Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
to uh, Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin,

Rob: and me, Rob.

Kevin: And if I sound a little different,
it's because I am coming to you from

a secret holiday destination and I
don't have my regular mic with me.

But we're doing the best we can, Rob.

Rob: You can't stop the signal.

I know I'm using another reference
from a different franchise, but

Kevin: Oh, is that

Rob: That is from Serenity.

So that

Kevin: Oh, of course it

Rob: The final in the Firefly series
that they tried to carry on into movies.

It just couldn't, it couldn't stick
even though it was a brilliant show.

Can't stop the signal.

Kevin: uh, We'll have to do a
Serenity cast sometime when we

run outta Star Trek episodes.

Rob: There, look, there are some
Browncoats out there who would, who

would be very excited to hear that.

Kevin: but this week we are talking
about the season finale or finales,

depending on how you slice it,
of Star Trek Prodigy season one.

Supernova parts one and two.

Rob: the real actual finale as
opposed to the mid-season finale,

that seemed like the end of a
season finale halfway through.

Yeah.

Yeah, they we're on track now,
Nickelodeon, and you've done good.

That's how you do a season finale.

Kevin: Nothing is the
same again after this

Rob: Nothing at all.

No.

But yes.

And how did you, in, in general terms
and the, as a first impression, how'd

you find this as a season finale?

We've done so many seasoned
finale's, you and I.

This is our third,

Kevin: Yeah, gosh, you're
in such quick succession.

Yeah.

I really enjoyed it.

I thought it was a great
culmination to the season.

The moment to moment watching
of it, like having watched it

twice now, I enjoy it more as I'm
watching it than reflecting on it.

I don't know if that means anything,
but I think that's probably what you

want is to enjoy the actual watching.

And this is an enjoyable watch for sure.

Yeah, it was it brought a lot of, there
were a lot of bookends in this where

that reached way back to the very first
episode and I was like, wow, this is,

even though they gave it to us in two big
chunks, it was clear they planned this

whole season out from beginning to end
and planted some seeds at the start that

would only pay off in this final chapter.

And it feels like satisfying TV to me.

How about you, Rob?

Rob: Yeah, yeah.

Really loved it and really some really
nice emotional beats in there that hit a

lot better than they possibly should have.

And um, really nice set up, not only
paying off things that have been

established in the season before or
leading up to it, but also some nice setup

for where we are going to go, which is,

Kevin: Gosh.

Yeah, some big promises.

Rob: Yeah, big promises and especially
while I was watching this season,

I'm going, where do they go?

Where can this actually go?

Was cuz it's been defined by this
structure of, you know, those uninitiated

embracing Starfleet from the outside.

So it's gonna be very interesting to see.

Does it just, Just a regular, another
regular Star Trek show or does Yeah.

And lose what was so unique
and special about it, or does

it go to that next level?

It's gonna be very interesting to see.

Kevin: Yeah, there was some moments in
this where I was watching the action and I

was like, wow, there's a lot of spaceship
eye candy here of ducking and weaving

and be in a dog fight with the Defiant.

Hello Deep Space Nine fans.

Rob: Very happy here.

We were, we went.

We did our nod.

We did our our classed hands
together going Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Defiant's here.

We love you.

Kevin: The Enterprise E is buried
in that armada somewhere as well.

You don't get a great look at it,
but there are some freeze frames

online that spot the registry
number on a rapidly passing nacelle.

And so they were there, which is
good to see them post Nemesis as

Rob: Look now your influence over me
is becoming more and more apparent.

The more we do this, Kevin, because
it you dropped a little thought worm

into my head and it just stayed with me
the whole time, especially when we had

the epicness of part one of Supernova.

I'm there going, logically and
policy-wise, this wouldn't happen.

But because of the plot point of them
needing to have all the Federation

ships and calling every Federation
ship and they went, oh, this is Star,

star Federation policy, I'm going no.

Cuz it's just one ship.

There should've just been at least one
or two ships to have the entire armada.

That's the only way the plot, and I'm
doing inverted commas again, could happen.

So I was all the way through going.

Yep.

There's a lot of eye candy here,
there's a lot of explosions

and a high body count as well.

Like for a Nickelodeon show.

I'm going the Star Trek execs shuffled in
and went, okay, our time we could do this

Kevin: Oh yeah.

They bring in the Klingons.

I just thought those are the
friendliest Klingon I've ever seen in

Star Trek that they responded, yeah.

Minutes later.

The Bird of Prey is like
breaking apart in front of us.

I was like, oh, no.

Rob: Um, But yeah, I was just
there going this is a dumb move.

It's just happening for plot purposes.

In reality, you would only have
one or two ships there that would

be more than enough to outnumber.

Yeah.

This what they know of the
Protostar and the gang there.

But it led to this incredibly dramatic
and tense, well-written episode, one.

Like you had all hope was lost.

Then they used the ingenuity
to come up with this great

idea, and that started to work.

And then the next kicker to bring to
the cliffhanger brought everything down.

So I'm jumping ahead.

Kevin: That final sting of we
got the Klingons and the other

races to come and rescue us.

It's like the classic friendship
solves everything sort of Nickelodeon

solution, and then they, oh, no,
the computers aren't playing ball.

The automated distress calls
are bringing in more Federation

ships, and it's not going to work.

To be continued.

It was a yeah.

Gut

Rob: To end with the line, Total
annihilation is a hell of a way to

finish off a Nickelodeon episode.

Can I just say, I dunno if
Rocco's Modern Life ever finished

with an episode like that

Kevin: the, I feel like the
first part was the ship battles

episode and Supernova part two
was the character payoffs episode.

And it worked well.

Rob: and it definitely showed that it was
like we were in the land of television

because they resolved it quite quickly.

Not conveniently, not in an easy
way, as a very efficient way of

doing it and getting to that point
and hitting those emotional points.

But then we had that luxury of the
remaining half of the episode to be

like the epilogue of the episode.

A month later and the trial and the
deliberation and then the goodbyes,

and then the, it just like where in
a movie you'd like end with them,

being rescued and that was it.

But they went, no, we're television.

We can take that time to really
explore their ventures, their

first steps on actual, on the
on the streets of San Francisco.

Kevin: Yeah.

A highlight for me was the
character puzzle in the hallway.

When our crew comes face to face with
Drednok in the hallway, and he pins,

you know, he gives the gravity mine and
he, he freezes Murf against the wall and

electrocutes Zero and pins Dal against
the wall with the little boomerang thing.

And then they had to figure
out how to work together to,

to extract themselves from it.

Lovely little moment
of just here they are.

They only succeed together.

It was almost too cute.

But as a, like a reinforcing
moment of just how much they've

grown together and work together
well I really love that payoff.

Rob: balance it out when you've got
that almost too cute for its own good

working as a team will solve everything.

And then you realize in the
background, there's just a carcasses

of Federation ships everywhere.

And then they, so it's that balance
that I think they got all right.

Kevin: Bringing back the translators
failing and them not being able

to communicate with each other.

That's another example of the
book ending of the series.

They, these characters started not
being able to understand each other and

got a taste of that at the end here as

Rob: and not that much of a problem
for them because it was quite, it was

solved quite quickly by Gwyn who's
proving herself over and over again

to be a far more qualified captain.

Kevin: One of those camera passing
over the shoulder into a non-literal

depiction of the events with Gwyn
speaking in English to the Klingons,

even though we are to understand
she is speaking in Klingon to them.

Um, yeah.

Really good.

Rob: So yeah.

And Ronnie Cox was back
for a little bit as

Kevin: Yes, I now understand why
Admiral Jellico is in this series.

He was here to make one poor
decision in the finale, which is

to send the boarding party in.

And despite despite Janeway's uh,
understanding of the situation,

Rob: Cox is fast becoming the
uh, Jar Jar Binks of Star Trek.

We go who's gonna be the poor schmuck that
lets the emperor stay on for this time?

Ugh!

Well, who's the poor schmuck who's
gonna send the boarding party on.

Kevin: I assume Admiral Jellico does
some good things too, but at least

on screen his career is not the most
illustrious, but it doesn't seem

to have kept him from moving up in

Rob: Look, we are all the lead
characters in our own story, in our own

life, obviously, and I'm sure Jellico
has his incredible moments in his

own spinoff that he has in his head.

But will anybody tune in to
watch the Jellico spinoff series?

I think not.

Um, And a shock death.

I didn't expect.

I knew that.

Like I knew the Diviner's
death was probably gonna come,

but I didn't expect it to be.

I thought it was gonna happen
in part two of Supernova.

But yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

Spear to the spear, to the
uh, offscreen, midsection.

Rob: Always gets you an
animation, doesn't it?

That non-disclosed midsection

Kevin: He died pretty easy, I have
to say, like given that he was found

floating in the remains of his asteroid
by Janeway and crew and revived

the fact that one, one spear to the
middle was enough to do him in fe.

Felt a

Rob: yeah, it was a little bit.

Kevin: easy.

Rob: They wanted to get rid of John
Noble really quickly for some reason.

So I dunno what they've got against him.

But yes but we did get a very much
relating back to Star Wars, a very

much a Darth Vader at the end of New
Hope we had the Diviner flying off for

further missions or causing further
mischief, which we will have to hopefully

Kevin: The Vindicator.

That whole, the whole like sword fight
on the bridge with the like camera, often

panning outside of the bridge, seeing them
jumping on the platforms through glass.

It did have a very Empire Strikes
Back final battle with Darth Vader.

Like, it, It felt like
the lightsaber battle to

Rob: And we had been building up for that
because, the Vindicator had been getting

through, getting away with so much.

We wanted there to be some sort of,
come on, Gwyn just kick her ass.

But,

Kevin: Oh, she's, she relishes being evil
in just the right amount of punchability.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: Like, you are gonna pay for this.

And she goes, ah, maybe but not today.

And steps back into the robot.

It was just like, Ooh, yeah,
we're gonna enjoy her comeuppance.

Rob: She's enjoying putting a bit more
pepper on those lines, especially in that

particular episode, like with beaming
a board and she was knocking out the

Federation guy and all that type of stuff.

She was, oh, and and
Drednok did a judo chop.

Kevin: Oh yes.

Chop

Rob: All the things he could
have done, he does a judo chop.

But yes, we then get to how did you
find the the solution in part two

of the only way to save the day is
to use the weakness of the Protostar

and its strength at the same time.

Kevin: Yeah it works in the moment,
but this is what I was talking

about before that on reflection,
I find it a little unsatisfying.

Just that they could have done
that at any point in the past

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: If the goal is to save the
Federation or save Starfleet from this

virus, yes, self destruct the ship.

Uh, apparently that was something
available to them all this time, but they

didn't do it until they had no other

Rob: No other choice.

Kevin: Yeah, I guess is okay.

There was a lot of when Zero explains
the plan and they on the bridge,

like summon the 3D wireframe image
of the ship shooting and exploding

in pieces a along the route.

And then later in part two, Janeway
when addressing the Federation Council,

just in the middle of a speech summons
a hologram of the Protostar ship in

the middle of the conference room.

There's a significant amount of people
summoning, improvised holograms to make

points in the middle of conversations,
that I'm like, who d like who drew that?

Like, when did you draw that?

Rob: They did have a month between,
so there's, clearly there's a lot

to do in star— there's a whole
section to prepare every form of

every known hologram imaginable to be

Kevin: But I think it's just, I think it's
an expediency of storytelling when you've

got a 30 minute cartoon and you've gotta
get it through a certain amount of plot.

It's handy just to go look
at this, it explains it.

Without going, please join me in the
conference room so I can show you

a presentation I prepared earlier.

It's just the, let's get to it.

Let's get to

Rob: it's the old, problem, a
conundrum within any sci-fi show

is that, is there going to be the
whiteboard or the blackboard moment.

Like in Back to the Future II,
where Doc Brown literally gets

a blackboard out to explain time
travel and alternate dimensions.

So yeah, it was very much that case
of Zero going here we go, right here.

And it just so happens to
come out when I need it.

And and not only, and the two
different wormholes comparing it

and they look exactly the same.

Cause of course they do.

Kevin: Yep.

Yep.

We're well into part two here, so I
think it's probably worth talking about.

What to me is the heart of this
two-parter is hollow Jane way's

sacrifice of herself to save the crew.

That the moment she realizes she
doesn't fit on the Isolinear and you

see exactly what she's going to do,
they don't have to explain it to you

until afterwards when they're explaining
it to the kids, what has happened.

Really like great writing, great
performance, great animation, all

working together there to create
what even on second viewing to me

was like, a knot in my stomach of
this emotional end of a character

that is just a training simulation.

But it pulled the heartstrings
real, real well for

Rob: Well, it was, and definitely
a clever use of time jumping within

narrative structure, because obviously
Janeway finds out this, has enough

time to record the farewell message
and then Dal comes in whereas it

jumps ahead to cut out that part.

So we don't know until that point.

But yeah,

Kevin: But as she's lying
to them and saying, don't

worry, I'll be there with you.

Take the chip.

Mulgrew's like perha, I think maybe
Mulgrew's best dramatic performance

that I can remember it right now
anyway of the saying it'll be fine.

And walking that tight balance that we
as the audience can spot the emotion

in her voice but the characters can't.

Beautiful dramatic tension there.

Rob: Look, it is a gift.

It is a gift that we as a star Trek
fans have been given, Kate Mulgrew

and the fact that she has blessed us
by coming back to do this shows that

we do not deserve her, and we should
appreciate her for all that she is.

And she's always been overlooked.

And I'm so grateful that, Prodigy,
this little quirky, weird show that

I had no idea about that I would get
this invested into and a lot of other

Star Trek fans as well, is giving this
platform to not only an incredible

character, but a wonderful performer
and giving that chance to shine again.

And hopefully that gets people to
appreciate, in retrospect to go back

and rewatch Voyager and see what they
missed out on because yeah, just her

vocal work, as I've said before, she's
done voiceover work with character work

before with animated series of Batman.

So she's showing her expertise
not only as a performer, but

specifically as a voiceover actor.

Kevin: A master of the

Rob: Master.

Master.

We do not deserve her, but we have her.

So let's relish her and praise her.

Kevin: The scenes without dialogue of
the crew jumping into the improvised

shuttle craft and being like, sucked
out of the cargo bay, at an odd angle

and tumbling away from the ship.

It's all played without dialogue and the
music is doing an amazing job there of

making us feel the moment, feel the loss,

Rob: And you feel the
weight of the ship as well?

Cause like its front, it's it's front
rudder is out and so it's being dragged

out cause it's, it's just a copy.

So it has no impulse engines or anything.

It's just the barest minimum.

They don't even have seat belts.

Grab onto a, hang onto a pole
and grab onto your butts.

Kevin: Uh, it's so good.

What does it remind me of?

It reminds me, here's a deep cut.

It reminds me of Apollo 13 when the
movie or the actual events, but the

depiction in the movie is certainly what
tugged me at tugged my heartstrings.

Similarly, that the crew spends— it's
not a perfect match, but in Apollo 13,

the crew retreats to the lunar module
for life support in order to make their

way, their long way home to Earth.

And then at the end of the story,
that lunar module is not designed

to get them down to Earth.

They need to leave it behind, so they
pile back into the command module and

then cut it loose and it tumbles away.

And that same feeling of,
it's an inanimate object.

It doesn't mean anything, but, oh, that
thing was our home for all this time.

It has that same feeling as they're
leaving the Protostar and looking around

at everything for the last time of this
shouldn't hurt as much as it does, but it

Rob: Exactly, and especially they
flip it right around, as all sci-fi

shows like this do, we've invested so
much into the Protostar and we have

waited till the last possible moment
for it to be destroyed when it could

have been destroyed at any point.

And then as soon as they get back to
Federation and they're a part of it, they

just go, oh yeah, that was a prototype.

We got a, we got another, we only

Kevin: It's better.

It's better.

It's much

Rob: It's bigger, it's better,
it's sexier, and I'll love you more

than the original one ever did.

Kevin: I gotta shout out to the artists
for the nebula, the sparkly nebula

that forms when the Protostar explodes
and just it's played in silence.

The music drops away.

The ship warps.

And, whew this sparkly vision appears
in the sky, and surely they're gonna

call that the Janeway nebula or

Rob: It's gotta be,
it's gotta be the Jane.

Kevin: But I was like, it's just like
I want to freeze that and use it as my

desktop background for the next year.

It was just such a beautiful piece of eye

Rob: they've excelled
themselves, haven't they?

And like, how do you create, like they
showed it in, improvised hologram form

of sort of like, you know, spontaneously
at the same time exploding and traveling

through warp or whatever, go through warp.

But to have like just these streams of
lights and these sprinkles throughout

in this constant flow out into
infinity was yeah was really divine.

And they outdid themselves.

Like we've been talking about the
intergalactic vistas that we have

seen on these animated shows that
have really stepped things up.

So the live action shows have got a lot
to, and I dunno if they'll ever be able

to actually match what has been created
on Lower Deck and definitely Prodigy.

Kevin: Getting to see San Francisco
again in, in an animated form, and

Starfleet Command was an unexpected
treat and we spend a good amount

of time looking around there.

There's a great website that
I'll link to in the show notes.

It has been just keeping track of
the glimpses of future San Francisco

and Starfleet Command that we've seen
over the movies and the TV shows and

like comparing them to each other.

And where exactly is Starfleet Command?

Is it on the north side of the
Golden Gate Bridge or the south side?

It and is it to the east or to the west?

Like where in present day does
Starfleet command exist in the future?

Rob: Gotta be some
tours in San Francisco.

There's gotta be some Star Trek tours
where people take them down to the

bay and go, this is where this is.

There has to be, if there isn't,

Kevin: But the, yeah, but it's a
great article, like comparing in

different iterations, the same
buildings to each other, and is

this the same building or is it not?

Like it has got that full on,
excessively nerdy look at this

stuff that I really appreciate.

And as far as I can tell they,
Prodigy here has done a great job

of matching what we've seen before
uh, of, of Starfleet Command.

You get the Golden Gate Bridge covered
in solar panels and Starfleet command

is exactly where it should be at
the northeast end of it, which is

the most common place for it to be.

And yeah.

Rob: Would I be correct in saying like
in all the films though, the one that

spends probably the most time in San
Francisco is probably the reboots?

Cuz I know you see a bit of
it in The Motion Picture.

There's a little bit of it in two and
three and four a bit, especially yeah,

the Genesis Trilogy as I'm calling it now.

Uh, But yeah the, would I say
would the Pine films be the one

where you see most of it, cuz
they're actually at the Academy.

Kevin: Into Darkness has the actual
like sky ship chase with Khan and

Spock fighting it out on top of
the ship that's hurtling through

the streets of San Francisco.

So that's a pretty extensive tour there.

But I don't know about you, I,
first of all, alternate timeline.

Alternate San Francisco.

It doesn't really matter, right?

Doesn't

Rob: That's the multiverse.

Nothing matters.

Yeah.

If you

Kevin: But also those films as
beautiful as they are, my memory of

them is that it's a lot of CG eye
candy that does not necessarily ground

you in any place, any sense of place.

Maybe I need to go back and look.

Give them another shot.

Rob: do it to yourself.

Don't do it to yourself.

Why would you do that to yourself?

You used the word beautiful to
describe them, aren't they going?

Why would you say that?

Why would you do that to yourself?

Look, there's no wrong way of being
a fan, sometimes there's a wrong way

of doing a reinterpretation of Khan,
and they did that in Into Darkness.

Kevin: Look.

Speaking of the Genesis trilogy,
having the Protostar crew crash in

the bay below the Golden Great Bridge
and get rescued from the water.

What a nice echo of the
end of Star Trek IV.

Rob: Oh, look.

And if the ancestors of George and
Gracie came up and gave him a bit of

a high five, I would've loved that.

But.

That's just me personally.

So after the trial and a wonderful,
inspiring speech from Janeway about what

it is to be Starfleet and a beautiful
line about, there are 150 species

members in the Federation and Dal has
26 of them within him, so he is more

Starfleet than pretty much all of us.

I'm there going great.

Okay.

Can Janeway go back in time and say
that about, in Strange New Worlds

as well and all that issue will be

Kevin: It stood out to me in that
speech that she used the words our

alliance several times in this speech.

And it's it's an interesting framing
of Starfleet and the Federation.

There's always been that, that
strange duality of what is

Starfleet, what is the Federation.

Like, the Federation is
the alliance of planets.

Starfleet is the Navy for that alliance.

But the idea that it is an alliance.

That word to me, strikes me
as particularly militaristic.

And I don't know if it was Janeway playing
to the military brass and saying, remember

the alliance and value the alliance.

But that word to me just it rang like a
bell a couple of times that she said it,

that it wasn't, it isn't a community.

It isn't a Federation.

It is an alliance which has this military
connotation that I just found interesting.

Rob: Yeah, as we've talked about before,
ever since Star Trek II, where Nicholas

Meyer pretty much made Hornblower in
space, which was so against Roddenberry's

idea of the original Federation, there
has been this pull to what is the original

Roddenberry concept and what is this
militaristic advancement of Star Trek

through other creative interpretive eyes.

And especially if you're looking at
it from a canonical point of view,

but also creative point of view,
this is a post Dominion war where

the Starfleet is, and the Federation
is in its biggest conflict in over a

century, if not its entire existence.

So that type of militaristic jargon and
lingo has stayed within after all that

might be hard to break outta the system.

And we see with Picard later on,
it's definitely seems still more

quite militaristic as opposed to
that we're a group of explorers

getting together and let's find out
what's awesome about the universe.

Kevin: Some great teases about
what we can expect in the future

of Prodigy here at the end.

The idea that they have created, they
have green lit, a Protostar class of ship,

but that's not the one we're going on.

Janeway says I have a bigger plan for
us, her and her trainee crew, which

for the, this is another one of those
implausible situations to me that I'm

happy to go with because of the strength
of the story and the characters.

But the idea that a rear admiral would be
in, given a ship to train five trainees

sounds like an implausible use of
resources for Starfleet, let's just say.

Rob: So what?

Look, cause I

Kevin: You're not allowed into the
classroom, but we'll put you on a ship.

Rob: That's the thing.

Are they gonna be on the ship with
the rest of the crew or is it just

gonna be like a copy of season one
where it's just now real Janeway

with a gray streak in her hair with,

Kevin: looking forward
to seeing what it is.

I'm not sure they've figured
it out themselves either.

I think they need to work

Rob: cuz we've gotta bring back Jason
Alexander's sassy for no reason, but

then calms down, but then it becomes
like a bitchy, almost racist character.

And we need to bring the
number one who I really liked.

I like the number one, the Andorian.

He was really good.

He had that like distinguished
Sherlock Holmesy nose and

Kevin: He was the straight man.

It was, it is the the thankless
task o of being the professional

on the bridge who's working to
follow the orders and get the job

Rob: Doesn't get all the flashes and
doesn't get all the bells and whistles.

He just, just comes in, does his
work, punches the clock, and and walks

away with my MVP oh he's not my MVP.

I dunno why I was even saying that.

Kevin: I think what we're gonna see is
a Voyager A, there is a tease of that.

One of the, one of the shuttles that
is coming to rescue them over the bay

has the registry number, NCC-74656-A,
on it, which means Voyager A.

That's where I think we're going in

Rob: Yeah, I was gonna get to that.

I was thinking, yeah, they've
gotta be getting on a Voyager.

There's gotta be, if they're not doing the
Protostar, then it's gotta be a Voyager.

So we say goodbye to Gwyn.

And they have given her the name.

We've had the Diviner, we've
had the Vindicator, we had the

we had the incubator, we had
the no, we have the Unifier.

What a wonderful one.

That was a beautiful little moment.

I, yeah.

I thought that

Kevin: forward to, I hope they keep
her in it cuz I think they could

easily write her out at this point
and say, look, she goes off on that

mission and hopefully all goes well.

We'll maybe hear a line later
that says she, they made first

contact and it's going better.

They could go that way with it or
they could keep her in as like a

standing B plot for this series.

And I hope they do.

I hope we get to follow Gwyndala.

Rob: Look.

Yeah I think that's where the, they'd
be stupid not to do that if they've,

if it's split in two parts of, the, A
plot is finding Chakotay, or in many

ways the B plot will be Chakotay, and
the A plot will be how Solums do the

Kevin: but the whole crew is going
with Janeway to find Chakotay.

feel like that's gotta be the A plot.

I don't know what they're gonna do.

It's very weird to me that Gwyn is going
off to try and make first contact go

better, to change the future that Chakotay
is stuck in, that Janeway is going to

try and find Chakotay in the bad future.

It's mind bending.

If Gwyn succeeds, does the future
that Chakotay's stuck in change?

I don't

Rob: look, I like people taking risks,
but they are taking a big swing.

The, the Prodigy writers and
directors and the production team,

they're going okay that like they
have done well with season one.

They're going, let's go all out.

We've got parallel dimensions, we've
got time travel, which is always a

bitch of a thing to write, if you
ask the, the dean from Community.

Kevin: When they said that the Prodigy's
explosion had created a temporal rift

and that they got a signal from Chakotay
out of there, I kind of leaned back and

crossed my arms and went, okay, that's
the pill I'm being asked to swallow here.

That's the thing that makes the
least sense of this entire episode.

The episode would've been better
if not for that, but they wanted

that to set up their season two, so

Rob: They have, but they've been
constantly pushing Chakotay's story back

and back and god bless Rob, Robert Beltram
coming back to do the, that's another

thankless role of coming in, doing his
voice and then getting his voice echoed

and repeated and you say, oh, cool.

I'm gonna be this cool funky
A plot and this animated Star

Trek, ah, no, you're B plot.

Now you C.

There you're D.

Or you might be a in season two.

Oh, they're cha, they're changing

Kevin: I'll be hap.

I'll be happy to see him back.

I hope.

I hope we get a grumpier,
grittier Chakotay when we finally

Rob: Oh, he's gotta have he's gotta
have a, full on, Gandalf beard and

surviving out there in the wilds.

He's gonna have, because he is, as I've
spoken before, he is the dawg of Voyager.

So he's gonna have his own tribe set up.

I think there's gonna be a
tent and then pulls apart.

He's got a haram of nineties women, like
the Ferengi from a couple of episodes

ago when they're in the Delta quadrant.

Or maybe that's just my
mind playing tricks on me.

I

Kevin: What did you think
of the kiss or the kisses?

Rob: we got two

Kevin: there was a, there was
an ill-advised kiss in part one,

and then the more consensual
version in part two I don't know.

My, my partner who was watching the,
on the sofa next to me, she groaned

especially she groaned at the first
kiss and then groaned again at the

second kiss, and she's come on, can we
ever not have a romantic subplot here?

They're kids.

They're supposed to be kids.

Rob: And if you do not remember
who you wanted to kiss and who you

wanted to go steady with, and who
you wanted to, all that type of stuff

played a massive part of being a kid.

And I think it was handled it was, I
found it quite adorable how as soon as

it happened, everyone was, what the hell?

What I'm trying to tell you.

This what?

Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

What?

What who what?

Hey, who?

Haha.

It was like, It's like
a 80 sitcom magnified.

But I thought it was a very cute,
dignified final goodbye with a touch.

And it's hard to do an animation.

It's hard to do any type of, I feel
as if I'm watching an AI program

trying to become self-aware.

But then the Simpsons episode, where they
are in the future and then one and the

librarian turns to someone who goes first,
they love each other, then they hate each

other, and now they love each other again.

I don't get it.

And the person goes, that's
because you're a robot.

And then it cries and then
head blows up and it melts.

So that's what I feel about it's
gonna happen whenever there's

animated characters kissing.

I don't know.

That's just me.

So, With all that backstory, we get
to the point of I thought it was okay.

It was all right.

It wasn't too cringey.

Kevin: Yeah, I think it maybe only
works because it was a farewell.

They are going their separate ways.

If season two became the story of
the couple that is Gwyn and Dal, I'm

not sure we'd be watching the same TV

Rob: Yeah, let's put a pin in, let's
put a pin in that and let's, let's

focus on exploration, discovery,
saving the dawg and and saving Gwyn's

planet because it, it was a truly
tragic, end of a first contact story.

And I think we're gonna
see more of that race.

I think that's why I was pushing that
to be the, A plot more is because

they've spent so much time creating
this whole new race and the backstory

of its destruction would be, yeah.

I would be quite surprised if they push
that further back and go, no, this is

what makes us unique to everywhere else.

We don't have this species
anywhere else in the Star

Trek, so let's develop it more.

Kevin: Zero gets a new body
look, looks like it's designed by

Rob: It's very Apple.

It was very, it was, look, it's the iZero.

Kevin: That's right, the iZero.

I'm sure it'll be the hot new
toy when season two comes out.

Rok Tahk chooses a field of science
with Xenobiology, which is pretty

Rob: Yeah.

We, yeah.

That's the thing, like Rok Tahk is
doing so well with all the sciences

it seems a little bit why should she

Kevin: Why choose?

Why not everything?

Rob: Yeah.

If you can do everything, you do it.

And you've been doing really well, like
managing five or six different sciences.

And for me, I was a bit, oh, okay, so
you're just going to, animals is great.

Animals are great species from
different, every, that's awesome.

But they're going, oh, okay.

That's,

Kevin: Jankom seems to be like
settling into engineering classes

and learning not to use the hammer,
but to use the drill now and

Rob: And it fits in well, because
that's where, that's where you get your

O'Briens and your Scotty's and even
Torres, B'Elanna in some ways, that,

the salt of the earth type of, ah,
let's sort this out while everyone else

is being highbrow and stuff like that.

Jankom's perfectly fit, suited
for the for the orange jumpsuit.

Kevin: Yeah, for sure.

I'm not sure I caught
an end for Murf in this.

Rob: Murf, Murf's just in Starfleet.

Kevin: Just in

Rob: Murf just showed up.

Kevin: Look very early in
Supernova part II, there is a shot.

People walk onto the bridge and Murf.

No one comments on it, but Murf is
sitting in the captain's chair and

I was like, I don't know about that.

That seems like a bad

Rob: Yeah, we

Kevin: There are a lot of high
stakes buttons on that Captain's

Rob: We did have Murf jump up and
give the raspberry, then also slap

their behind in front of Drednok.

So not only just a showing the
backside, like that was a full

on multiple slap a slap that

Kevin: I did not feel bad for Murf
when he got frozen to the wall.

I said, serves you right.

Rob: You know what Murf, yeah.

Grow up a bit.

Come on.

Kevin: All right well, anything else
you wanna call out in in Supernova?

Rob: No, like I said, I like how they
spent that time, the second half of the

episode focusing on them settling in and
getting that preparation for season two.

It made it very much feel like we
didn't have to rush our way through.

We took our time and I appreciated
that to, to get them that feel and

get used to them within Starfleet.

But like I said, I'm gonna be
very interested to see whether it

moves forward or whether it just
becomes just another Star Trek show.

Because there was something unique
about, this race of all aliens, which

has never been done on Star Trek before.

Not a part of the Federation,
but following those ideals.

Obviously they couldn't keep
that up forever and ever.

But how they can advance, what makes
Prodigy unique without just blending

it into another Star Trek show.

Kevin: So the thing we called out in
Supernova that we wanted to explore in

Star Trek history was the sacrifice of
the Protostar, the decision to scuttle

a ship in order to save the crew
or save the day as the case may be.

Definitely a big moment every time
it happens, and it hasn't happened

that often in Star Trek history.

Rob: It ha it has happened quite a lot
in the the Christopher Pine versions.

It's either the Enterprise blowing
up or being destroyed or being ripped

apart, or being have to self-destruct.

I think it's happened in all three.

I, yeah it was destroyed at the end
of the first one and it was destroyed

again at the end of the second one.

And it was almost destroyed
on the third one and it was

ravaged to almost 80% destroyed.

But they still ambled
it back to Starfleet.

So I don't think we're
including any of those.

Cuz

Kevin: It's alternate history.

Doesn't

Rob: doesn't matter.

It's, it was the Kelvin line.

The Kelvin

Kevin: Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, that's right.

Rob: So yeah, none of those make any
emotional impact cuz if you keep on

doing it, you lose the emotional impact.

Kevin: Okay, so let's, yeah,
let's apply that filter.

Emotionally impactful sacrifices of

Rob: Definitely.

Definitely.

Kevin: Do you wanna pick a first one?

Rob: I'll pick.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm coming back to it.

I come back to it all
the time and I dunno why.

It's one that I don't watch, and this is
one of the another reasons why I don't

watch it anymore because it ripped out my
heart when it killed Da when they killed

David and then it ripped out my heart.

Cuz this is the first time ever, this
iconic vision as a young man when they

destroyed the Enterprise for me, the
first time in Star Trek III The Search for

Spock, when they destroyed the Enterprise,
when Kirk goes, what have I done?

I went, yeah, what the hell have you done?

That I didn't even hear McCoy
going, what you had to do, blah.

Bugger that.

Okay.

That was really like the heartache
of it, of having to blow up the

Enterprise with the Klingons on board.

And it's also, it's, yeah
it's a very much a Kirk move.

Sure, I'm gonna blow up the ship, but I'm
gonna take a lot of Klingons with them.

Kevin: That's right.

Yeah.

The ugh, the shot where the entire
surface of the saucer section bursts,

Rob: Just lifts

Kevin: and it just lifts
off and flies off in pieces.

So iconic.

I am amazed and also not surprised
that they couldn't resist putting

it in the trailer to the movie.

Like you went to Star Trek III knowing
you were going to see that moment

because it was in all the trailers.

But when you make something that,
that looks that amazing, you

kind of have to put it in the

Rob: And it's a tense moment as well
because they're the, they're teleporting

on and the boys are teleporting off.

You've got, Christopher Lloyd doing
incredible stuff of getting out, get

out, get outta there, and he's wonderful

Kevin: Oh, amazing.

Rob: performance.

John Larroquette is one of the
them, I think, and he gets blown

up on the ship and also that.

That shot of perspective.

So we've got it from front up and
you see the front dish section just

implode up and it's incredible.

But then you have the shot of them
from the planet of Genesis looking

up and you see that trail of fire.

It's such a small, yeah.

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

Kevin: it makes it feel so tangible.

Like how many ship explosions have we
seen that it's just like a superimposed

fireball as the ship like fades out.

This was not that.

This was, it was a storyboarded.

There are pieces to this destruction.

It feels yeah, very physical.

Rob: It, yeah, it does.

It feels real.

And we talked about it before.

It's another one of those sacrifices
that Kirk put on the table so

that he could get his friend back.

So that resurrection of Spock is
earned, but by the amount of loss.

And so for me, the first time
ever I saw the Enterprise,

I'm going, this is their ship.

And so much so it's gone that we don't get
it again for, pretty much an entire movie.

So it's an incredible, powerful moment.

As for young Rob watching it, when I was
like about 10, 11, it was heartbreaking

to go, I'm there going well okay, so not

Kevin: What does it mean?

Is Star Trek

Rob: Does that mean we're done?

Does that mean we've got Spock back now?

But do they just take a
bus to each planet now?

Is this what we do now?

Is it

Star, is it, Star bus?

Anyway, busk?

Anyway, so.

Kevin: It was a payoff to something
that was established in the Original

Series in the episode Let That Be Your
Last Battlefield, which is memorably the

allegorical episode where the two halves
of the race, one has white on the right

side and black on the left side, and
the other one is reversed and they're

at each other's throats for that reason.

In that episode the Enterprise is
commandeered and Kirk threatens to blow

it up, and there is a protracted sequence
where they give all of their authorization

codes and start the countdown timer
and then abort it at the last second.

But in Star Trek III, they use the exact
same command codes as they did in that

Rob: Nice.

Kevin: and we get to see the
destruction through to completion.

So it, it was a nice , payoff for
the fans as well, that moment.

Rob: And how was that for you?

Like I talked about Young Robert, a
10 11 seeing that for the first time.

How was

Kevin: Yeah.

I must have been about the same
age and it hit me just as much.

Like it was like this, the Enterprise
is the constant of Star Trek.

And you have blown it up in such a
devastatingly comprehensive way here.

Like, there is no, there's no sense
that, oh, it could come back from that,

it could rebuild that it'll buff out.

There is no, it breaks
up in the atmosphere.

And yeah, I had that same hollow sense
of this is the irre even more than Kirk.

This is the irreplaceable
character of Star Trek that

has just died before our eyes.

Rob: It did take it out of.

Kevin: How does Star Trek go on af after

Rob: Exactly.

And it's really, in many ways, it's
where it really, like everyone talks

about Star Trek II being when Star
Trek finally made it as a movie.

Whereas Star Trek, The Motion
Picture has the great Robert Wise

big sweeping widescreen shots.

But Star Trek III is the really
one where it's not that episodical

type thing of like ship gets
into a scrape and everyone's back

together again and they're fine.

Sure we had Spock die in Star Trek II, but
this is the one where they go, no, these,

this is a story that just doesn't reset.

So you don't go to Star Trek IV
and everything restarts again.

You have lost your ship.

You have lost, your son.

You've lost all this stuff.

And this is the point where I went,
this is not just, a Star Trek episode

on television, on a big screen.

This is where they're actually
putting in movie stakes.

If you were.

Kevin: And this is why it echoes
what we just saw in Prodigy so much

for me is like Prodigy as well.

We have that sense that the show is going
to be completely different in season two.

When they opened the hangar and the new
Protostar class ship was sitting there, I

was like, oh no, they're rolling it back.

And then they said, but
we're not going on that.

We're doing something different and good
on them to honor the ship by saying the

line will go on, but our story is going
somewhere else because the destruction of

the Protostar marks a point of no return,
where everything will be different.

Rob: And it's interesting because
like you said, we were introduced into

Star Trek with the opening credits
was the Enterprise, going from one

side of the screen to the next, and
that has been copied with every other

subsequent Star Trek show, whether
you've got The Next Generation new form

of the Enterprise sweeping through,
or you've got wonderful shots of

admiring the pylons on Deep Space Nine.

And even with Prodigy, the opening
sequence was the Protostar.

So you're there going no.

Even though we've copied the exact same
style of our opening credits as we've been

doing for the last 50 years, what makes
Prodigy isn't the ship, it's the cast.

So I always be interesting to see
whether they carry on with that.

So it's, even though its opening credits
were the Protostar front and center.

It doesn't matter what ship they're on,
it's the cast that are more important.

And that's never really been done before.

It's so the ship has become such an
invaluable part of the body of it.

Like people say about, a Woody
Allen movie or Ghostbusters, oh, New

York's another character in the film.

It is really is a case of the
ship has become a character.

So it'll be interesting to see whether
they discard that for the first time.

Am I saying that another animated show
is doing some continuity defying or

canon defying shifts with the protocol?

Lower Decks did with this
whole class of AI ships.

We'll wait and see.

Kevin: We'll wait and see.

I hope not.

Rob: So yeah, any other,
there weren't that many.

I had a bit of a look around too.

And

Kevin: Look, there is nothing that,
as is as strong a match as the

destruction of the Enterprise in
Star Trek III and well done to them.

Like how many times has Star Trek tried
to go back to the well in one way or

another of what, what worked in those
three films, especially Wrath of Khan.

So often they're like,
let's make Khan again.

let's

Rob: again, but now with Benedict
Cumberbatch and instead of Spock

dying, we'll have Kirk dying.

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: It's innovative and new.

Anyway.

Kevin: So taking an emotional beat from
that film and not exactly replaying it.

But finding that kind of emotional
place again, is something that is

rarely done as successfully as we
just saw in with the Protostar.

I did have a few to call out,
but they are relatively small.

So the first one I could think of
was in the original series episode,

The Doomsday Machine the big,
like it's worth watching again.

If you have not watched the original
series since it was remastered, this

to me is the most visual effects
heavy episode of the original series.

It's got that big sort of
what would you call it?

Like a cornucopia sort of uh,
planet killer device that's

got a fiery mo at the front.

Rob: What season?

What season is that one?

Kevin: It is season two,
episode six of Star Trek, the

Rob: So we are right in
the middle of prime, prime

Kevin: Prime Star Trek.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And this probably, I'm guessing,
more money than they ever spent

on visual effects in any other
episode of the original series.

And so the remaster, they likewise
spent a, an inordinate number

of of hours remaking all of that
in CG, and it looks glorious.

In that episode, this planet
killing machine, they try to stop

it, the phasers bounce off of it.

It's crippled starships,
they don't know what to do.

It's heading for populated centers and
the solution ultimately is to ram a full

ship, the USS Constellation if memory
serves, a captain pilots it down, pilots

the ship down the, because the autopilot
or whatever is damaged, captain has to

go down with the ship Captain pilots
it into the maw of the Doomsday device.

It explodes and is neutralized.

So an early example of a ship
that, it was already badly damaged.

The captain was a little unhinged by that
point as well because oh, it's tragic.

He had beamed his crew down to a
planet so that they would be safe,

and then the planet killer ate
the planet with the crew on it.

So he was a broken man after that.

Um, so like this was his redemption
to be able to save the day by

steering his ship into the device.

It's a good one.

The other ones that come to mind,
this is not so much a match.

The Next Generation season three,
episode five, Yesterday's Enterprise

where the Enterprise C appears into
the future, where it doesn't belong.

And the entire timeline changes
because they escaped a fateful battle

defending a Klingon outpost, and
then history does not remember them

coming to aid of that Klingon outpost.

And as a result Starfleet and
the Federation has been at war

with the Klingons for 22 years
by the time of this episode.

So we get to see the Enterprise
D transmuted into a war ship, and

Guinan is the only one who knows
something is wrong and convinces

Picard that what has to happen to
avert this 20 year war that everyone

else figures like it's facts of life.

She says, this war could have been
completely averted if the Enterprise C

had just been destroyed at Narendra III.

And so the rest of the episode is Picard
wrestling with the decision and then

the, everyone planning to send the
Enterprise C back into the time rift

where they know it's a suicide mission.

They're gonna get destroyed by
the Romulans when they get there.

But they decide to sacrifice the
ship with what's left of the crew,

a aboard and even a volunteer Tasha
Yar manning the tactical station.

And fans know what, what ends up
happening to Tasha Yar as a result

of her presence in the past there as

Rob: Yes, we do.

Yes, we do.

I've got another one I
found was from Voyager.

Star Trek Voyager.

You probably found this as well, Deadlock.

Kevin: Ooh I did not remember Deadlock.

Give it to

Rob: Ah, so it, it's the
it's season two, episode 21.

It's a famous episode for many
reasons where we have the birth,

the newborn Naomi Wildman.

This is of course, before Seven of
Nine has built their relationship with

them, but they're being chased down
by the the Vidiians, that's right.

So this is the early days of Voyager
where the main arcing villain, they tried

the Kazons and that didn't really work.

So they, then they tried the Vidiians
who were the organ harvesting creatures.

And so they are on their
way to taking over the ship.

And for whatever reason, some way, shape
or form, there are two Voyagers created.

There's a, the overly damaged Voyager
and their other regular Voyager.

Janeway and Janeway discuss the
only way that they could solve this

problem is that damaged Voyager has to
self-destruct so they can save the day.

So it's that, that, the
greater good is sacrificed.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs
of the many on a parallel version of it.

So there's two Voyagers and one
has to be destroyed to to stop the

Vidiians and this calamity happening.

And a newborn, Naomi Wildman's there
with the points on her head and

we all think, how did that hope?

Oh gee, I hope it was a hope
that baby was teleported out.

Kevin: Was it have you watched it

Rob: No, I haven't, I do want to
go back and watch it cuz the Ians

were a rather creepy creation

Kevin: The Vidiians were great.

I was sad to see them left behind.

But that's how Voyager went.

Rob: Forward.

Ever Forward.

Kevin: Yeah, there, there were
at least a couple of times.

Deadlock is one of them.

And there's another one where
there's like a copy of Voyager that

ends up like evaporating in space.

Like it's made up of this shapeshifting
matter that is conscious and convinces

itself that it is the ship and crew
of Voyager, but they all start melting

and it's it's like a tragic end as
they fall apart and then are discovered

by the real Voyager who go, oh, like
what's this weird cloud in space?

I don't know.

Let's keep

Rob: That's right.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

And it is that sort of like moment at
there and go, oh, what's this weird thing?

Oh, doesn't matter.

Kevin: not so much a sacrifice as a
glimpse of an ill fate of Voyager.

Like what if Voyager didn't make at home?

Let's play out one of those
scenarios and do some sci-fi

cheating so that it doesn't count.

The other one, the only other one
on my list was another one of those.

It is Star Trek Voyager season four,
episodes eight and nine Year of Hell,

which is another alternate timeline
episode where for a year, It is

like, it is a very epic two-parter
because again and again throughout

this, these episodes, we jump forward
in time and there's a title card

that says like, day 46, day 129.

And this is really a story of what
if Voyager didn't make at home?

What if one of the species whose territory
they entered along the way was menacing

enough, warlike enough and effective
enough at whittling down Voyager so that

they ultimately didn't make it home.

And there is the big cliffhanger
between the two parts is the moment

that Janeway finally decides staying,
asking the crew to stay on this ailing,

increasingly damaged Voyager is a death
sentence, and she sends them all out

in the escape pods and says, we will,
we'll meet again on the other side.

I look forward to hearing your
interesting stories when we do,

but you can see it in her face.

You can hear it in her voice that she
doesn't believe it as she's saying it.

And then part two is the skeleton
crew of just the bridge crew left on

the ship trying to keep it running.

They hide in a, in a nebula, and
because most of the hull is missing,

the nebula seeps into the ship, and
they have to deal with the toxic

gases and ultimately Janeway and
Voyager sacrifices itself at the end.

Janeway, last person standing on the
ship, she the rest of the bridge crew is

transported to some ally ships and Janeway
is left alone on board on the bridge.

And she chooses to ram the time ship that
is responsible for this alternate timeline

that occupies this entire episode.

And, but it's not so much of a
sacrifice as the other ones we've

seen because Janeway knows what
she's doing and she's doing it.

She says, everyone drop your time shields.

When I hit this thing, if I'm lucky
it will reset the timeline and none

of this will have ever happened.

But nevertheless, we get to see
Voyager nose first into another ship

and crumple and burst into flames.

And we know Janeway is sitting in
the pilot seat when that happens.

So it does have, it definitely
does have an echo of what we saw in

Prodigy this week with with Janeway
captaining the ship on its fateful final

Rob: Definitely.

Definitely.

Kevin: There you go.

Certainly many more instances of
self-destructs being started and

then aborted at the last minute, or
attempted and not working because

they the ship is too badly damaged.

Many threats of ship's self-destruction,
but going through with it is

a surprisingly rare event.

Rob: Exactly.

And if Galaxy Quests taught us
anything, it only gets to one and

then it doesn't actually blow up.

Cuz that's how every all
self-destruct episodes go.

So yes.

It was good to explore again,
go back into Star Trek III.

Why does it Star Trek III and Star
Trek V keep on drawing us back in.

Kevin: I'll keep finding
excuses until you watch

Rob: Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

It is all you are the, this is the
season finale of Subspace Radio.

It was your plan all along.