rob: Yes.

So there's quite an ex not a
very interesting cold opener.

It kind of just goes, this
is some stuff that happened.

We're kind of used to big,

Kevin: It's very procedural, isn't it?

This the, the, the conversation on the
phaser range between Picard and Riker

about, uh, the, uh, interspecies exchange
program or the officer exchange program

initiated by Starfleet Command, they
say, which I think is a brilliant idea.

And I'm surprised, one of
the ideas I'm surprised was

not picked up in Lower Decks.

Rob: No, and it's really interesting
in these early days of Star Trek

Next Generation going, we've got to
do something futuristic and show,

let's do a phaser range, phaser
shooting range, and then they uh,

let's do the holodeck, that's far more
interesting, and we've got with that.

Um, so Riker, but, it's an exchange
program, but only Riker goes.

We don't get a Klingon on the, uh,

Kevin: No, that's right.

It's, yeah, it's, it's not so much
an exchange as a, as an envoy.

But we do have a, we do have a
crew member join the Enterprise and

wrestle with the procedures of, of
the Starfleet ship, uh, to mirror

Riker's experience on the Klingons'.

Rob: That is definitely our B story.

There's some beautiful
music choices in there.

Some beautiful music choices.

Whenever that alien appears, he
has a different type of music

tone, and it's really beautiful.

Like, it's noted how I go, Oh, right.

That's a big change.

Kevin: we're talking about production
value, I will also call out the

LCARS work that when he's working
at that science station at the back

of the bridge, it's not just like
sound effects and a static image.

We actually get closeups of the user
interface changing as he's doing scanning

it is in some ways, uh, more detailed
and intricate and fully realized than

any other user interface work we see
in Star Trek, The Next Generation.

Rob: Agreed.

It's, it's, it's amazing stuff.

So Riker is gonna go onto, um, this
Klingon ship to, so like, see what

it's like and build, 'cause it has a
treaty between, uh, Klingon and, uh, the

Klingon Empire and, uh, the Federation.

So they're trying to build this
understanding of each other.

Um, and Riker throws
himself right into it.

He's eating all the food, he's learning
all, he's spending time with Worf to

get all the details about how to survive
on a ship and all that type of stuff.

Much to the disgust of, uh.

Uh, of the Doctor, and, and this
is, like, this is early, early

Picard, so he's not completely

Kevin: Picard, it's very early Pulaski.

Rob: Very early Pulaski, and Picard
is still not going, it's very

hard for Patrick Stewart not to be
charming, but Picard is just so.

He gets a little bit at the end, like when
he finally gets Will back, and he's quite

relieved, and you see how relieved he is.

Or that moment where Will's the
captain of the Klingon ship, you

see that little smirk, you're going,

Kevin: goes, yeah, I'll
surrender … Captain.

I enjoyed it.

I liked the cold open.

It is weird energetically, but, um,
you get the sense, uh, that Picard

is like sharing the opportunity
already knowing that Riker is going

to want it, he doesn't want to
come right out and offer it to him.

Um, and, and that little, that little
game they get to play together on

the phaser range is fun to too.

Rob: So yeah, we've got Riker then on
the ship and he's learning all about

honor and relationships, having to face
up against the number two and go, no,

I'm number one, this is what I'm doing.

He had to vow his allegiance
to, um, to the Klingon ship.

Um, and just working the minefield that
is Klingon honor and, uh, power system.

And then he gets hit on, and
uh, even though he is very

ugly, she still will have him.

The Klingon women

Kevin: Ha!

I wrote down most of this scene for
notes just because I loved it so much.

If Klingon food is too strong for
you, perhaps we could get one of

the females to breastfeed you.

laugh and then she goes, he's not
very attractive, but I will have him.

And then they are inquisitive.

They want to know how you would endure.

And Riker asks, endure what?

And he says, them.

And Riker does the slow
look and goes, one or both?

Rob: This is 1989, season 2, and he
is throwing in a ménage à trois joke.

That that is great stuff in there.

Kevin: Very, very good.

Rob: She licks her lips, she like, licks,
licks her teeth, and yep, she, she wants

him bad, even though he is not attractive.

Kevin: Yeah, it's, it's, um.

Yeah, it's some stuff that I
feel like human characters could

definitely not get away with.

that they're Klingons makes
it, makes it, um, okay.

Rob: Especially they focus on one
Klingon woman, in, like, in a cutaway

shot, and they focus on her so much,
and then we never see her again.

So the one, there's the one that speaks,

Kevin: moment is given to, there is not
just one woman on klingon ship, two.

And so it is normal for them
to be serving in the ranks.

I was really glad to see that because
the, there's a, a walk and talk earlier

on before Riker goes on the mission
with Worf, where Worf is, is confirming

Riker's understanding of the, uh,
chain of command on Klingon ships, and

that is your duty to, uh, assassinate
your superior when he becomes, uh,

incapable of fulfilling his duties.

And all of the pronouns in that,
uh, conversation are he, so he

will assassinate his captain
when he becomes incapable.

And I was like, Ooh, he, he, he, um, like,
It would have been nothing at the time,

but this is one of the things that hasn't
aged well about this show that, uh, any

of those people could or should be women.

I'm still hanging out for my first, uh,
my first, um, female starship captain,

apart from Lursa and B'Etor, of course.

Rob: Oh right, I thought you were
hanging out for your first, uh, Klingon

human ménage à trois, um, but that's
a whole, that's a whole other podcast.

Kevin: No, but it was, yeah, you're right.

It was great to see, uh, women among
the rank and file of this Klingon ship.

Rob: And, but, you know, on, on the flip
side of that, it was kind of disappointing

that it was still quite late 80s, so
when she is showing her interest, um,

Riker is clearly disgusted, as opposed
to, as opposed to going, Hey, we're all

other species, and you know, it's okay.

Like, the thought of being with a
Klingon woman is, oh, I'm going,

Ah, I'm glad they even evolve

Kevin: I didn't quite read that.

He had the same uncomfortable smile as
he had when looking at the food to me.

Oh, this is very Klingon,
but I'm going along with it.

Rob: along.

I can just see he's stuck in a
threesome going, All right, I'm

just going to go along with this.

Okay,

Kevin: a funny when she leaves, there is
a funny shot like it cuts from Riker in

close up looking uncomfortable and then
it cuts to a wide shot as she leaves the

mess hall, and now in restored HD, you
can actually lean in and almost make out

Riker's expression in this very wide shot.

And it's kind of like, weeeeee.

Like it was not meant to be seen.

It felt like almost a, an, an outtake.

Um,

Rob: But, um, this episode did beautiful
with, you know, the disgrace within the

Klingon culture of a, not having a, um,
uh, a warrior's death and what that means,

not, yeah, and especially, it rings true,
especially because with future episodes

with Riker and his dad, for him there
going, he's your, he's your father.

He's there going, I will not talk
to him again, I will never see him

again, he goes, He's your father,
um, was really powerful stuff.

Kevin: Big shout out to Brian
Thompson who played Klag, Riker's

second officer on this ship.

This is a guy he's, I, I always remember
him from his outings in The X-Files

as, as a kind of a heavy in that.

He often plays the scary,
intimidating, um, bad guy of

little, uh, little dialogue.

But here he had some speeches and
some character beats, some great,

just like meaningful looks that
I thought worked really well.

Rob: The fact that, yeah, I thought,
oh, okay, he's gonna be killed off early

on, but no, they kept him, he was his
main connection, so that at the end,

when Riker gets hit by the captain and
sent off, he goes, thank you, my friend,

and they're going, they've earned that.

He's also done, yeah, he's, he's
been a, a figurehead within, Um,

genre TV and film for, for decades.

He was like in the first episode
of Buffy the Vampire Slayer

as a vampire, killed off.

Then he came back as another character in
Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the Destroyer.

Um, he's done multiple, you know,
like the X-Files as you said,

but he always brings the goods.

He's, he was very good in
this particularly and they

gave him a lot to work with.

Um, and the complications of when our
captain of the Klingon ship gets a bit

too, you know, doesn't follow orders
and goes rogue, how Riker manages

the minefield of, you have no honor,
I will battle here, I'll find then

Kevin: I think to this day, these
are my favorite scenes on the

bridge of a Klingon starship.

And that includes all of the
scenes in movies, amazingly

produced and acted movies.

It works, the politics of a Klingon
bridge are so well realized here.

It's really enjoyable.

Um, We, we had at this point seen a bridge
of a Klingon starship on Star Trek: The

Next Generation once before in Heart of
Glory, which is a season one, episode 20.

And, uh, according to my reading,
I have to go back and look at it.

When we see that bridge, it's only
through the view screen over comms and

in the background of the Klingon captain
is both the Klingon Empire's seal, but

also the United Federation of Planets,
like they are by side behind his head.

And it's supposed to really be leaning
into that idea that we are, we are now

allies and almost, and the Klingons
are not just allies, but part of the

United Federation of Planets now, and
they backed back from that here, and

I feel like reused one of the sets
from the movies, or at least parts

of it, uh, and it feels like this is
where that look of a Klingon ship is

truly established for the first time.

Rob: Yeah.

Because I'm definitely looking at
Star Trek III, they're just, you

know, moustache twirling villains.

I mean, Christopher Lloyd does a
great job, but there is nothing

other than he's just the black
hat, and he's got his henchmen.

This is really good for the Klingons
of going, this is the culture,

these are the people that they are.

And it's, it's beautifully done.

And, and that final moment
with Riker, with the punch.

Learning when not to duck.

Beautiful line.

Um, as he walks out with Worf
going, you know, Can I just say?

I'm really glad we have you on our ship.

Yeah, it's

Kevin: Yeah.

You come from an amazing culture
and I'm glad you're on our side.

Uh.

Captain Kargon, the, the Klingon
captain does a good job here.

He is, uh, memorable for me because he
comes back later this very same season

as the, the captain of the Pakled ship,
which you've seen, the cap, the Pakleds

in Lower Decks, these like kind of
dull, not very intelligent, uh, species.

He very much plays that archetype as
the Pakled captain and you can see

shades of it here is like, he's a
captain, he has gravitas, but he's

not the brightest bulb in the pack.

Rob: Yeah, so he's definitely not gonna be
remembered, uh, there's not gonna be songs

sung about him, that's, that's for sure,

Kevin: I really love the portrayal
though, and it's both in the writing

and the performance that, um, being
a good Klingon captain does not

necessarily mean being a smart person.

Uh, it's playing the political game,
uh, in order to get the best out

of the crew under your leadership.

Rob: Definitely.

And I think, yeah, it was clearly
shown that he got as well, like

that final ending with Riker.

Riker's there going, this is what
you gotta do, and he's going, yeah,

this is what I've gotta do as well.

We can't go, thanks for
that, thanks for that.

I've gotta hit you, and then I've
gotta get you dragged off so I can

keep face, cause that's what we do.

Um, really beautifully done.

Yeah, well acted, and it was a shame to
bring him into the fluorescent lights

of the Enterprise, cause it may, yeah.

The makeup should take the makeup
under that lighting should not

take away from his excellent work.

Kevin: Yes, Christopher
Collins is the actor there.

Well done, sir.

And I felt like a small miracle in
the writing here of the fact what for

this episode to work as a premise, the
Klingon captain had to be hell bent and

convinced of the fact that the Enterprise
had betrayed them and needed to be

destroyed and yet be willing to keep
Riker in position as his first officer.

And, uh, they achieved that and I
can't quite see how they achieved that.

It's a small miracle

Rob: beautiful thing of going, y'know,
denounce your ship, he goes, I'm not

denouncing my ship, but I'm staying here,
and he goes, well, I would have, y'know,

if you threw your ship under the bus,
that would have you a man of no honour.

And you're there going,

Kevin: I would where you stand.

Rob: have killed you and I'm going,
oh my gosh, how do you manage that?

Um, and also had a, uh,
many, many years before.

Uh, Captain Phillips came out, uh, we
had Riker doing, I am the captain now.

Kevin: Yup.

Rob: But he very much, Riker definitely
filled in the role of, uh, Kirk.

He was being very James T. Kirk in that.

Kevin: Yeah, glad we matched on it.

I was so happy to be reminded
of this episode's existence.

It had passed from my consciousness.

And when I went looking for Klingon ship
stories, it was right there on the list.

And I went, Oh yeah, I love that episode.

Rob: It's really good, even
at the start, when we have the

awkward, we all look alike line,

Kevin: They blow past it pretty quickly.

Rob: pass it pretty quickly.

Um, but yeah, and some great moments
with Miles O'Brien in there, um,

and, uh, yeah, and Worf got a lot
to do as well, which was lovely.

Kevin: Wesley.

Wesley had a fair bit to do as well.

Um, I don't know.

Wesley is as Wesley was at the time.

Uh, as good as you could expect
given what they were giving him.

Rob: Yeah, Wesley bringing an end to that
B plot, quite a nice little nod there.

Um, But yeah, for me it was great
to go back, and I mean, any time

you throw a TNG episode at me,
you throw me nothing but the best.

Um, and I found that one myself, so I'm

Kevin: Very good.

Well done, sir.

Rob: What a, what a great, what
a great episode for the Klingons.

That's one of the better
Klingon episodes, I reckon.

Especially because it's so early on,
we kind of, we kind of more focus on

the later Deep Space Nine ones, where
everything has been established, but

we wouldn't have that, like you said.

And Ronald D. Moore gets a lot of credit
for that, but we wouldn't have that

if we didn't have this episode here.

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely.

Um, it echoes all the way into Deep
Space Nine's Klingon stories and

Rob: Way of the Warrior stuff

Kevin: here.

Rob: Apocalypse Rising, all the stuff
we've talked about before, we've talked

about all those big ones in Deep Space
Nine before, we wouldn't have those if

we didn't have, uh, A Matter of Honor.

So I will I didn't know of this
episode, now I will never forget it.

So,

Kevin: Yeah.

Great.

Well, we are recording this on the eve
of Section 31 arriving on our intertubes.

And, uh,

Rob: the show that they've been
trying for decades to get online

and nobody has ever wanted it.

Kevin: I'm, I'm looking forward
to being pleasantly surprised

because my expectations are low.

I think, I think you're in a similar boat.

Rob: And we know that they're trying
to be actively un Star Trek, in

how it's put together and how it's
thrown together, so that's what we

need to conscious of going into it.

Kevin: I'm in the mood to be
forgiving of an experiment,

even if that experiment fails.

Uh, if, if nothing else, it will be brief.

Hehehehe

Rob: always, Mr. Yank, are the diplomat.

So you are

Kevin: I, I guess what I'm hoping for, um,
if, if this is a failure and is ultimately

a story we don't enjoy, I hope it serves
at least one function, is to clear our

throats of all of this Section 31 stuff.

I we can, I hope we can do it
once and for all and move past it.

Rob: This'll be it.

This'll be it.

We've been talking about it for decades,
and it's never been able to get off.

This was meant to be a series, now
it's just a telemovie, that's only

being shown online, obviously.

So, if it's good, great, wonderful,
it's not gonna lead to anything else.

Kevin: I hope it makes its point in the
90 minutes or however long runtime it is.

If it's, if it's a setup for a
dangling, uh, cliffhanger and it

goes, eh, if you give us a TV series,
we'll tell you the rest of the

story, then yeah, not interested.

Rob: Yeah, I'm looking forward to
when we reconnect to talk about this,

and whether they did do that or not.

Kevin: Yes.

Well, come along on the
adventure with us listeners.

Given, given when we are recording
this, it is highly likely you have

already seen Section 31 by the
time you're listening to this.

So, um, I, I, Rob and I look forward
to joining you in that magical

future that you find yourself.

Rob: We'll see you there, people, in the
future, that is, a couple weeks away.